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Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13910 Posts
May 03 2018 00:35 GMT
#3621
Even if you acept that NK's existence and everything they've done falls squarely at the feet of china, Its not true that they want NK to exist as anything near what its turned out to be. NK is the childstate of the USSR that China defends solely due to its geographical placement to the heart of china. China could not accept a US ally with a knife at their throat on the korean peninsula as much as it couldn't accept it in Vietnam. They're okay with Vienams current friendly nature with the US but they wouldn't accept US forces in vietnam like the US has in South Korea.

They've offered to reunite Korea if SK agrees to switch sides and join in alliance with China. SK refused for a variety of reasons. Its a more logical argument to say that SK is the reason NK exists in the first place.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32740 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-10 14:59:34
May 10 2018 14:58 GMT
#3622


Trump says he will meet Kim in about a month in Singapore. My dad did say there would be a real sign of progress if the Trump and Kim met instead of just Moon and Kim, so we'll see how much actually happens in a month. Hoping it isn't just some fanciful words thrown around and we get some actual progress on defusing tensions and ending the war.

In case anyone is wondering why Singapore and not the DMZ:

Singapore ... represents neutral turf for the two leaders. The city-state of 5.5 million people boasts security partnerships with the U.S., a North Korean embassy and strong ties with China.

Singapore’s government also has a history of putting together high-profile diplomatic events at short notice, notably hosting Chinese President Xi Jinping’s historic 2015 meeting with then Taiwanese counterpart Ma Ying-jeou. Still, Kim’s agreement to travel so far from the safety of Pyongyang -- the farthest he’s ever been as leader -- could be seen as a concession by North Korea, should it happen.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-10/trump-said-to-eye-singapore-for-kim-summit-as-prisoners-return
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 20:13:02
May 11 2018 20:02 GMT
#3623
North Korea is such a terrible place, right? Lots of suffering, people being oppressed, etc. We must deliver them freedom, save them... even by kidnapping them and taking them away from their families! I mean, who would possibly want to go back, right?
A dozen North Korean waitresses and their male manager who were praised for a daring escape from their government have claimed they didn't flee at all—instead, they were forcefully taken in a plot hatched by rival, U.S.-backed South Korea.

In April 2016, Heo Kang-il led 12 female workers from his North Korean restaurant in the Chinese city of Ningbo to South Korea, where Seoul's Unification Ministry reported them as having defected freely. North Korea quickly claimed they were kidnapped, however, this was widely dismissed on the outside as propaganda. But last night, on South Korean television, Heo himself admitted that the women were unaware they were being sent to South Korea and that the whole operation had been orchestrated by him and South Korea's spy agency.

"It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead," Heo told TV channel JTBC on Thursday, as translated by The New York Times.

At least three of the women also appeared on the program with their names withheld and their faces blurred. One of the trio said "I want to go home because living like this is not the life I wanted," adding, "I miss my parents."

I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9189 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 20:23:19
May 11 2018 20:19 GMT
#3624
What's your point? That woman was subjected to brainwashing her entire life and now is having a hard time adjusting to a normal life instead of shitty but predictable misery of a communist serf. If Fritzl's daughter said she was happier in her father's basement, would you send her back there?
You're now breathing manually
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 21:12:24
May 11 2018 20:40 GMT
#3625
If Fritzl's daughter said she was happier in her father's basement, would you send her back there?

But she didn't say any such thing. And the people who rescued her also don't say for themselves that they kidnapped her.

But I see you felt the need to bring up communism for no apparent reason, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering responding to you since you are clearly driven by ideological hatred.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 11 2018 21:22 GMT
#3626
It is a pretty wild story, but from the article the man who defected lied to them and told them they would die if they returned home. It seems he was the sole point of contact with SK intelligence services and feared the NK regime because he was older and had close ties to China. The whole thing sucks, but it seems to be the work of one man lying to a lot of people.

And NK has a terrible track record with the truth. I’ve seen their photoshopped fighter jets.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24673 Posts
May 11 2018 21:56 GMT
#3627
On May 12 2018 05:02 a_flayer wrote:
I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.

Why do you find it funny that people distrust a statement from North Korea that is at odds with others? Their statements are some of the most untrustworthy of any nation in the world. That has nothing to do with neoliberals.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
May 12 2018 14:53 GMT
#3628
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles/north-korea-to-dismantle-nuclear-test-site-may-23-25-state-media-idUSKCN1ID0H5

SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea has scheduled the dismantlement of its nuclear test site for sometime between May 23 and 25 depending on weather conditions in order to uphold its previous pledge to discontinue nuclear tests, state media reported on Saturday.


They're in "rollout" mode for the all of the agreements that were reached already. It looks like all of the positive news reports about Kim's sister at the Olympics were used as the testing stage, along with the major framework being agreed to either by that point or at the Olympics itself. (It was weird, even then, to have VP Pence near the North Korean delegation.)

This is a lot like a new product launch in the modern era, though they've actually do this type of stuff in Foreign Policy since at least the 1960s. (See "Nixon goes to China" for how some of this played out in the past.) In this case, "peace" is the product. The functional end of hostilities changes a massive amount of calculations across the entire region, and it's going to have profound effects. (There's also likely a price tag coming to the USA on this one, though considering the chance to drawdown forces in SK, that's actually an upfront payment to save costs.)

I'm not a fan of this rollout strategies, but this is going to such a massive shock to the "system" that people & groups need time to digest it. Then they can start to plan in accord with the new dynamic. That just takes time.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
May 12 2018 18:18 GMT
#3629
On May 12 2018 05:02 a_flayer wrote:
North Korea is such a terrible place, right? Lots of suffering, people being oppressed, etc. We must deliver them freedom, save them... even by kidnapping them and taking them away from their families! I mean, who would possibly want to go back, right?
Show nested quote +
A dozen North Korean waitresses and their male manager who were praised for a daring escape from their government have claimed they didn't flee at all—instead, they were forcefully taken in a plot hatched by rival, U.S.-backed South Korea.

In April 2016, Heo Kang-il led 12 female workers from his North Korean restaurant in the Chinese city of Ningbo to South Korea, where Seoul's Unification Ministry reported them as having defected freely. North Korea quickly claimed they were kidnapped, however, this was widely dismissed on the outside as propaganda. But last night, on South Korean television, Heo himself admitted that the women were unaware they were being sent to South Korea and that the whole operation had been orchestrated by him and South Korea's spy agency.

"It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead," Heo told TV channel JTBC on Thursday, as translated by The New York Times.

At least three of the women also appeared on the program with their names withheld and their faces blurred. One of the trio said "I want to go home because living like this is not the life I wanted," adding, "I miss my parents."

I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.


How on earth can you find it 'funny' that people are skeptical about the statements made by a nation that runs entirely on propaganda? If North Korea officially declared the sky blue people would start checking satellite images to see what they'd done to the sky.

If they've told the truth now it's far more a sign of a broken clock being right twice a day than people being unfair to them.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
CROSSDRESSER
Profile Joined May 2018
4 Posts
May 13 2018 05:39 GMT
#3630
--- Nuked ---
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
May 13 2018 06:32 GMT
#3631
On May 13 2018 14:39 CROSSDRESSER wrote:
dismissing everything the other side says as "propaganda" is a very popular tool of Western propaganda agencies..


When you're already in the "Baghdad Bob" category, no one is going to believe anything you say, though you do take those people seriously when they threaten you. Got nothing to do with counter-propaganda.


On a weird thought, there's a real chance this thread might actually be "done" at some point in the next year. That'd be pretty amazing.
Deleuze
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom2102 Posts
May 13 2018 09:26 GMT
#3632
On May 13 2018 15:32 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2018 14:39 CROSSDRESSER wrote:
dismissing everything the other side says as "propaganda" is a very popular tool of Western propaganda agencies..


When you're already in the "Baghdad Bob" category, no one is going to believe anything you say, though you do take those people seriously when they threaten you. Got nothing to do with counter-propaganda.


On a weird thought, there's a real chance this thread might actually be "done" at some point in the next year. That'd be pretty amazing.


North Korea will always say/do surprising and alarming things.
“An image of thought called philosophy has been formed historically and it effectively stops people from thinking.” ― Gilles Deleuze, Dialogues II
saocyn
Profile Joined July 2011
United States937 Posts
May 13 2018 11:22 GMT
#3633
You know that quote keep your enemies closer? yeah....things just seem to be going TOO smoothly. Now that i'm not for it...
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5570 Posts
May 13 2018 12:00 GMT
#3634
On May 12 2018 05:02 a_flayer wrote:
North Korea is such a terrible place, right? Lots of suffering, people being oppressed, etc. We must deliver them freedom, save them... even by kidnapping them and taking them away from their families! I mean, who would possibly want to go back, right?
Show nested quote +
A dozen North Korean waitresses and their male manager who were praised for a daring escape from their government have claimed they didn't flee at all—instead, they were forcefully taken in a plot hatched by rival, U.S.-backed South Korea.

In April 2016, Heo Kang-il led 12 female workers from his North Korean restaurant in the Chinese city of Ningbo to South Korea, where Seoul's Unification Ministry reported them as having defected freely. North Korea quickly claimed they were kidnapped, however, this was widely dismissed on the outside as propaganda. But last night, on South Korean television, Heo himself admitted that the women were unaware they were being sent to South Korea and that the whole operation had been orchestrated by him and South Korea's spy agency.

"It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead," Heo told TV channel JTBC on Thursday, as translated by The New York Times.

At least three of the women also appeared on the program with their names withheld and their faces blurred. One of the trio said "I want to go home because living like this is not the life I wanted," adding, "I miss my parents."

I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.

Yes, it's a terrible place. The whole labor camps, public executions by antiaircraft gun, 70% of the population in desperate need of food and a history of famines that kill millions, your tone strikes me as not having any background knowledge. Around 1,000 manage to defect every year and they don't go back. The total abandonment of their previous life, family, starting over alone, that's a huge decision even for people who have the opportunity. These people are already not your average citizen in that they enjoyed the privilege of working abroad in China. If you didn't decide and plan this for yourself then of course you wouldn't want it.

The fact that kidnapping is bad doesn't mean North Korea is not bad.

Further, it'd be an obvious face-saving gesture to try to protect your family once defecting from the DPRK to walk the state line and say that you were kidnapped anyway.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-13 17:10:30
May 13 2018 16:52 GMT
#3635
On May 13 2018 20:22 saocyn wrote:
You know that quote keep your enemies closer? yeah....things just seem to be going TOO smoothly. Now that i'm not for it...


Yes, things will become clear when Trump and Kim Jong Un meet.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
May 13 2018 17:24 GMT
#3636
On May 13 2018 21:00 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 05:02 a_flayer wrote:
North Korea is such a terrible place, right? Lots of suffering, people being oppressed, etc. We must deliver them freedom, save them... even by kidnapping them and taking them away from their families! I mean, who would possibly want to go back, right?
A dozen North Korean waitresses and their male manager who were praised for a daring escape from their government have claimed they didn't flee at all—instead, they were forcefully taken in a plot hatched by rival, U.S.-backed South Korea.

In April 2016, Heo Kang-il led 12 female workers from his North Korean restaurant in the Chinese city of Ningbo to South Korea, where Seoul's Unification Ministry reported them as having defected freely. North Korea quickly claimed they were kidnapped, however, this was widely dismissed on the outside as propaganda. But last night, on South Korean television, Heo himself admitted that the women were unaware they were being sent to South Korea and that the whole operation had been orchestrated by him and South Korea's spy agency.

"It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead," Heo told TV channel JTBC on Thursday, as translated by The New York Times.

At least three of the women also appeared on the program with their names withheld and their faces blurred. One of the trio said "I want to go home because living like this is not the life I wanted," adding, "I miss my parents."

I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.

Yes, it's a terrible place. The whole labor camps, public executions by antiaircraft gun, 70% of the population in desperate need of food and a history of famines that kill millions, your tone strikes me as not having any background knowledge. Around 1,000 manage to defect every year and they don't go back. The total abandonment of their previous life, family, starting over alone, that's a huge decision even for people who have the opportunity. These people are already not your average citizen in that they enjoyed the privilege of working abroad in China. If you didn't decide and plan this for yourself then of course you wouldn't want it.

The fact that kidnapping is bad doesn't mean North Korea is not bad.

Further, it'd be an obvious face-saving gesture to try to protect your family once defecting from the DPRK to walk the state line and say that you were kidnapped anyway.

Do you have a source for the 70% number? I was under the impression that the nutrion situation in NK improved somewhat.

While the life in NK is obviously pretty bad and the current regime is horrible, a_flayer rightly points out how many ridiculous nonsense stories from some tabloid about NK get taken seriously.
TL+ Member
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11501 Posts
May 13 2018 21:39 GMT
#3637
On May 13 2018 21:00 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 05:02 a_flayer wrote:
North Korea is such a terrible place, right? Lots of suffering, people being oppressed, etc. We must deliver them freedom, save them... even by kidnapping them and taking them away from their families! I mean, who would possibly want to go back, right?
A dozen North Korean waitresses and their male manager who were praised for a daring escape from their government have claimed they didn't flee at all—instead, they were forcefully taken in a plot hatched by rival, U.S.-backed South Korea.

In April 2016, Heo Kang-il led 12 female workers from his North Korean restaurant in the Chinese city of Ningbo to South Korea, where Seoul's Unification Ministry reported them as having defected freely. North Korea quickly claimed they were kidnapped, however, this was widely dismissed on the outside as propaganda. But last night, on South Korean television, Heo himself admitted that the women were unaware they were being sent to South Korea and that the whole operation had been orchestrated by him and South Korea's spy agency.

"It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead," Heo told TV channel JTBC on Thursday, as translated by The New York Times.

At least three of the women also appeared on the program with their names withheld and their faces blurred. One of the trio said "I want to go home because living like this is not the life I wanted," adding, "I miss my parents."

I also find it quite funny how North Korea's statements were dismissed as propaganda. People often love to dismiss points of views they disagree with or find otherwise unsuitable to their existing ideas as propaganda, don't they? Something something neoliberals.

Yes, it's a terrible place. The whole labor camps, public executions by antiaircraft gun, 70% of the population in desperate need of food and a history of famines that kill millions, your tone strikes me as not having any background knowledge. Around 1,000 manage to defect every year and they don't go back. The total abandonment of their previous life, family, starting over alone, that's a huge decision even for people who have the opportunity. These people are already not your average citizen in that they enjoyed the privilege of working abroad in China. If you didn't decide and plan this for yourself then of course you wouldn't want it.

The fact that kidnapping is bad doesn't mean North Korea is not bad.

Further, it'd be an obvious face-saving gesture to try to protect your family once defecting from the DPRK to walk the state line and say that you were kidnapped anyway.


Yeah, don't they have the whole thing where they will punish basically anyone distantly related to you if you defect? And "punish" can easily mean torture camp in NK.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-16 12:28:25
May 16 2018 10:39 GMT
#3638
Seems like peace is off the table again. As per usual, its the fault of American diplomacy. Or y'know, lack thereof.

A completely reasonable position from DPRK is detailed in the tweet below or the picture in the spoiler.


+ Show Spoiler +
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdSVr5ZVwAAgAyN.jpg


But something tells me that this is going down in history as yet another failure of DPRK to comply.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
May 16 2018 20:49 GMT
#3639
That was quick. It doesn't matter anyways hopefully, as the main mover appear to be Xin Jinping, the leader of China.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
May 17 2018 08:59 GMT
#3640
On May 13 2018 14:39 CROSSDRESSER wrote:
dismissing everything the other side says as "propaganda" is a very popular tool of Western propaganda agencies..


They're an autocratic dictatorship with absolute media control. and you think their media isn't propaganda?

Can you think of any regime in history where those two things didn't go together?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
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