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On April 30 2018 08:20 LegalLord wrote:
Trump does deserve a pretty significant "atta boy" for his contribution, though. The prize would, if keeping with old tradition, go to Kim and Moon.
We all know Dennis Rodman is getting a part of the award. As much as that should be a joke, he's been the clearest public line of communication between NK and anyone else for several years. We'll see if he's at the Kim-Trump meeting, if he is, expect some hilarious lobbying for part of the award.
It's going to be interesting to see what deals were agreed to. We aren't getting all of these public statements without deals already done, specifics agreed to and long-term planning complete. There's actually a good chance the final agreements were complete during the Olympics, which would explain the NK group showing up, CNN's hilarious hagiography of Kim's sister and the way some of the optics were run during the Olympics.
Given the big move to using high-level couriers by the Trump Administration, it means Pence's group was there to finish up agreements and then bring things back.
It's going to take a long while for them to give Kim a "nicer" public image for this to work. A few are speculating they'll run a version of what the USA did in post-WW2 with Japan. (The Emperor's image was made pristine so the culture could keep functioning.) Ugly work when you understand what's going on, but countries that collapse are far worse for everyone. What Kim's personal exit strategy for this also a big open question. King of Thailand approach?
Dates to keep an eye on are 25 June & 27 July. 25 June is the start of the war in 1950, while 27 July was the end of the direct conflict in 1953. I'd expect Kim to be in Washington, DC to sign some ceremonial documents on one of those days.
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Whatever parts of the North Korean regime will be whitewashed in the media of their horrific deeds will give clues on which parts of the regime will be required for cooperation, much like how the image of the wehrmacht was whitewashed during the cold war.
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We have a long way to go before anything of substance happens. These are historic events for sure, but it will be years before we see if it is anything more than just words. My main concern is that the Trump administration will take those words as victory, rather than wait to see if there are real results.
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This could turn out to be his "Mission Accomplished" moment.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Or his Bin Laden moment. Depends how it goes.
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On May 01 2018 02:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Whatever parts of the North Korean regime will be whitewashed in the media of their horrific deeds will give clues on which parts of the regime will be required for cooperation, much like how the image of the wehrmacht was whitewashed during the cold war.
Well that's how it works in real world, there must be some clear minded people even in the worst country/state who did nothing wrong and made no harm to people, we just don't know that.
There are no bad nations, and bad people tends to appear everywhere, just in different scale.
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I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in.
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Dennis Rodman takes credit for pushing North Korean talksFormer NBA star Dennis Rodman in a new interview said he believes his work in North Korea “resonated” to facilitate the current talks over Pyongyang’s nuclear program. Rodman told TMZ that he gave North Korean leader Kim Jong Un a copy of one of President Trump’s books. Rodman reportedly gave Kim "The Art of the Deal" during a visit in 2017. “I think he didn’t realize who Donald Trump was at that time,” Rodman said of Kim. “I think that has resonated until this whole point now. ... I don’t ask Donald Trump for anything. You know, I like Donald Trump. He’s a good friend,” Rodman, a former contestant on "Celebrity Apprentice," said. “And I’ve always asked him to talk to me because he wants the people of North Korea — and the government over there asked me to talk to Donald Trump about what they want and how we can solve things.” http://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/385479-dennis-rodman-takes-credit-for-pushing-north-korean-talks
Dennis Rodman Nobel Peace Prize when?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
He certainly deserves some form of prize. Visiting Kim regularly at the height of tensions, the guy has guts.
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On May 01 2018 05:17 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 02:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Whatever parts of the North Korean regime will be whitewashed in the media of their horrific deeds will give clues on which parts of the regime will be required for cooperation, much like how the image of the wehrmacht was whitewashed during the cold war. Well that's how it works in real world, there must be some clear minded people even in the worst country/state who did nothing wrong and made no harm to people, we just don't know that. There are no bad nations, and bad people tends to appear everywhere, just in different scale.
That is how it works in the real world, which is why I am refering to the real world. What world do you think I am referring to exactly! I'm not sure why you are responding as if I am referring to a imaginary world.
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On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in.
Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now.
It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time.
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United States42950 Posts
On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time.
This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent.
Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China.
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On May 02 2018 11:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time. This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent. Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China.
If China completely cut off North Korea, it would never have even gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of Chinese support. NK is entirely China's fault.
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On May 02 2018 20:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 11:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time. This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent. Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China. If China completely cut off North Korea, it would never have even gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of Chinese support. NK is entirely China's fault.
What kind of logic is that?
If the US would have nuked NK, it would have never gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of US restraint! NK is entirely the US' fault!
And yes, there are good reasons, why the US didn't nuke. Same holds true for China not cutting off NK.
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On May 02 2018 20:56 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 20:40 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 11:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time. This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent. Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China. If China completely cut off North Korea, it would never have even gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of Chinese support. NK is entirely China's fault. What kind of logic is that? If the US would have nuked NK, it would have never gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of US restraint! NK is entirely the US' fault! And yes, there are good reasons, why the US didn't nuke. Same holds true for China not cutting off NK.
Way back when, when the possibility of actually invading North Korea came up, military conflict with China was ultimately the major deterrent. Long before any of this nuclear stuff. If China would have said "Nah, fuck NK", we wouldn't be here. Saying the US should have nuked NK and saying China shouldn't have defended NK are not remotely the same things.
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On May 02 2018 21:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 20:56 mahrgell wrote:On May 02 2018 20:40 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 11:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time. This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent. Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China. If China completely cut off North Korea, it would never have even gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of Chinese support. NK is entirely China's fault. What kind of logic is that? If the US would have nuked NK, it would have never gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of US restraint! NK is entirely the US' fault! And yes, there are good reasons, why the US didn't nuke. Same holds true for China not cutting off NK. Way back when, when the possibility of actually invading North Korea came up, military conflict with China was ultimately the major deterrent. Long before any of this nuclear stuff. If China would have said "Na, fuck NK", we wouldn't be here. Saying the US should have nuked NK and saying China shouldn't have defended NK are not remotely the same things.
It makes absolutely no sense to say China shouldn't have defended NK...
That sounds like wishful thinking from an American perspective, but is completely absurd from any rational point of view where China actually acts in its own interests.
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Mohdoo point is one of the stupidest I've ever read. Referring to NK as China? Lol...
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On May 02 2018 21:12 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 21:06 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 20:56 mahrgell wrote:On May 02 2018 20:40 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 11:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2018 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On May 01 2018 05:40 Sermokala wrote:
I think china is more behind this then they will ever admit or want the world to know. A way to get out of the responsibility for whats happened in north korea but a way to solve the problem all the same. They will be able to stand up to the world and state that they don't want US forces in korea as a matter of national security and gain it with the tacit understanding that its payment for solving the korean problem from other powers. Trump is going to be known probably as the guy who out crazied the North koreans but I doubt that anyone will seriously give him the respect that the feat would give him if he was truly responsible for the peace deal.
Mad world we live in. Agreed. This entire time, North Korea has effectively just been an arm of China. North Korea is technically a separate country, but in terms of effectiveness, North Korea is just China. China is 100% of the reason North Korea was allowed to exist and was able to continue to exist. But as China tries to rebrand itself to the world, it is in their interest to be "uninvolved" with these peace talks because it reminds the world it was China the whole fucking time. China is madly obsessed with world image right now. It's actually kind of frustrating. I really wish the US and all other countries just referred to North Korea as China the whole time. This isn't correct. While they have historically benefited from protection from their Chinese alliance they have pursued their own policy. China has not benefited from their relationship lately and has absolutely no interest in NK having an independent nuclear deterrent. Just as Cuba was not the Soviet Union, so NK isn't China. If China completely cut off North Korea, it would never have even gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of Chinese support. NK is entirely China's fault. What kind of logic is that? If the US would have nuked NK, it would have never gotten to this point. NK only exists in its modern form because of US restraint! NK is entirely the US' fault! And yes, there are good reasons, why the US didn't nuke. Same holds true for China not cutting off NK. Way back when, when the possibility of actually invading North Korea came up, military conflict with China was ultimately the major deterrent. Long before any of this nuclear stuff. If China would have said "Na, fuck NK", we wouldn't be here. Saying the US should have nuked NK and saying China shouldn't have defended NK are not remotely the same things. It makes absolutely no sense to say China shouldn't have defended NK... That sounds like wishful thinking from an American perspective, but is completely absurd from any rational point of view where China actually acts in its own interests.
I'm not saying China isn't reasonable in defending NK. They had a lot of good, selfish reasons for defending NK. It's no different than the US defending Israel. Israel would have never made it this far had it not been for the US. Every issue involving Israel is 100% our fault. We have a lot of good reasons for supporting Israel, but it doesn't mean we are absolved of the negative consequences/instability created by Israel.
China had an interest in defending NK. They got a benefit out of defending NK. They weighed the pros and cons and decided NK was worth keeping around. As such, all NK actions thereafter were only possible because of China.
Looking out for what is best for you doesn't absolve you from the ethics of the things you do.
On May 02 2018 21:17 SoSexy wrote:
Mohdoo point is one of the stupidest I've ever read. Referring to NK as China? Lol...
Where would NK be right now if China hadn't been willing to defend NK? Same place Israel would be if the US never supported Israel.
Ultimately, China was the reason Truman decided not to bomb North Korea.
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On May 02 2018 21:17 SoSexy wrote:
Mohdoo point is one of the stupidest I've ever read. Referring to NK as China? Lol...
The backing of China is the reason NK exists in the first place…….
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United States42950 Posts
On May 02 2018 23:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 21:17 SoSexy wrote:
Mohdoo point is one of the stupidest I've ever read. Referring to NK as China? Lol... The backing of China is the reason NK exists in the first place…….
That doesn't make the two places one.
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EPT
