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How fun it is to speculate
Until there are reports of NK informing foreign ministries to withdraw all diplomats and the citizens from the state. Then this is going nowhere as usual.
Granted they have asked non-militants to evacuate the southern islands for safety (or risk bombardment) but they have yet to show new cards.
tl;dr NK being the same
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is NK desprate or something? do they not realize that if they go through with the threats they are making it would be suicide for the entire country?
i mean im far from an expert on this, but NK is to small of a country to be any threat to the US anyway... if they started a nuclear war they wont win. it will just be a bunch of meaningless deaths.
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On March 17 2013 07:07 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 06:00 Kaal wrote:On March 17 2013 05:38 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 16 2013 07:15 oBlade wrote:
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises. I don't think you understand the irrationality of the human mind... You make all of these comments, stockpile and talk about prolonging or engaging from NK as well as the cold war technology but that's all irrelevant, the mind of the average NK commander is very similar to that of a religious zealot, win or lose they will follow the word of (in this case not god) their leader. Let's just say that, whether you like it or not, if SK doesn't find a way to stop those "Cold War" projectiles from absolutely leveling Seoul in a matter of seconds (also your approximation of 50? is most certainly a gross underestimation, you think NK has 50 short ranged missiles? What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction (note, yes it's wikipedia so go to the citations where you see the weapon numbers on chemical and others) then NK has a massive amount of pushing room to do as they have been doing, the issue is that the longer we've waited to remove them (due to China but mainly politics) the more concrete their position gets and solidified their indoctrinated citizens are (I.E. the food received by the US is perceived as a gift to the Dear Leader and not as a mercy). The only real tactical plan is to infiltrate (if the information is not already known), find out where the majority of their munitions are, eliminate them with a massive barrage of military strikes to neutralize their offensive capabilities and then proceed with invasion. Odds are Seoul will lose quite a few citizens due to the retaliation but it would be buffered dramatically and it would not nearly equate the threat caused by NK developing nuclear arms (and testing them under ground). I mean maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but it's a pretty solid assumption NK is confident (especially their military) in their capabilities in engaging the United States (even though its a farce) and will surely kill everything it can until the last days. Even barring missiles, conventional artillery and rail artillery alone would level the city within seconds. Even the siege of Leningrad, the most destructive in history, failed to completely level the city, and that took 2,5 years of deliberately trying to do so - with both conventional artillery and airplane bombings. Seoul is many times larger, and SK has vastly superior military and airpower, there's not a chance in hell NK would be 'level the city within seconds'.
500,000+ Germans in Dresden alone in WW2 were slaughtered in a single night. Seoul is also extremely densely populated, a ton more than Dresden is or was, and we're talking much more advanced killing ability than existed in WW2. Thing is, in addition, the North Koreans are most likely going to use weapons that are meant for killing lots and lots of people, making matters worse.
On March 17 2013 06:48 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 06:05 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 17 2013 06:00 Kaal wrote:On March 17 2013 05:38 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 16 2013 07:15 oBlade wrote:
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises. I don't think you understand the irrationality of the human mind... You make all of these comments, stockpile and talk about prolonging or engaging from NK as well as the cold war technology but that's all irrelevant, the mind of the average NK commander is very similar to that of a religious zealot, win or lose they will follow the word of (in this case not god) their leader. Let's just say that, whether you like it or not, if SK doesn't find a way to stop those "Cold War" projectiles from absolutely leveling Seoul in a matter of seconds (also your approximation of 50? is most certainly a gross underestimation, you think NK has 50 short ranged missiles? What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction (note, yes it's wikipedia so go to the citations where you see the weapon numbers on chemical and others) then NK has a massive amount of pushing room to do as they have been doing, the issue is that the longer we've waited to remove them (due to China but mainly politics) the more concrete their position gets and solidified their indoctrinated citizens are (I.E. the food received by the US is perceived as a gift to the Dear Leader and not as a mercy). The only real tactical plan is to infiltrate (if the information is not already known), find out where the majority of their munitions are, eliminate them with a massive barrage of military strikes to neutralize their offensive capabilities and then proceed with invasion. Odds are Seoul will lose quite a few citizens due to the retaliation but it would be buffered dramatically and it would not nearly equate the threat caused by NK developing nuclear arms (and testing them under ground). I mean maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but it's a pretty solid assumption NK is confident (especially their military) in their capabilities in engaging the United States (even though its a farce) and will surely kill everything it can until the last days. Even barring missiles, conventional artillery and rail artillery alone would level the city within seconds. Absolutely, not only level the cities but it would decimate the entire frontline of the SK military forces on the DMZ. Everyone keeps thinking NK is some joke, if NK goes crazy (as it's apt to) then you're not going to see a few thousand dead, you're likely to see a few million South Koreans dead. You are highly underestimating the US air power if you think NK will get a chance to fire even half of their front line artillery. US will not make a first strike unless both China and Russia are on board. However, that doesn't mean that US will sit around doing nothing until SK get struck by artillery and chemical missiles from North.
Easier said than done. China isn't going to put itself in any sort of position that gives the US more ground. NK's sword waving is a good deterrent against US takeover of the entire peninsula, which is not what China wants, obviously.
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On March 17 2013 16:08 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:07 sushiman wrote:On March 17 2013 06:00 Kaal wrote:On March 17 2013 05:38 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 16 2013 07:15 oBlade wrote:
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises. I don't think you understand the irrationality of the human mind... You make all of these comments, stockpile and talk about prolonging or engaging from NK as well as the cold war technology but that's all irrelevant, the mind of the average NK commander is very similar to that of a religious zealot, win or lose they will follow the word of (in this case not god) their leader. Let's just say that, whether you like it or not, if SK doesn't find a way to stop those "Cold War" projectiles from absolutely leveling Seoul in a matter of seconds (also your approximation of 50? is most certainly a gross underestimation, you think NK has 50 short ranged missiles? What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction (note, yes it's wikipedia so go to the citations where you see the weapon numbers on chemical and others) then NK has a massive amount of pushing room to do as they have been doing, the issue is that the longer we've waited to remove them (due to China but mainly politics) the more concrete their position gets and solidified their indoctrinated citizens are (I.E. the food received by the US is perceived as a gift to the Dear Leader and not as a mercy). The only real tactical plan is to infiltrate (if the information is not already known), find out where the majority of their munitions are, eliminate them with a massive barrage of military strikes to neutralize their offensive capabilities and then proceed with invasion. Odds are Seoul will lose quite a few citizens due to the retaliation but it would be buffered dramatically and it would not nearly equate the threat caused by NK developing nuclear arms (and testing them under ground). I mean maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but it's a pretty solid assumption NK is confident (especially their military) in their capabilities in engaging the United States (even though its a farce) and will surely kill everything it can until the last days. Even barring missiles, conventional artillery and rail artillery alone would level the city within seconds. Even the siege of Leningrad, the most destructive in history, failed to completely level the city, and that took 2,5 years of deliberately trying to do so - with both conventional artillery and airplane bombings. Seoul is many times larger, and SK has vastly superior military and airpower, there's not a chance in hell NK would be 'level the city within seconds'. 500,000+ Germans in Dresden alone in WW2 were slaughtered in a single night. Seoul is also extremely densely populated, a ton more than Dresden is or was, and we're talking much more advanced killing ability than existed in WW2. Thing is, in addition, the North Koreans are most likely going to use weapons that are meant for killing lots and lots of people, making matters worse.
I tried to use the allied bombing campaigns as an example on the last page, but maybe it was too esoteric. The figure of 500,000 for Dresden was actually German propaganda. The actual number of casualties was in the vicinity of 25,000 people. For that matter, the raid happened on multiple nights. Only when you look at the entire strategic bombing campaign as a whole in the European theatre does it make sense to talk about a casualty figure on the order of 1 million people.
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On March 17 2013 16:15 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 16:08 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 17 2013 07:07 sushiman wrote:On March 17 2013 06:00 Kaal wrote:On March 17 2013 05:38 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 16 2013 07:15 oBlade wrote:
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises. I don't think you understand the irrationality of the human mind... You make all of these comments, stockpile and talk about prolonging or engaging from NK as well as the cold war technology but that's all irrelevant, the mind of the average NK commander is very similar to that of a religious zealot, win or lose they will follow the word of (in this case not god) their leader. Let's just say that, whether you like it or not, if SK doesn't find a way to stop those "Cold War" projectiles from absolutely leveling Seoul in a matter of seconds (also your approximation of 50? is most certainly a gross underestimation, you think NK has 50 short ranged missiles? What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction (note, yes it's wikipedia so go to the citations where you see the weapon numbers on chemical and others) then NK has a massive amount of pushing room to do as they have been doing, the issue is that the longer we've waited to remove them (due to China but mainly politics) the more concrete their position gets and solidified their indoctrinated citizens are (I.E. the food received by the US is perceived as a gift to the Dear Leader and not as a mercy). The only real tactical plan is to infiltrate (if the information is not already known), find out where the majority of their munitions are, eliminate them with a massive barrage of military strikes to neutralize their offensive capabilities and then proceed with invasion. Odds are Seoul will lose quite a few citizens due to the retaliation but it would be buffered dramatically and it would not nearly equate the threat caused by NK developing nuclear arms (and testing them under ground). I mean maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but it's a pretty solid assumption NK is confident (especially their military) in their capabilities in engaging the United States (even though its a farce) and will surely kill everything it can until the last days. Even barring missiles, conventional artillery and rail artillery alone would level the city within seconds. Even the siege of Leningrad, the most destructive in history, failed to completely level the city, and that took 2,5 years of deliberately trying to do so - with both conventional artillery and airplane bombings. Seoul is many times larger, and SK has vastly superior military and airpower, there's not a chance in hell NK would be 'level the city within seconds'. 500,000+ Germans in Dresden alone in WW2 were slaughtered in a single night. Seoul is also extremely densely populated, a ton more than Dresden is or was, and we're talking much more advanced killing ability than existed in WW2. Thing is, in addition, the North Koreans are most likely going to use weapons that are meant for killing lots and lots of people, making matters worse. I tried to use the allied bombing campaigns as an example on the last page, but maybe it was too esoteric. The figure of 500,000 for Dresden was actually German propaganda. The actual number of casualties was in the vicinity of 25,000 people. For that matter, the raid happened on multiple nights. Only when you look at the entire strategic bombing campaign as a whole in the European theatre does it make sense to talk about a casualty figure on the order of 1 million people.
I don't doubt you, but I find it extremely strange that every piece of American and British, not German, history literature I've come across puts the figure at 500,000+ plus. Then again, the actual figure being 25k wouldn't surprise me. WW2 is full of exaggerations.
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United States42607 Posts
On March 17 2013 17:20 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 16:15 oBlade wrote:On March 17 2013 16:08 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 17 2013 07:07 sushiman wrote:On March 17 2013 06:00 Kaal wrote:On March 17 2013 05:38 Hitch-22 wrote:On March 16 2013 07:15 oBlade wrote:
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises. I don't think you understand the irrationality of the human mind... You make all of these comments, stockpile and talk about prolonging or engaging from NK as well as the cold war technology but that's all irrelevant, the mind of the average NK commander is very similar to that of a religious zealot, win or lose they will follow the word of (in this case not god) their leader. Let's just say that, whether you like it or not, if SK doesn't find a way to stop those "Cold War" projectiles from absolutely leveling Seoul in a matter of seconds (also your approximation of 50? is most certainly a gross underestimation, you think NK has 50 short ranged missiles? What? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction (note, yes it's wikipedia so go to the citations where you see the weapon numbers on chemical and others) then NK has a massive amount of pushing room to do as they have been doing, the issue is that the longer we've waited to remove them (due to China but mainly politics) the more concrete their position gets and solidified their indoctrinated citizens are (I.E. the food received by the US is perceived as a gift to the Dear Leader and not as a mercy). The only real tactical plan is to infiltrate (if the information is not already known), find out where the majority of their munitions are, eliminate them with a massive barrage of military strikes to neutralize their offensive capabilities and then proceed with invasion. Odds are Seoul will lose quite a few citizens due to the retaliation but it would be buffered dramatically and it would not nearly equate the threat caused by NK developing nuclear arms (and testing them under ground). I mean maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but it's a pretty solid assumption NK is confident (especially their military) in their capabilities in engaging the United States (even though its a farce) and will surely kill everything it can until the last days. Even barring missiles, conventional artillery and rail artillery alone would level the city within seconds. Even the siege of Leningrad, the most destructive in history, failed to completely level the city, and that took 2,5 years of deliberately trying to do so - with both conventional artillery and airplane bombings. Seoul is many times larger, and SK has vastly superior military and airpower, there's not a chance in hell NK would be 'level the city within seconds'. 500,000+ Germans in Dresden alone in WW2 were slaughtered in a single night. Seoul is also extremely densely populated, a ton more than Dresden is or was, and we're talking much more advanced killing ability than existed in WW2. Thing is, in addition, the North Koreans are most likely going to use weapons that are meant for killing lots and lots of people, making matters worse. I tried to use the allied bombing campaigns as an example on the last page, but maybe it was too esoteric. The figure of 500,000 for Dresden was actually German propaganda. The actual number of casualties was in the vicinity of 25,000 people. For that matter, the raid happened on multiple nights. Only when you look at the entire strategic bombing campaign as a whole in the European theatre does it make sense to talk about a casualty figure on the order of 1 million people. I don't doubt you, but I find it extremely strange that every piece of American and British, not German, history literature I've come across puts the figure at 500,000+ plus. Then again, the actual figure being 25k wouldn't surprise me. WW2 is full of exaggerations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Casualties
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Why not just threaten the whole world while you are at it..
North Korea Threatens Japan with Attack
North Korea has lashed out at Japan for calling for "independent additional sanctions" against Pyongyang.
The North's official Korean Central News Agency carried a statement from the Foreign Ministry Sunday saying that it would be a fatal mistake for Japan if it thinks it will be safe when a war breaks out on the Korean Peninsula.
The statement warned that the Japanese would face a horrible strike if they collude with the United States.
The article appeared days after U.S. National Security Advisor Tom Donilon said Washington is willing to hold "authentic negotiations" with the North if it changes its behavior.
North Korea is furious about new U.N. sanctions imposed after it conducted its third nuclear test last month.
The new round of sanctions and an ongoing U.S. - South Korea military exercise sparked an angry response from Pyongyang, which said it is abandoning the armistice that ended the Korean War and is ending non-aggression pacts with South Korea.
Source
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^^love the headline haha
I have a feeling that he isnt a bad guy at all but just born into a really shitty and chaotic situation. In a different universe I wouldn't mind playing or watching some basketball games with him.
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That headline shows just how much of a joke everyone thinks he is.
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On March 19 2013 01:45 heroyi wrote:
^^love the headline haha
I have a feeling that he isnt a bad guy at all but just born into a really shitty and chaotic situation. In a different universe I wouldn't mind playing or watching some basketball games with him.
He came into power and had his chance to change. There were a lot of expectations for him to be different. He wasn't.
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I think that it would be very unwise for NK to declare war on anyone. Their military technology is stuck in th 70s-80s at best and I sincerely doubt they have a very plentiful supply of ammunition, so unless they have the Ark of the Covenant I don't think they'd last more than a few weeks (if that) against any modern military force.
Of course, they'd probablu be able to do a lot of damage to South Korea regardless, but I still don't think they'll last long after the initial damage is done.
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On March 19 2013 01:58 Ettick wrote:
I think that it would be very unwise for NK to declare war on anyone. Their military technology is stuck in th 70s-80s at best and I sincerely doubt they have a very plentiful supply of ammunition, so unless they have the Ark of the Covenant I don't think they'd last more than a few weeks (if that) against any modern military force.
Of course, they'd probablu be able to do a lot of damage to South Korea regardless, but I still don't think they'll last long after the initial damage is done.
China.
But yes, they shouldn't. And they won't. It's normal media sensationalisation.
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On March 18 2013 21:18 Kamate wrote:
I have to say, this looks very scary:
Naval forces around the world, beware!
If it wasn't such a terrible state of affairs for the north korean people, I'd hope the Kim Jong Dynasty would rule forever and bless us with amusing news.
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On March 19 2013 01:53 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:45 heroyi wrote:
^^love the headline haha
I have a feeling that he isnt a bad guy at all but just born into a really shitty and chaotic situation. In a different universe I wouldn't mind playing or watching some basketball games with him.
He came into power and had his chance to change. There were a lot of expectations for him to be different. He wasn't.
How and what could he possibly change?
Everybody thinks that this guy can single handledly change the nation in one swift pen stroke or one bark of a command. He lives with a council full of ignorant military jackasses who firmly believe in the ideas of "communism" i.e the current state they live in. If he strays away from those ideals then those generals will probably hang him with his own military. Whoever controls the military controls power (within the state) and the military is full of communists.
What is he going to do? Dissolve everything? NOPE. people will just call him crazy, an infidel, a traitor and proceed to tar and feather him. All he can really do realistically is keep the check and balance system by holding the military by his grip which he is doing a fantastic job with all of these "threats" that "he" keeps making to other countries (now to japan lol). If he fails to hold the military, then we are going to have another war-torn Africa with however many warlords rampaging for power.
We can't invade with SK and Japan as hostages to warfare. Not to mention the jackass China that is enabling NK.
We can't keep giving them food else their little community strengthens.
We, obviously, can't keep discussion of peace and treaty alive with them at all.
He can't do anything and neither can we until someone decides to make a move (hoping countries are discussing a covert op of some sort).
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On March 19 2013 01:53 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:45 heroyi wrote:
^^love the headline haha
I have a feeling that he isnt a bad guy at all but just born into a really shitty and chaotic situation. In a different universe I wouldn't mind playing or watching some basketball games with him.
He came into power and had his chance to change. There were a lot of expectations for him to be different. He wasn't.
Considering how badly the elites and military want to maintain the status quo I'm not sure he was ever capable of changing much of anything.
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On March 19 2013 02:05 IRL_Sinister wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:58 Ettick wrote:
I think that it would be very unwise for NK to declare war on anyone. Their military technology is stuck in th 70s-80s at best and I sincerely doubt they have a very plentiful supply of ammunition, so unless they have the Ark of the Covenant I don't think they'd last more than a few weeks (if that) against any modern military force.
Of course, they'd probablu be able to do a lot of damage to South Korea regardless, but I still don't think they'll last long after the initial damage is done. China. But yes, they shouldn't. And they won't. It's normal media sensationalisation.
This isn't "normal," even by NK standards. Yes it is most likely just more big talk, but afaik, this is the first time they are actively telling people left and right they will nuke their cities explicitly.
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On March 19 2013 02:21 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:05 IRL_Sinister wrote:On March 19 2013 01:58 Ettick wrote:
I think that it would be very unwise for NK to declare war on anyone. Their military technology is stuck in th 70s-80s at best and I sincerely doubt they have a very plentiful supply of ammunition, so unless they have the Ark of the Covenant I don't think they'd last more than a few weeks (if that) against any modern military force.
Of course, they'd probablu be able to do a lot of damage to South Korea regardless, but I still don't think they'll last long after the initial damage is done. China. But yes, they shouldn't. And they won't. It's normal media sensationalisation. This isn't "normal," even by NK standards. Yes it is most likely just more big talk, but afaik, this is the first time they are actively telling people left and right they will nuke their cities explicitly.
What is your idea of normal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_Raid
^^if they just did this recently I would be scared
but imo this is another bluff because they would be dead. And the folly of being a king without a kingdom.
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On March 19 2013 02:24 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:21 On_Slaught wrote:On March 19 2013 02:05 IRL_Sinister wrote:On March 19 2013 01:58 Ettick wrote:
I think that it would be very unwise for NK to declare war on anyone. Their military technology is stuck in th 70s-80s at best and I sincerely doubt they have a very plentiful supply of ammunition, so unless they have the Ark of the Covenant I don't think they'd last more than a few weeks (if that) against any modern military force.
Of course, they'd probablu be able to do a lot of damage to South Korea regardless, but I still don't think they'll last long after the initial damage is done. China. But yes, they shouldn't. And they won't. It's normal media sensationalisation. This isn't "normal," even by NK standards. Yes it is most likely just more big talk, but afaik, this is the first time they are actively telling people left and right they will nuke their cities explicitly. What is your idea of normal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_Raid^^if they just did this recently I would be scared but imo this is another bluff because they would be dead. And the folly of being a king without a kingdom.
Thanks for the link ; could make a good film scenario haha. More seriously, SK retaliated with their own attempt, but they never went through with it
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btw supposedly there was a coup attempt in NK. those who believed they should hold power vs kim jong un.
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![[image loading]](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130312-north-korea-jm-01.photoblog900.jpg)
3477
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EPT
