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On December 12 2012 15:18 Skullflower wrote:
My only problem with college is that I really don't see the point of taking all these bullshit math classes when I'm not touching anything STEM related. Can anybody tell me why the fuck I need to pass Calculus to get a Business major?
Logic. That's why you have to go through all those classes as a kid too. It's to expand your mind and teach you different ways of approaching various problems. You'll likely never crunch numbers, or use any of the algorithms from Calculus, but you're a better, more well rounded thinker having taken a calc class (if you actually pay attention, and learn something, instead of having a friend do the work for you).
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I think one of the major problems with the student loan system is people can rack up basically as much debt as they want with no credit to speak of. Student loans are basically loans that are given without taking the time to learn about the person that is being invested in. Talk about a bad investment.
When I was in school, I didn't know what the workforce was like, so I didn't value the idea of an engineering degree enough. I thought I'd eventually graduate, but there was no deadline. I got depressed and had a hard time socializing at the lowest point, and basically stayed stuck in that rut for two years. On top of it I had deaths of people and pets that were close to me to grieve.
What I did was try to beat the system and ride through my depression. Okay, I'll quit beating around the bush and I'll just explain.
You don't have to pay back student loans until a few months after you do either
A graduate, or
B drop out / get kicked out of university (for bad grades or bad behavior)
So if you're someone like me, when I first started I went through mostly elective classes first instead of core engineering classes, so my GPA was really close to 4.0. Then some engineering mixed in and it dropped to about 3.8 but it was still mostly electives. Then the depression phase kicked in. I basically had no friends and stopped going to class and started failing almost every class I was in, and I pulled a B or C in electives that I could cram. In order to be able to postpone loan payment, I had to be enrolled in 6 hours a semester. That's two classes. So I had about 33-36 credits worth of As and Bs, and then for 4 semesters I failed 6 hours. So at the end of the day I'm left with a cumulative GPA of about 2.28, which was high enough for my college to say "you're fine, keep going" rather than simply dismiss me.
This could potentially go on for a lot longer period of time (repay postponement), in fact it could go on indefinitely if the "student" remains enrolled in a university. All the person would have to do is take and pass 6 hours of classes every semester, take out more money than they need in student loans, and go drink wine in Europe with their harem of shopaholic girlfriends. Then if they never meet requirements to graduate they don't have to pay it back ever, as per the terms of the loan. Hell, I knew people who were majoring in just about every field of engineering because they didn't want to go work. There was one guy who had a major in electrical and computer engineering and was working on his computer science major, and he wasn't paying back loans because he's been in school for 10 years.
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On December 12 2012 17:02 hp.Shell wrote:
This could potentially go on for a lot longer period of time (repay postponement), in fact it could go on indefinitely if the "student" remains enrolled in a university. All the person would have to do is take and pass 6 hours of classes every semester, take out more money than they need in student loans, and go drink wine in Europe with their harem of shopaholic girlfriends. Then if they never meet requirements to graduate they don't have to pay it back ever, as per the terms of the loan. Hell, I knew people who were majoring in just about every field of engineering because they didn't want to go work. There was one guy who had a major in electrical and computer engineering and was working on his computer science major, and he wasn't paying back loans because he's been in school for 10 years.
you sir might have just saved the free world. you're the new keynes
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United States24569 Posts
On December 12 2012 17:02 hp.Shell wrote:
This could potentially go on for a lot longer period of time (repay postponement), in fact it could go on indefinitely if the "student" remains enrolled in a university
One thing to point out, although it doesn't invalidate your point, is that the un-subsidized portion of any loans will continue to accrue interest during this long period of being a student.
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I don't think there are many good ways to solve it. In Sweden, you're paid by the government to study (and you can take a loan on top of that if you want, for living expenses) and studying is free. Yet people still get pretty big debts (usually by studying abroad) and many of them can never pay it back.
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From my experience after graduating, the issue with recent graduates not getting jobs is that employers look for both a degree AND skills with experience. As it stands, and entry level doesn't exactly mean entry level skills, it means entry level pay. Having graduated with a degree in IT, a lot of the entry level jobs I was looking at required years of experiece, which is an interesting paradox. Colleges need to communicate to students that doing internships and resume building is an absolute necessity. Personally, I've learned and put a ton more things on my resume in 2 months of working at a small/medium size company than 4 years at college. To be honest, my IT education was a joke and it didn't prepare me at all for working with technology. Most of my courses were theory or beyond entry level skills. It really begs the quesiton why the degree is necessary in the first place, seeing as I could have prepared myself for a technology job much more efficiently and in 1/4th of the time without it!
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yes, you're now expected to do several years of indentured servitude before you can have enough experience for an "entry level" position. that's a barrier to social mobility if I ever saw one.
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Plumbing/Electrical/Construction/HVAC etc. etc. needs to just be offered by colleges so that these kids going to college are actually getting a skill as opposed to a rough idea of how business works or a background in writing. The student debt is kind of a different problem alltogether, the entire world is debt ridden at this point. The best thing that could happen would be for more individuals to pick up trades that have value straight out of school.
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On December 13 2012 01:18 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:02 hp.Shell wrote:
This could potentially go on for a lot longer period of time (repay postponement), in fact it could go on indefinitely if the "student" remains enrolled in a university One thing to point out, although it doesn't invalidate your point, is that the un-subsidized portion of any loans will continue to accrue interest during this long period of being a student.
My brother subscribes to this methodology of dealing with his loan and your point doesn't matter.
-He got 40k in loans to get his teaching degree.
-He discovered that in order to get a teaching license in California, you basically have to be an intern for 2 years.
-He can't afford to take 2 years off from getting paid as he is the sole earner in his family at around $15/hr with a wife and 2 daughters.
-He can't afford to pay back his loans
-Therefore, his ONLY option is to continue taking on student loans and continue going to school for free.
What happens when the house of cards falls down?
A broke man goes broke. Nothing to see here, move along.
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On December 12 2012 10:15 FeUerFlieGe wrote:
If this continues, then in the future either:
a. People will stop going to University. University will once again be for the rich, outstanding students, legacy, ect, and most people will probably go to tech schools to get a degree.
b. Government gets it's shit together and improves the education system of this country.
I hope b.
In the IT field, this is somewhat already the case, only it's more along the lines of:
a. University is useless in IT for everybody who doesn't care to climb the management ladder, which is unnecessary anyway as 1st-tier management often gets paid less than Sr. Engineers.
b. If you want to get a degree, whatever company you work for usually has some sort of shitty "furthering education" system where they pay for your classes. You go to as many classes as you can for free (or as little out-of-pocket as possible) and take as long to get a degree as the math adds up to.
*bonus: there really isn't anywhere one can go to learn about networking/server management in a classroom setting. Certifications are what the IT field really values, and the best way to get those is through self-study and looking shit up on the internet. It's almost like being able to speak another language. The concepts aren't hard, but nobody understands wtf you're talking about, so you just tell them to give you a raise and you'll take care of it 
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On December 12 2012 10:28 Klipsys wrote:
One of the problems is no accountability for people's majors. Really, anyone majoring in art history/English/ liberal arts better have a really good fucking idea what they're getting themselves into. Another issue is EVERYONE thinking they need to go to college. There is a stigma attached with not having a degree, and it's disturbing. We need to adjust our thinking to believe that trade-schools are just as worthy of an investment of time as a degree. Owning your own plumbing business is not an awful thing, and at this point plumbers are doing better than most 9-5 desk jockeys.
This is so unbelievably true. This whole "college kids are getting the short end with no jobs and high debt!" thing is totally beyond me because many take majors that aren't seen as valuable in the business world. My school has an 80+% job/grad. school confirmation post-graduation, but that's because the people who graduate have competitive degrees in sciences, mathematics, engineering, and the like. + Show Spoiler +we like to joke that the other 20% are are English and history majors 
People need to realize that while a diploma between two students may look completely identical to you, a potential high-paying employer sees it in a greatly different light if your degree is in engineering as opposed to 12th century French literature. Focus on the skills and experience that an employer finds valuable, not "Oh, yeah, I have a diploma."
Edit:
So here's the intuitive problem for me, the U.S. is continually going to trend toward a service side economy, especially for White Americans, then it will trickle down to Hispanics and some AA's and NA (Natives) here and there. Everyone wants a piece these days instead of settling for lower end jobs. This is logical, and completely rational so no one needs to feel bad about it.
What? That sounds like terrible advice in my opinion. Those low-paying "undesirable" jobs provide valuable work experience for people. They then use this experience and even the skills they learn from said job to gain a competitive edge over other candidates for employment. Yes, it can depend on what job one is actually doing, but anything you can put on your resume is a plus. Also, you gain contacts that will help you network with future employers, employers who will see your hard work and offer you more money for your abilities, skills, and/or services.
These sorts of jobs seem to be viewed as though they'll be working there for their entire life. But really they're "entry-level" positions, places to step up from. They're what help you begin your career, not where you expect to end it.
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United States24569 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:47 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 01:18 micronesia wrote:On December 12 2012 17:02 hp.Shell wrote:
This could potentially go on for a lot longer period of time (repay postponement), in fact it could go on indefinitely if the "student" remains enrolled in a university One thing to point out, although it doesn't invalidate your point, is that the un-subsidized portion of any loans will continue to accrue interest during this long period of being a student. My brother subscribes to this methodology of dealing with his loan and your point doesn't matter. -He got 40k in loans to get his teaching degree. -He discovered that in order to get a teaching license in California, you basically have to be an intern for 2 years. -He can't afford to take 2 years off from getting paid as he is the sole earner in his family at around $15/hr with a wife and 2 daughters. -He can't afford to pay back his loans -Therefore, his ONLY option is to continue taking on student loans and continue going to school for free. What happens when the house of cards falls down? A broke man goes broke. Nothing to see here, move along.
What do you mean my point doesn't matter? I wasn't trying to say that people never have an incentive to do this because it ends up being more expensive.
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On December 12 2012 10:24 Sub40APM wrote:
Pretty logical progression really. Death of blue collar jobs that afford middle class style life style ---> growing importance of college degree as a signal for employers 'look, iam more qualified' ---> growing demand for college ---> growing exploitation of people's hope for a better life by colleges to jack up tuition --> dilution of just a generic college degree --> increased competition for 'elite' degrees ---> higher costs all around.
I guess the real problem is a bit deeper. Why did all the blue collar jobs that afford middle class style life style die? Why does USA no longer need many blue collar workers?
IMHO the answer is threefold:
1. More automation (a lot of manufacturing is now done by robots, construction and farming involves much more machinery etc)
2. Loss of blue collar jobs to cheaper countries like China, India, Mexico etc.
3. Overall saturation and diminishing resources, i.e. very little unused land left in US, huge oil and industrial supplies imports (less easy to get resources left in US).
I guess you can't really revert these three phenomena bar some huge ecological disaster or a world war. The only possible ways forward are increasing inequality and debt or complete revamp of educational system. What do you think?
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On December 12 2012 10:30 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:16 forgottendreams wrote:On December 12 2012 10:12 heroyi wrote:
dont have enough grasp of the economic theories to give a rationale answer.
All I know is that college education system doesn't make sense. Go out and enrich your lives with education and become skilled but be buried in debt.
Then again, a lot of these debts have a high correlation with the degree and field chosen.
I know people who go get loans, student loans mind you, and use that money to go pay off a car, trips to Europe. I know people who have degrees in English and some bs in business and wonder why they cant land a job or hold a non-minimum wage job. People have this wrong illusion that if you hold this magical paper called degree then you are entitled to some 6 figure salary despite the quality of the degree... I agree, some people just go to college for the loans or to put off working on the farm or continuing the job at Wal Mart (who can blame them lol?). Fault certainly must attributed towards some of the degree consumers there taking an easy or BS art/business/architecture (sorry man.. gotta start somewhere) degrees. Some of these people earning these degrees don't know any better, some do but don't think far ahead of personal or aggregate societal consequences. Perhaps then part of the solution is absolving or alleviating debt in degree areas that are important economically for the foreseeable future. However that too runs risk of over saturating those degree areas and putting strain on colleges nation wide to handle the incoming demand of those students switching over. See now you sound like Rick Scott, gov. of FL, who wanted to inject more into the STEM classes and kill off other "non-important" majors like anthro, arts, etc... People dont realize you CAN get a job with any degree but they don't realize that if you have/chose anthropology major...don't expect to have: 1) a high paying job out of school 2) a salary in that field in which that will comfortably help pay off your living conditions AND debts Instead, to get a 6 figure salary with an Anthropology degree you gotta work your ASS off to get there. Because those are usually reserved in very high positions in that job field. Again, people don't understand when you have, for example, a business degree you aren't going to be using that degree as a ticket to riches. Instead you have to use the education you experienced while obtaining the degree to help you go take the initiative (working on resume, job experiences, insight to start a business etc...) NOT "oh hi, i got a bachelor in business, can i has 40000000000 dollar paycheck." edit: Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:28 Klipsys wrote:
One of the problems is no accountability for people's majors. Really, anyone majoring in art history/English/ liberal arts better have a really good fucking idea what they're getting themselves into. Another issue is EVERYONE thinking they need to go to college. There is a stigma attached with not having a degree, and it's disturbing. We need to adjust our thinking to believe that trade-schools are just as worthy of an investment of time as a degree. Owning your own plumbing business is not an awful thing, and at this point plumbers are doing better than most 9-5 desk jockeys. Agree with everything said here. People don't know how to feel when someone goes on about how they dont have formal education like college but yet do well financially cause of their job they own and run. It is always funny since education is so highly valued (which it should be however people shouldn't be/feel berated for not going to college)
this is actually not that good of an argument.
not all STEM fields pay that well
biology and chemistry majors on average don't really make that much post grad, also you forget that the more people who pursue such fields, the lower the collective wages will be (if that is even possible)
business majors actually on average (not all but quite a few) make more than a decent number of STEM fields.
if you're talking STEM here then you're reall jsut talking about mathematics, statistics, physics engineering and that's it, and a lot of those 'high paying jobs' in those fields aren't even in those fields --- they're in business, i should know since i started off in STEM fields never wanting to actually pursue anything related to STEM.
many professional fields also use examination systems where passing marks are set by the participants involved (for example actuarial). therefore wages are high because professional societies are effectively artificially curbing supply. of workers to keep wages high. course you can argue "but we need standards!", however logically it isn't possible for everyone to become one.
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On December 12 2012 12:10 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:07 OsoVega wrote:
Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university. Is there evidence which shows that the federal involvement in student loans is what causes tuition to be so high? Regardless, if your suggestion was enacted I wonder how many innocent students would get screwed by it even though they were actually going to get a good job and pay back their loan after graduating.
quite a bit actually, it's essentially free money for schools lol. most of the money from tuition hikes doesn't even go towards better education, they go towards administrators and building the 'reputation' of schools. however students benefit disproportionately from 'reputation'. for example i go to a top 10 ranked engineering/business school, most of that money goes into making sure students like myself get better paying jobs etc... (indirectly), yet as a collective, myself (and people like me) represent only a fraction of people who attend school -- yet we all pay the same tuition.
administrators also make FAR more than professors do, and many times have zero background in education or anything education related. and with how tenureship incentive structures work (most professors don't give a shit about teaching, since it is unimportant towards obtaining money or tenureship). i've always felt this was extremely obvious, --anyone who has sat in an upper division math/science course is going to realize a) there are hardly any Americans in your class b) there are a substantial number of these classes that are very poorly taught by very bright professors who just clearly care more about research than teaching --> yet REPUTATION of the school is linked to research results, not teaching ability.
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I never rly understood the US- Forprofit school system, but basically its Universitys demand Money from the Students, right?
So then the Students need to loan Money (from Banks?), thats the Student loan? plx Educate me on this, I have no idea, also could someone plx tell me how much Money you need for this? (I heard that some ppl have to work like slaves to pay off the debt)
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On December 13 2012 05:36 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:10 micronesia wrote:On December 12 2012 12:07 OsoVega wrote:
Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university. Is there evidence which shows that the federal involvement in student loans is what causes tuition to be so high? Regardless, if your suggestion was enacted I wonder how many innocent students would get screwed by it even though they were actually going to get a good job and pay back their loan after graduating. quite a bit actually, most of the money from tuition hikes doesn't even go towards better education, they go towards administrators and building the 'reputation' of schools. however students benefit disproportionately from 'reputation'. for example i go to a top 10 ranked engineering/business school, most of that money goes into making sure students like myself get better paying jobs etc... (indirectly), yet as a collective, myself (and people like me) represent only a fraction of people who attend school -- yet we all pay the same tuition. administrators also make FAR more than professors do, and many times have zero background in education or anything education related. and with how tenureship incentive structures work (most professors don't give a shit about teaching, since it is unimportant towards obtaining money or tenureship). i've always felt this was extremely obvious, --anyone who has sat in an upper division math/science course is going to realize a) there are hardly any Americans in your class b) there are a substantial number of these classes that are very poorly taught by very bright professors who just clearly care more about research than teaching --> yet REPUTATION of the school is linked to research results, not teaching ability.
This is changing now.
Tenured positions are getting eliminated from universities across US. Most schools now mostly have adjunct professors who are only involved in teaching. They earn $2000-4000 per course per year (which results in $15000-$35000 annual salary for those who teach multiple courses in several universities).
Many universities now also have research professors. They do not teach, but have zero salary. They apply for annual research grants, which require a couple of months to prepare an application, and then there is %10-%20 probability to get a grant. If they fail to get a grant (most do fail), then they do not get paid and have to work for free in hopes of getting another grant.
Both types of professors often have supplementary part-time jobs as waiters etc. This trend is quickly growing.
This is actually a fairly efficient system that pushes professors to their limits to do the best job for little to no payment (i.e. they get paid only if they outperform the others by a long shot). So as a university you get much better quality of both teaching and research (no that it's done by separate people), and it costs you almost no money.
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On December 13 2012 05:45 Daumen wrote:
I never rly understood the US- Forprofit school system, but basically its Universitys demand Money from the Students, right?
So then the Students need to loan Money (from Banks?), thats the Student loan? plx Educate me on this, I have no idea, also could someone plx tell me how much Money you need for this? (I heard that some ppl have to work like slaves to pay off the debt)
It actually makes sense, I feel. In Germany, I guess the idea is that the government will get its money invested into people's education back in the future through more taxes in a better economy than what would be the case without free college tuition. If this is true, investing into education means more income over a student's lifetime, this also means the student loans in the US make sense for the student. The financing is simply privatized, the people have to take out a loan, but will pay less taxes in their life than people in Germany.
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On December 13 2012 05:49 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:36 dreamsmasher wrote:On December 12 2012 12:10 micronesia wrote:On December 12 2012 12:07 OsoVega wrote:
Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university. Is there evidence which shows that the federal involvement in student loans is what causes tuition to be so high? Regardless, if your suggestion was enacted I wonder how many innocent students would get screwed by it even though they were actually going to get a good job and pay back their loan after graduating. quite a bit actually, most of the money from tuition hikes doesn't even go towards better education, they go towards administrators and building the 'reputation' of schools. however students benefit disproportionately from 'reputation'. for example i go to a top 10 ranked engineering/business school, most of that money goes into making sure students like myself get better paying jobs etc... (indirectly), yet as a collective, myself (and people like me) represent only a fraction of people who attend school -- yet we all pay the same tuition. administrators also make FAR more than professors do, and many times have zero background in education or anything education related. and with how tenureship incentive structures work (most professors don't give a shit about teaching, since it is unimportant towards obtaining money or tenureship). i've always felt this was extremely obvious, --anyone who has sat in an upper division math/science course is going to realize a) there are hardly any Americans in your class b) there are a substantial number of these classes that are very poorly taught by very bright professors who just clearly care more about research than teaching --> yet REPUTATION of the school is linked to research results, not teaching ability. This is changing now. Tenured positions are getting eliminated from universities across US. Most schools now mostly have adjunct professors who are only involved in teaching. They earn $2000-4000 per course per year (which results in $15000-$35000 annual salary for those who teach multiple courses in several universities). Many universities now also have research professors. They do not teach, but have zero salary. They apply for annual research grants, which require a couple of months to prepare an application, and then there is %10-%20 probability to get a grant. If they fail to get a grant (most do fail), then they do not get paid and have to work for free in hopes of getting another grant. Both types of professors often have supplementary part-time jobs as waiters etc. This trend is quickly growing.
only furthers my point thank you
some anecdotal evidence but in both my upper division stat classes Americans make up less than 10% of the classroom and in one of the classes, the professor literally just presented proofs that any textbook could have shown me, and i think attendance was something like 30% (I rarely went myself). this isn't because students are 'lazy' or 'unmotivated', but more due to the fact that 1) the professor rarely actually sets times that are within students ability to meet 2) he doesn't even answer EMAILS (i actually received an email saying too busy can't respond, and there were several no shows when I had previously set a meeting time). there were also zero quizzes, zero tests (only weekly homework and a final).
the professor is actually a really smart guy (quite apparent, he won some sort of distinguished award for research), and this has been going on (from what i've heard from students who had taken the class before). this isn't an isolated incident either, anyone who has been in engineering at any top research university can attest to the same situation.
i probably got an A in teh course, but not because of the class (independent study, video lectures from free sources like MIT opencourseware etc...)
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On December 13 2012 05:17 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:24 Sub40APM wrote:
Pretty logical progression really. Death of blue collar jobs that afford middle class style life style ---> growing importance of college degree as a signal for employers 'look, iam more qualified' ---> growing demand for college ---> growing exploitation of people's hope for a better life by colleges to jack up tuition --> dilution of just a generic college degree --> increased competition for 'elite' degrees ---> higher costs all around.
I guess the real problem is a bit deeper. Why did all the blue collar jobs that afford middle class style life style die? Why does USA no longer need many blue collar workers? IMHO the answer is threefold: 1. More automation (a lot of manufacturing is now done by robots, construction and farming involves much more machinery etc) 2. Loss of blue collar jobs to cheaper countries like China, India, Mexico etc. 3. Overall saturation and diminishing resources, i.e. very little unused land left in US, huge oil and industrial supplies imports (less easy to get resources left in US). I guess you can't really revert these three phenomena bar some huge ecological disaster or a world war. The only possible ways forward are increasing inequality and debt or complete revamp of educational system. What do you think?
This is just an extremely good post and actually touches on a thread I made earlier back in the dizzle.
This succinctly summarizes the long term economic problems of the U.S.; the "automaton creep" is not going to stop anytime soon. Sure it's taking over menial jobs, but it's presence is slowly being felt in medicine and law even. What's going to be left are managerial roles, servicing roles or programming that are going to increasingly demand higher and higher education as competition is squeezed. Frankly, I don't exactly see a solution here quite yet...
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EPT
