|
On March 15 2013 04:15 KwarK wrote:
Maybe it's just me but ten minutes seems like a really quick time from the first artillery attack to having higher ups discuss the situation, make an assessment and implement it. I can't conceive how giving grunts the freedom to escalate the conflict might possibly be viewed as a good thing.
I agree, 10-15 minutes isn't that long, considering. However, the general public seemed to disagree. It may have made matters worse that the North Koreans claimed they didn't suffer any losses, making people think that retaliation would have been more effective if it had come sooner. Just speculation on my part. (Official numbers from South Korea claimed there were actually North Korean losses, though).
On an unrelated note:
A former North Korean military officer who successfully fled from the totalitarian communist nation tells US News there is a rising sentiment of insurgency, as more and more of his countrymen learn that they don't have to accept the abject poverty and brutal living conditions surrounding them.
[...]
"If there was a start to war, I expect huge internal division—people against other people. It's not a war against North Korea, the United States [or] South Korea. It's a war against its own people," he said, speaking through a translator.
The North Korean regime's control over its people appears strong from the outside, he says. But inside, citizens are waiting for the beginning of another war so they can "vent their own anger to those people they want to get revenge against." This includes policemen who enforce the regime's strict social rules, or neighbors who may have fared better than those who face mass starvation or prison camps.
This thirst for change has come to a head under the leadership of Kim Jong Un, believed to be in his late 20s. The impertinent son of Kim Jong Il does not weigh the losses and gains of his decisions, the officer says, unlike his father who adopted a much more sophisticated awareness of long term effects.
Kim the younger recently insisted on the construction of 12 apartment buildings within a year in Pyongyang and forced thousands of soldiers to do the work in place of using heavy equipment. He also forced the continued construction of a hydroelectric plant in two years, instead of the proscribed 10, which is rife with leaks and malfunctions. According to some reports, this caused the death of his father.
[...]
"It's not possible to predict the outcome," he says. "We're some time from a tipping point, but the trends are not good if you're a North Korean leader."
The response from North Koreans will not likely include a popular revolution, the defector says. The regime maintains strict social and physical control and there are already signs of that strengthening. A "broker" or fixer used to charge $30 U.S. dollars to arrange a border crossing in 2000, when this officer left North Korea. Today that costs $5,000.
Source
|
i dont know why but koreans are very on edge when it comes to military reaction against north korea.
from what i can gather in the "shocking" report from the media, people went batshit crazy when some high ranking military officials went to go play golf. comments were things like "how can something like this happen", shortly after the report they're doing a full evaluation of government employees.
|
On March 15 2013 08:07 jinorazi wrote:
i dont know why but koreans are very on edge when it comes to military reaction against north korea.
from what i can gather the "shocking" report from the media, people went batshit crazy when some high ranking military officials went to go play golf.
No time for golf, gotta be prepared 24/7!
|
On March 15 2013 05:46 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 05:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:08 Azarkon wrote:On March 14 2013 16:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
I know you're being sarcastic, but Azarkon's idea is indeed terrible. It's been done before. When the Turkish nationalists took over western Turkey from the British, French, and Greeks, an international arrangement was made (especially after the disaster at Smyrna) to basically deport all the Greeks to Greece, and all the Turks and Muslims in Greece to Turkey. The repatriation was literally a disaster for Greek economy and society. Uh, it's your analogy that is terrible. The hypothetical North Korean refugees aren't residents / citizens of China. They're not members of Chinese economy / society. They're hypothetical refugees who would cross the border in the event of war. Not only does repatriation address one of the main cited Chinese concerns about supporting North Korea, but is also South Korean policy: South Korea has been asking China to repatriate to South Korea North Korean deserters for years. It is China that is refusing to do so out of its alliance with North Korea. But, as shown in recent weeks, the ties between China and North Korea are fraying. Chinese analysts and government mouth pieces are starting to call for China to abandon the rogue country and to strike a grand bargain with the US and South Korea. This is because there is growing belief within China that North Korea would sell out to the US in order to survive. Tal's sarcastic reply to you says enough. In the case of war, we're talking about a situation that would require moving insane amounts of people from one country to another. The analogy is just the same. It's not something you can just do simply overnight. It can be done over months, if not years, which is far more realistic. The fact you think it's a simple matter of moving people is insane. The European powers thought the same. Instead, it crashed the Greek economy and created an insane amount of poverty and all sorts of social issues, because moving tons and tons of people into a country in a sudden movement cannot immediately be accomodated. It takes time. In case of war, which you are taking about, the number of refugees could reach into the millions. Good luck sending all of those over to South Korea. You are extremely ignorant if you think such a thing is a simple task to both achieve and to accommodate. It's not. Sending them would be a logistical nightmare and South Korea instantly accommodating 100,000s to millions would be a disaster. Anyone can be sarcastic. It is among the most useless forms of rhetorical expression when not backed up by sound reasoning. Also, no one said it had to happen overnight. False premise -> false reasoning. The idea would be to gradually repatriate them to South Korea, who would in turn send them back to rebuild North Korea, as North Korea would not last >1 year in a war. Joining two countries that have fundamentally different socioeconomic conditions is never easy, but from what I understand it's what South Koreans want and are willing to sacrifice for. Thus, China is doing no one a favor by propping up North Korea on the excuse of 'refugees.'
Ok, this time without sarcasm. You said "In case all China worries about is refugees, they just need to initiate a program whereby all NK refugees are repatriated back to SK. Not a big issue and I don't think a SK bent on reunification is in a position to refuse them."
In that post you made something incredibly hard sound easy, with the implication that China are being needlessly obtuse over the whole issue. Sarcasm is a fair response to hyperbole. It seemed obvious that dealing with millions of brainwashed, starving refugees is in fact a big issue.
Anyway, it doesn't matter because in your later posts you have a more nuanced position, which I'd be happy to agree with. But don't take my sarcasm! 
|
On March 15 2013 05:01 Grettin wrote:Meanwhile.. N. Korea-based Websites InaccessibleShow nested quote +Internet users are reporting an inability to access North Korea-based websites.
Computer servers hosting websites of the .KP domain have not been reachable since early Wednesday, Asia time, except for a brief period early Thursday afternoon.
The source of the trouble is not known and there has been no announcement from Pyongyang.
Websites affected include the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA), the daily newspaper Rodong Sinmun and the Air Koryo airlines. Sites in China and Japan hosting North Korean propaganda sites have not been affected. The isolated country's radio and television broadcasts have also been operating normally.
Analysts say the Rodong Sinmun site suffers outages once a month on average, while KCNA has disappeared once every several months. The outages typically last from a few hours up to one day. But it is apparently unprecedented for all North Korea-hosted websites to go down simultaneously and for such a long time.
North Korea's media, which are state controlled, has not mentioned the extended website outage. Source
N. Korea blames S. Korea for own cyber attack
EOUL, March 15 (Yonhap) -- North Korea on Friday accused its enemies of launching cyber attacks against its Internet servers as the communist country threatens all-out war in response to ongoing South Korea-U.S. joint military exercises.
The (North) Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) monitored in Seoul said in a commentary that Internet servers operated by the state have come under intensive and persistent cyber attacks. The media outlet did not go into details, but suggested that the attacks have been happening for several days.
It said that Pyongyang is being targeted for cyber attacks by its enemies in retaliation of its firm stance against aggressive actions, vowing to confront any provocation head-on.
The commentary added that the cyber attacks are of significance because they are taking place while the United States and South Korea are conducting massive military exercises.
"We will not remain passive to the cyber attacks carried out by our enemies that have reached grave levels and are part of a larger plan to stifle the DPRK," the KCNA report said. The DPRK stands for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the North's official name.
South Korea and the United States kicked off their annual Key Resolve and Foal Eagle military drills in earnest this week. The two allies have repeatedly said the exercises are designed to repel attacks from the North, but Pyongyang has claimed they are a dress rehearsal to invade the communist country.
In response, the North in the past week unilaterally nullified the armistice agreement that ended the Korean War (1950-53) and declared it will not honor non-aggression pacts signed between the two Koreas.
Meanwhile, the report of a cyber attack was first reported on Wednesday when a Russian news wire service said access to the Internet in North Korea was blocked and that official sources believed the country may have come under a powerful cyber attack.
In the past, North Korea has been accused of carrying out cyber attacks against various websites in South Korea and the United States, but this is the first time the isolationist country has blamed foreign powers for attacking its servers.
Source
|
pretty remarkable that even after bruce willis, tom hanks, and <insert favourite war time star here> that even in a film, where it is supposed to give you 'some' idea of what real war is like that korea want to urge actions which just point to war. I can only imagine in rl the movies havent even got it lose to how bad it will be. Why do they want to be the country that instigates global hatred of them? they should all play sc2 more as a country, bo1000000, that will keep them occupied.
|
Whenever I see this thread on the info bar on the left i think "North Korea says the darndest things!"
nonetheless i think this is a serious threat (mainly to south korea) and i feel there should be a way to deal with the mysterium that is North Korea... How is it possible to keep oneself that isolated... i really don't think if North Korea were atop anything of market-value there would've been some nation or another with more involvment in this conflict...
|
Everyone who thinks this isn't a problem, imagine in 10 years when they hav functional ICBM loaded with warheads... Do you really think that's an impossibility? This is something that should have been dealt with long ago that was left to fester and now has infected humanities very principles, NK needs to be dealt with.
|
Holy fuck, more rocket testing. Any other medias reporting this?
NORTH KOREA LAUNCHES SHORT-RANGE MISSILES ON EAST COAST
SEOUL – North Korea has tested short-range missiles in the Sea of Japan (known as the East Sea in Korea), in an apparent attempt to counter-act joint U.S.-South Korean military exercises, South Korean news agency Yonhap reported.
“North Korea test-launched a short-range missile in the East Sea [Sea of Japan] this afternoon, amid the ongoing security crisis on the Korean peninsula following Pyongyang’s third nuclear test last month,” Yonhap news said.
The source, Yonhap said, was a military source within the South Korean government. The North Korean military launched two KN-02 short-range missiles into international waters, the report said.
KN-02 missiles are mobile missiles. Based on the Soviet-era OTR-21 Tochka, they are launched from the back of SCUD-like trucks (see above headline image) and, of all North Korean missiles, they have the shortest range, as the above BBC infographic shows.
The short-range missile is a domestic variant of the Syrian ‘Scarab A’ missile, and has a range of 120-140km. It is usually used to take out large building targets and, when miniaturized, can carry a small, tactical, nuclear load.
John Swenson-Wright senior lecturer in East Asian International Relations at the University of Cambridge told NK NEWS earlier today “the danger of uncontrolled escalation in this situation seems real and therefore something to be managed very very carefully.”
“The real problem is one of miscalculation and misjudgement by either side – with the North believing it can risk a provocation comparable to the 2010 Yeonpyeong shelling, and the South determined to respond decisively.”
Source
Korean source
|
On March 15 2013 22:50 Grettin wrote:Holy fuck, more rocket testing. Any other medias reporting this? NORTH KOREA LAUNCHES SHORT-RANGE MISSILES ON EAST COASTShow nested quote +SEOUL – North Korea has tested short-range missiles in the Sea of Japan (known as the East Sea in Korea), in an apparent attempt to counter-act joint U.S.-South Korean military exercises, South Korean news agency Yonhap reported.
“North Korea test-launched a short-range missile in the East Sea [Sea of Japan] this afternoon, amid the ongoing security crisis on the Korean peninsula following Pyongyang’s third nuclear test last month,” Yonhap news said.
The source, Yonhap said, was a military source within the South Korean government. The North Korean military launched two KN-02 short-range missiles into international waters, the report said.
KN-02 missiles are mobile missiles. Based on the Soviet-era OTR-21 Tochka, they are launched from the back of SCUD-like trucks (see above headline image) and, of all North Korean missiles, they have the shortest range, as the above BBC infographic shows.
The short-range missile is a domestic variant of the Syrian ‘Scarab A’ missile, and has a range of 120-140km. It is usually used to take out large building targets and, when miniaturized, can carry a small, tactical, nuclear load.
John Swenson-Wright senior lecturer in East Asian International Relations at the University of Cambridge told NK NEWS earlier today “the danger of uncontrolled escalation in this situation seems real and therefore something to be managed very very carefully.”
“The real problem is one of miscalculation and misjudgement by either side – with the North believing it can risk a provocation comparable to the 2010 Yeonpyeong shelling, and the South determined to respond decisively.”
SourceKorean source
I know North has a lot of artillery aimed at Seoul.... but I don't see the South taking this lightly and just sitting back for much longer to be honest. I expect some serious action to be taken soon now.
|
i'd like to think that it would be relatively "easy" (with appropriate confidentiality and timing) to take out most of their artillery/missiles, etc.. and it's sounding smarter and smarter every day.
|
I feel like US and SK are in talks with China about taking out NK and we're just waiting for a thumbs up from China. It's getting ridiculous already with NK.
|
On March 16 2013 01:02 ShoCkeyy wrote:
I feel like US and SK are in talks with China about taking out NK and we're just waiting for a thumbs up from China. It's getting ridiculous already with NK.
Actually it was reported few days ago that Obama (US) is in talks with China's new president.
Here's the article about it: In talks with Xi, Obama seeks China's cooperation on N. Korea
WASHINGTON, March 14 (Yonhap) -- In his phone talks with China's new leader Xi Jinping on Thursday, U.S. President Barack Obama emphasized the need for close cooperation between the two nations for the denuclearization of North Korea, according to the White House.
Obama "highlighted the threat to the United States, its allies, and the region from North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs and stressed the need for close coordination with China to ensure North Korea meets its denuclearization commitments," the White House said in a press release.
|
U.S. bolsters missile defense in response to North Korean nuclear threat: Hagel
Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced plans on Friday to bolster U.S. missile defenses in response to a growing nuclear threat from North Korea, adding 14 interceptors to a missile defense site in Alaska and deploying a radar tracking station in Japan.
Reuters
Longer article (CBS)
|
On March 16 2013 04:23 Grettin wrote:U.S. bolsters missile defense in response to North Korean nuclear threat: HagelShow nested quote +Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced plans on Friday to bolster U.S. missile defenses in response to a growing nuclear threat from North Korea, adding 14 interceptors to a missile defense site in Alaska and deploying a radar tracking station in Japan. ReutersLonger article (CBS)
Damn you beat me to it. This is rather unprecedented though that the US of all nations is actually going to some lengths to prepare in case of an attack. There wouldn't be any action if NK were as "lol" as the tactical reports make them out to be I'd think.
|
i have a feeling this is going to escalate for no reason (if it does). everyone is just poking each other trying to make the other one punch first then claim "he did it first!"
|
On March 16 2013 06:36 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 04:23 Grettin wrote:U.S. bolsters missile defense in response to North Korean nuclear threat: HagelDefense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced plans on Friday to bolster U.S. missile defenses in response to a growing nuclear threat from North Korea, adding 14 interceptors to a missile defense site in Alaska and deploying a radar tracking station in Japan. ReutersLonger article (CBS) Damn you beat me to it. This is rather unprecedented though that the US of all nations is actually going to some lengths to prepare in case of an attack. There wouldn't be any action if NK were as "lol" as the tactical reports make them out to be I'd think.
why wouldn't they? after enough threats to our homeland, it's time we take some precautions don't you think? I'm in San Francisco, 1/3 likely places to be attacked. I'm not saying NK has the ability, maybe they do, but if they do? I don't want to die because we laughed in NK's face because they couldn't build a rocket that could travel far enough, jokes on us then huh?
|
I know that looks serious, but consider a couple things. DPRK military hardware is basically a stockpile of Cold War technology. And it really is a stockpile, not some kind of bottomless pit of missiles. Now there's not much use for those weapons besides posturing if you're not in the middle of a war, and a great way to posture is to fire a few of them into the ocean just to prove they still work. But if you do that, you're going to only use a couple of your shortest ranged missiles (which you only have around 50 of and aren't building any new ones).
Now if war ever did come, you're not sealing your fate by being short 2 missiles, whereas you'd be a lot weaker if you made driftwood out of all your rockets at once. It's not really an escalation so much as trying to maintain parity with allied military exercises.
|
Overall, great opportunity for US expansion. Taking over the whole Korean peninsula rather than just the South would put us at China's border, which would be a huge political/strategic bargaining chip in the future.
|
LOL I love that all of NK's antics are aggregated into this thread
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
