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United States24650 Posts
On December 12 2012 11:51 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 11:47 micronesia wrote:On December 12 2012 11:35 sam!zdat wrote:
In this case, that will happen when students start defaulting on their debt, die without paying it, and so on. Well you can't default on student debt, and most students don't die for many decades after they go to college, so this doesn't seem like a looming bubble to me. Well, with any luck, that won't be the case with more fair student credit considerations.
I would be interested to hear of a proposed system that is balanced in that it does not make student debt into a noose around your neck and at the same time does not encourage 18 year olds to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt at top schools, immediately declare bankruptcy, default on their loans, and start their credit history over, 7 years later, or however long the current rules are.
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Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university.
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On December 12 2012 11:58 Pseudoku wrote:
Maybe they need to implement a co-op system like at UWaterloo.
Co-op helps considerably (depending on program) with student expenses from my experience. Basically I haven't had to take a student loan since my first year (they actually wouldn't give me any loans because I was making enough money from my co-op job). I made enough from my co-op job to cover rent and tuition, plus have a good amount to spare [which means I can pay off my debt as soon as I graduate]. My co-op sequence does 4 months work, 4 months study, 4 months work, 4 months study, etc. so the 4 months you work covers (or helps) with the expenses from the 4 months of study.
Edit: It also gives 2 years of work experience before you graduate!
Yeah this is the program that they have at my school, for Chemical Engineering at least. Basically everyone in our program gets a job that pays ~$20/hr, some of them even provide you housing if the job isn't near your home.
It really helps pay for college for those that don't have scholarships, and for those who do it is like $10000ish dollars earned each co-op term.
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United States24650 Posts
On December 12 2012 12:07 OsoVega wrote:
Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university.
Is there evidence which shows that the federal involvement in student loans is what causes tuition to be so high?
Regardless, if your suggestion was enacted I wonder how many innocent students would get screwed by it even though they were actually going to get a good job and pay back their loan after graduating.
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On December 12 2012 12:05 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 11:51 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 11:47 micronesia wrote:On December 12 2012 11:35 sam!zdat wrote:
In this case, that will happen when students start defaulting on their debt, die without paying it, and so on. Well you can't default on student debt, and most students don't die for many decades after they go to college, so this doesn't seem like a looming bubble to me. Well, with any luck, that won't be the case with more fair student credit considerations. I would be interested to hear of a proposed system that is balanced in that it does not make student debt into a noose around your neck and at the same time does not encourage 18 year olds to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt at top schools, immediately declare bankruptcy, default on their loans, and start their credit history over, 7 years later, or however long the current rules are.
I think UWaterloo's co-op system is nice for this. The Government of Ontario [Canada] gives businesses who hire co-op students some tax credits [http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/credit/cetc/]. I will get my degree with little to no debt while gaining 2 years of work experience in a related field.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Obviously what needs fixing is not the loan system but the cost of tuition itself.
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On December 12 2012 12:11 Souma wrote:
Obviously what needs fixing is not the loan system but the cost of tuition itself.
Unfortunately, the two are pretty much directly linked. And to those who place even a majority of the blame on the students of all people need to take long hard look at the labor market in the United States with education and wage levels in mind. Sure, there are tons of students out there pissing away their loan money, but I also know a lot of hard working kids who majored in their passion and are getting royally screwed, even some STEM'ers.
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I'd like to add that the thing about creative majors is that you have to be creative about how you monetize it. They're generally not useless, you just have to extend your creativity into broader areas of your life.
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What sucks is I dont really feel like undergrad necessarily prepares you for the workforce (at least in Mechanical Engineering at MSU). Granted maybe I could have tried more in school and my experience would be different.......but everyone I have spoken to feels the same way.
The problem is though.......even though college doesn't provide you with a tangible skill in most cases, you still need it to get a job due to competition etc. It seems like a big scam. The more people with college degrees the more you need one to compete for jobs because of HR criteria. The more universities can charge and the less they are motivated to provide you with a better education.
Seems like one big fucked up feed back loop (just like the global economy nowadays where it feels like we are in a race to the bottom  )
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
College is what you make out of it. It's not some magical entity that grants you +10 to job and life sk33lz. It is wise to intern, network, and study, or else you're not much different from what you were in high school once you graduate... just older, and more tolerant to alcohol.
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On December 12 2012 12:37 Souma wrote:
College is what you make out of it. It's not some magical entity that grants you +10 to job and life sk33lz. It is wise to intern, network, and study, or else you're not much different from what you were in high school once you graduate... just older, and more tolerant to alcohol.
It doesnt provide you a skill though. I found mechanical engineering to be so broad its almost like reading a pamphlet. If I had a tangible skill or something I'd feel more confident and feel like my time at college was worth it (I know it was worth it in a sense that it was basically required for me to get a job nowadays). I just feel like something is wrong, either with the curriculum or what is expected you or something. The way the system works nowadays from my experience is broken.
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On December 12 2012 10:28 Klipsys wrote:
One of the problems is no accountability for people's majors. Really, anyone majoring in art history/English/ liberal arts better have a really good fucking idea what they're getting themselves into. Another issue is EVERYONE thinking they need to go to college. There is a stigma attached with not having a degree, and it's disturbing. We need to adjust our thinking to believe that trade-schools are just as worthy of an investment of time as a degree. Owning your own plumbing business is not an awful thing, and at this point plumbers are doing better than most 9-5 desk jockeys.
THIS
This is exactly right. I think literally the majority of Americans go to college because they think "it's what you do after high school" as goes the line from Orange County (the movie with Jack Black from 2002). If you don't go to college, then somehow you are only half a person. So they don't know what they want to do, but they know they have to eventually otherwise they'll hate themselves forever, and it only gets harder to finish a degree as you get older. Then they just take random classes for a few years racking up debt trying to figure out something they "like" (because Americans are so far removed from reality that they think any job you don't like doing you should either be a bitch/douche to everyone and take it out on them, or quit).
Well that's all well and good (not really but that's the expression) except for the fact that most people would rather learn about psychology, art, and dancing then math and chemistry (aka the hard sciences). Since Americans are so far removed from reality that life's not always like it is in the movies where you become a paleontologist like Ross in Friends, or do whatever Chandler did, sitting in an office getting paid a lot of money, or being an actor like Joey, and don't realize that in the real world half your day is working and it sucks (it's "work", if it was supposed to be fun, it would be called "play"), and the other half is trying to stay caught up with all of your home chores. Once a year you get to go on vacation and on the weekends you can watch football or whatever.
Until people get a clue, this will be an ongoing problem. The funny thing is, college really isn't really prepare you for your field very well most of the time. Most of what you do at work is a combination of on the job training, and having common sense, which taking multiple choice tests and copying and pasting essays from sparknotes sadly doesn't help with. I'm not saying an education isn't necessary for a lot of fields, but for at least half of what we would consider decent paying jobs, it shouldn't be required. What employers should be more concerned with is training people properly themselves, and then seeing how it goes on a probationary period. Then you've got people that are terrible at their job and/or hate their job.
tldr; Americans are terrible at picking majors and taking life seriously, and employers perpetuate the fallacy because they're too lazy to properly find the right people for the right jobs.
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On December 12 2012 12:41 theinfamousone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:28 Klipsys wrote:
One of the problems is no accountability for people's majors. Really, anyone majoring in art history/English/ liberal arts better have a really good fucking idea what they're getting themselves into. Another issue is EVERYONE thinking they need to go to college. There is a stigma attached with not having a degree, and it's disturbing. We need to adjust our thinking to believe that trade-schools are just as worthy of an investment of time as a degree. Owning your own plumbing business is not an awful thing, and at this point plumbers are doing better than most 9-5 desk jockeys. THIS This is exactly right. I think literally the majority of Americans go to college because they think "it's what you do after high school" as goes the line from Orange County (the movie with Jack Black from 2002). If you don't go to college, then somehow you are only half a person. So they don't know what they want to do, but they know they have to eventually otherwise they'll hate themselves forever, and it only gets harder to finish a degree as you get older. Then they just take random classes for a few years racking up debt trying to figure out something they "like" (because Americans are so far removed from reality that they think any job you don't like doing you should either be a bitch/douche to everyone and take it out on them, or quit). Well that's all well and good (not really but that's the expression) except for the fact that most people would rather learn about psychology, art, and dancing then math and chemistry (aka the hard sciences). Since Americans are so far removed from reality that life's not always like it is in the movies where you become a paleontologist like Ross in Friends, or do whatever Chandler did, sitting in an office getting paid a lot of money, or being an actor like Joey, and don't realize that in the real world half your day is working and it sucks (it's "work", if it was supposed to be fun, it would be called "play"), and the other half is trying to stay caught up with all of your home chores. Until people get a clue, this will be an ongoing problem. The funny thing is, college really isn't really prepare you for your field very well most of the time. Most of what you do at work is a combination of on the job training, and having common sense, which taking multiple choice tests and copying and pasting essays from sparknotes sadly doesn't help with. I'm not saying an education isn't necessary for a lot of fields, but for at least half of what we would consider decent paying jobs, it shouldn't be required. What employers should be more concerned with is training people properly themselves, and then seeing how it goes on a probationary period. Then you've got people that are terrible at their job and/or hate their job.tldr; Americans are terrible at picking majors and taking life seriously, and employers perpetuate the fallacy because they're too lazy to properly find the right people for the right jobs.
I agree with this all completely. IMO all of this you need to go to college thing is driven by employers.
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Frankly, I have very little pity for people who go to college and rack up ridiculous amounts of debt without any thought or consideration to the future. Far, far too many students go to either private or out-of-state universities and end up paying $80,000 for a bachelor's degree they could have paid much, much less for if they bothered to actually shop around. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to look down on community colleges as somehow beneath them, when in reality doing your first two years at a community college not only reduces your out of pocket expenses, but all but guarantees your admittance to a state university so as long as you don't do abhorrently.
And another thing: Not everyone has to go to college. But, for whatever reason, people seem to look down upon those who work skilled blue collar jobs. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and HVAC personal all make respectable incomes without college education. Tech schools need to be more strongly emphasized by the high school system instead of this "GO TO COLLEGE" mentality that is poured down the throats of people who have no interest in it.
At the end of the day, were I not planning on going to school for Law, I would not even be in college.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On December 12 2012 12:40 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:37 Souma wrote:
College is what you make out of it. It's not some magical entity that grants you +10 to job and life sk33lz. It is wise to intern, network, and study, or else you're not much different from what you were in high school once you graduate... just older, and more tolerant to alcohol. It doesnt provide you a skill though. I found mechanical engineering to be so broad its almost like reading a pamphlet. If I had a tangible skill or something I'd feel more confident and feel like my time at college was worth it (I know it was worth it in a sense that it was basically required for me to get a job nowadays). I just feel like something is wrong, either with the curriculum or what is expected you or something. The way the system works nowadays from my experience is broken.
Yeah that's what I said haha. It doesn't provide you a skill unless you take advantage of other opportunities that are provided to college students, such as internships/lab assistants/whathaveyou. I definitely do think colleges should include in their curriculum some kind of skill-based training, but there are plenty of opportunities already available.
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The "bubble bursts" by the debt load on consumers being too high to spend their income. Since default isn't possible with student loans, the debt will eventually be too high of a burden for the economy to function at potential, and prevent people from borrowing to buy things like houses and cars, as well as buy more basic things like food. I imagine it will act more as a multiplier of a burst than an actual burst, piggybacking on some other collapse.
Imagine what happened with housing, where defaults were the initial problem, but now people are deleveraging housing debt in houses that are worth much less than expected, forcing massive cuts in disposable income for the average household. This rapid shift in paying down debt cut the economic output and income of people who were fine on their own mortgage/debt. The crisis that involves student debt will probably start with something like the Tech bubble burst, but then hang around like the great recession.
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On December 12 2012 12:44 WTFZerg wrote:
Frankly, I have very little pity for people who go to college and rack up ridiculous amounts of debt without any thought or consideration to the future. Far, far too many students go to either private or out-of-state universities and end up paying $80,000 for a bachelor's degree they could have paid much, much less for if they bothered to actually shop around. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to look down on community colleges as somehow beneath them, when in reality doing your first two years at a community college not only reduces your out of pocket expenses, but all but guarantees your admittance to a state university so as long as you don't do abhorrently.
And another thing: Not everyone has to go to college. But, for whatever reason, people seem to look down upon those who work skilled blue collar jobs. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and HVAC personal all make respectable incomes without college education. Tech schools need to be more strongly emphasized by the high school system instead of this "GO TO COLLEGE" mentality that is poured down the throats of people who have no interest in it.
At the end of the day, were I not planning on going to school for Law, I would not even be in college.
This is alot of the problem with social science peoples who say, well I respect blue collar or STEM but now that I've planned it its too late. While stating the problem you are still contributing the saturation of the law field.
I would know myself because I too am in law school and heard it alot in polisci and hear it now in law. There's only one upshot for me in that Native American lawyers for tribes somehow still in demand economically by tribes, if I wasn't going to practice that I would be entering a mine field, and yet I know I'm contributing toward the problem. I always look back say, hell if I knew what a joke law school turned out to be I'd go to med school, yet I simply didn't. Besides debt alleviation solutions, social engineering and encouragement towards STEM into the political system should be encouraged.
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On December 12 2012 12:54 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:44 WTFZerg wrote:
Frankly, I have very little pity for people who go to college and rack up ridiculous amounts of debt without any thought or consideration to the future. Far, far too many students go to either private or out-of-state universities and end up paying $80,000 for a bachelor's degree they could have paid much, much less for if they bothered to actually shop around. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to look down on community colleges as somehow beneath them, when in reality doing your first two years at a community college not only reduces your out of pocket expenses, but all but guarantees your admittance to a state university so as long as you don't do abhorrently.
And another thing: Not everyone has to go to college. But, for whatever reason, people seem to look down upon those who work skilled blue collar jobs. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and HVAC personal all make respectable incomes without college education. Tech schools need to be more strongly emphasized by the high school system instead of this "GO TO COLLEGE" mentality that is poured down the throats of people who have no interest in it.
At the end of the day, were I not planning on going to school for Law, I would not even be in college. This is alot of the problem with social science peoples who say, well I respect blue collar or STEM but now that I've planned it its too late. While stating the problem you are still contributing the saturation of the law field. I would know myself because I too am in law school. There's only one upshot for me in that Native American lawyers for tribes somehow still in demand economically by tribes, if I wasn't going to practice that I would be entering a mine field, and yet I know I'm contributing toward the problem. I always look back say, hell if I knew what a joke law school turned out to be I'd go to med school, yet I simply didn't.
Never said I was going to work as a lawyer in any fashion, only that I plan on attending Law school.
Two reasons I'm pursuing law:
1) The law fascinates me.
2) I want to work in Federal law enforcement. Something like the FBI.
And, at any rate, with a Bachelors in Economics (in progress) and a Masters in Finance (next step) combined with an actually pretty decent resume (from retail to the USPS to database development for JPMorgan) chances are I will be able to find a job.
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On December 12 2012 12:44 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:41 theinfamousone wrote:On December 12 2012 10:28 Klipsys wrote:
One of the problems is no accountability for people's majors. Really, anyone majoring in art history/English/ liberal arts better have a really good fucking idea what they're getting themselves into. Another issue is EVERYONE thinking they need to go to college. There is a stigma attached with not having a degree, and it's disturbing. We need to adjust our thinking to believe that trade-schools are just as worthy of an investment of time as a degree. Owning your own plumbing business is not an awful thing, and at this point plumbers are doing better than most 9-5 desk jockeys. THIS This is exactly right. I think literally the majority of Americans go to college because they think "it's what you do after high school" as goes the line from Orange County (the movie with Jack Black from 2002). If you don't go to college, then somehow you are only half a person. So they don't know what they want to do, but they know they have to eventually otherwise they'll hate themselves forever, and it only gets harder to finish a degree as you get older. Then they just take random classes for a few years racking up debt trying to figure out something they "like" (because Americans are so far removed from reality that they think any job you don't like doing you should either be a bitch/douche to everyone and take it out on them, or quit). Well that's all well and good (not really but that's the expression) except for the fact that most people would rather learn about psychology, art, and dancing then math and chemistry (aka the hard sciences). Since Americans are so far removed from reality that life's not always like it is in the movies where you become a paleontologist like Ross in Friends, or do whatever Chandler did, sitting in an office getting paid a lot of money, or being an actor like Joey, and don't realize that in the real world half your day is working and it sucks (it's "work", if it was supposed to be fun, it would be called "play"), and the other half is trying to stay caught up with all of your home chores. Until people get a clue, this will be an ongoing problem. The funny thing is, college really isn't really prepare you for your field very well most of the time. Most of what you do at work is a combination of on the job training, and having common sense, which taking multiple choice tests and copying and pasting essays from sparknotes sadly doesn't help with. I'm not saying an education isn't necessary for a lot of fields, but for at least half of what we would consider decent paying jobs, it shouldn't be required. What employers should be more concerned with is training people properly themselves, and then seeing how it goes on a probationary period. Then you've got people that are terrible at their job and/or hate their job.tldr; Americans are terrible at picking majors and taking life seriously, and employers perpetuate the fallacy because they're too lazy to properly find the right people for the right jobs. I agree with this all completely. IMO all of this you need to go to college thing is driven by employers.
Except employers aren't deluded like you think they are. Besides the fact that for certain majors, such as Engineering, Accounting, etc. it's 100% necessary to have a proficiency in the area (and if you don't have it, then they'll have to train you out of their own pockets), it's widely known that employers do NOT think university adequately prepares you for a career.
Rather, it's a method to weed out the driven from the mediocre. Why hire someone with a 2.5 GPA when you can hire someone with a 3.5 GPA? All things equal, someone with a 3.5 is a harder worker or is more bright. Sure, some people are better test takers than others. But it's an amazing signal nonetheless about your attributes. They want to see that you'll take that career seriously at their firm. They don't want you if you "oh, sounds like a good career" on a whim. They want to see that you've dedicated four years to learning the subject material as best as possible and have performed well in that area. That way, they know you're serious, motivated, and willing to stick around.
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I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market only you can repossess a law degree (I have a friend who graduated from law school a year ago, still hasn't passed the bar exam and doesn't really care since there's no jobs anyway). You can't get blood from a turnip as they say. What happens to those who fail out of medical school after a year or two paying $50,000/year for tuition?
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. There's another problem that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy.
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EPT
