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On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy.
Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back.
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On December 12 2012 12:10 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:07 OsoVega wrote:
Stop guaranteeing student loans, and students won't be able to bid up tuition prices to the point where everyone needs a loan to go to university. Is there evidence which shows that the federal involvement in student loans is what causes tuition to be so high? Regardless, if your suggestion was enacted I wonder how many innocent students would get screwed by it even though they were actually going to get a good job and pay back their loan after graduating.
I remember reading somewhere that basically, government guarantees loans so students can't default on them. So the people who give out the loans are literally taking no risk. So when students stop paying them, the loans get transferred to basically a debt collector agency who then charges them more fees on top of the interest. The agency that collects the unpaid debt was owned by the people who initially gave out the loan too lol.
So basically, you take out a loan and you pay it back, cool they made interest. You take out a loan and you fail to pay it back the government pays them back, and then an agency they own gets paid more money to collect that debt that the government already paid them for. So they technically made more money by you defaulting, which gives them incentive to give out reckless amounts of student loan money.
I am pretty sure I read that on another TL thread about the same issue. I found it hilariously horrifying. I personally don't see why state colleges charge any money what so ever. A long time ago we decided that a high school education was necessary so it should be paid for, but now college is considered the necessary thing to be successful/productive so why isn't it paid for? I think the ridiculous price comes out of the necessity that people place on it, tied with how much money people can make off of stupid loans since they are literally no risk investments.
I could be wrong, but I think it would probably greatly help if high school actually served a purpose, like taught trades or useful courses. Basically if there were significantly less required courses so it basically functioned more like college so that people would leave with a skill and an idea of what to do as opposed to high school essentially functioning as a college prep. If high school actually gave kids useful skills then maybe there would be less of a demand for college degrees.
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On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back.
This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior.
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I think people going to college right out of high school is typically a mistake. So many have no clue what they want to do out of high school, so they go to college and waste time with classes while trying to figure out what they'd like to do. The thing is, college/uni doesn't give you any information on what the real world is like, so they're just spinning their wheels. If people had more of an idea of what to expect in the real world, they could use their degrees much more effectively, and would probably figure out what to choose a lot more easily.
I see a lot of people bashing English degrees here, but the only reason that English isn't useful to more people is that they don't know how to apply the skills they learned in English to the real world. There are a lot of organizational, and analytic skills that transfer VERY well to the business world. If you back that up with a business minor, and maybe go on to get an MBA, then you can very well get a high paying job: it just takes a bit longer. It's not like the STEM degrees necessarily translate into a high paying job immediately anyway. I was told by upper leadership in the company I work for (an oil company, which I'll choose to not name) that my proposed plan for college is a good one (English major, business minor, then an MBA; although one person suggested a business major, English minor). The thing is, it's a harder road to travel; you certainly can't expect to walk out of college and get a high paying job on some board straight out of college. College is the tip of the iceberg, that's why experience is so important (and why internships are so good to get).
So many people believe that their degree entitles them to a high paying job, or it entitles them to pick and choose what kind of work they'll do, and that's why they fail. I hear people in the office complaining about some work that gets dumped on us, with statements like "this is like a slap in the face to us. We have degrees in X; we shouldn't have to do this shit!" Your degree doesn't dictate to the company what you get to do in your job role, it just helps get an interview. If the work is unsatisfying, then prove your worth and move out of your low-level role. But people can't see this. It's hard to put everything into words. It all starts with this overly entitled feeling that we have here. Everyone "shouldn't have to" do XYZ, but they're thinking in terms that don't apply; the fact is they do have to do those things. It's this mentality that creates the problem.
Given the path that I've chosen, I know that it's not going to be an easy road to travel, but I can absolutely get to where I want to be with these degrees, because they'll help provide the skills I need to get there, and through my current job, I'll get supplementary skills that I can apply as well (like Six Sigma green belt certification, which is very popular, for some reason, in the business world right now). That, and probably a PM certification, since I'll likely try to go into consulting for a few years, then move into a more stable situation (and I have a few people I know that can help with this). But the difference between me at 25, and the 18 year old English major with no real world experience, is that I understand that the degree is just the beginning of my work (in addition to probably being a better communicator/technical writer than they are, despite my incoherent ramblings here). I know what I'm getting myself into, whereas they think getting any old degree guarantees that they'll make $80k coming out.
On December 12 2012 12:44 WTFZerg wrote:
Frankly, I have very little pity for people who go to college and rack up ridiculous amounts of debt without any thought or consideration to the future. Far, far too many students go to either private or out-of-state universities and end up paying $80,000 for a bachelor's degree they could have paid much, much less for if they bothered to actually shop around. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to look down on community colleges as somehow beneath them, when in reality doing your first two years at a community college not only reduces your out of pocket expenses, but all but guarantees your admittance to a state university so as long as you don't do abhorrently.
And another thing: Not everyone has to go to college. But, for whatever reason, people seem to look down upon those who work skilled blue collar jobs. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and HVAC personal all make respectable incomes without college education. Tech schools need to be more strongly emphasized by the high school system instead of this "GO TO COLLEGE" mentality that is poured down the throats of people who have no interest in it.
At the end of the day, were I not planning on going to school for Law, I would not even be in college.
That's seriously so dumb, but I see it all the time. It's probably because all the washouts go there. All the weird people, and dumb people go to a CC because they couldn't get a scholarship to go to a major university, or they couldn't get loans, or they have poor parents. It's the same as it is with everything in the USA, everyone is trying to uphold an image, and it's far more impressive to people that don't matter if you go to X University for four years, than if you go to a CC, then transfer into a four year uni.
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Sorry, I'm not American, but I think this is a problem everywhere. In my country, people who graduate from
college or masters or doctorate consider themselves to be high up in the employment food chain.
Companies take degrees waaay waaay too seriously. In prestigious companies, HR segregates resumes that are
graduates of Ateneo De Manila, University of the Philipines or La Salle. (Elite schools in our country)
In my case, I graduated computer science in a 2nd rate university and I was able to survive by buying and selling magic
the gathering cards (ripping off people) instead of loans. I didn't like the idea of loans at all. Its like digging a hole for yourself. If I can survive with the little resources I have, then that is enough. Just like in sc2.
I polished my programming skills and got to be a programmer in the same company. Right now,
I just wait for requests to improve the systems and most of the time I just watch youtube or tv series at the office while
I earn more money than I deserve. On the sides I do part time racket/jobs for extra income with little skill needed and I can do anything I want and still manage to save for passive investments. I'm a lazy person hehe.
In my opinion, rather than investing in degrees. People should learn more skills. Especially technical ones.
Fixing cellphones, computers, repairing cars and other specialized skills. Things that can actually benefit people
I think vocational and technical schools are underrated.
I think the only reason you must go to university is because you want a degree than can give you the license to do something you really aspire/love to do. Like becoming a doctor because you want to help sick people. That is passion.
If you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.
Sorry if I got a little off topic.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
debt is a burden, the worry is that this contracts the consumer economy even more.
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On December 12 2012 13:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back. This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior.
That's such a bullshit excuse to me. People just aren't willing to go through some hardships to see a better outcome on the other side. So they rack up insurmountable debts to live a certain lifestyle during college, because all the other kids are doing it. Maybe I'm lucky in that I already make $50k/year without a college degree, but I've been smart and saved a good portion of my income, and am now able to pay for school without any debt. But I think I just did things wisely. I made some friends, friends knew people in positions of power and helped get me an interview, and then I did well through that process and got hired. This can be done with contracting companies as well. I think a lot of people get too married to their role, as well. For instance, one could get brought on as a contractor in a role, then show the aptitude to do more than just that role, and apply for jobs internally. But people become complacent, and never apply for other jobs, and since they never showed any ambition, their contract runs out, and they're gone. Companies hire good workers, if you show that you're a good worker (it's how I got my current role, which I hate, but it has opened a lot of opportunities to develop career skills that will transfer within here, or to another company).
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On December 12 2012 13:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:15 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back. This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior. That's such a bullshit excuse to me. People just aren't willing to go through some hardships to see a better outcome on the other side. So they rack up insurmountable debts to live a certain lifestyle during college, because all the other kids are doing it. Maybe I'm lucky in that I already make $50k/year without a college degree, but I've been smart and saved a good portion of my income, and am now able to pay for school without any debt.
For some folks, it is a bullshit excuse. But your anecdotal experience does not correlate with the overall picture of the current labor market in reference to entrance level debt and education value, and I'm inclined to think that you amongst a few others are simply expecting the worst when it comes to the plight of your fellow man. Instead of a knee-jerk "well its obvious all these stupid fucks are irresponsible, why couldn't they be like me!" why not go with an attempt at understanding that a huge number of people find themselves in places of financial distress by no agency of their own, whether that take the shape of a cosigner losing their job or a sudden illness that pushes back a degree a few years. For others, misfortune can come down to something as simple as not making it through the last stage of an interview repeatedly.
Let me put it this way. The US economy is currently undergoing a fair amount of international transitive distress as it is forced to change the manner with which it produces a labor force that better reflects global standards of skilled/unskilled labor costs and respective educational requirements. Additionally, banks in general are literally fucking everybody, even themselves. The entire system is being shaken and transformed, and yet a flimsy vilification of those with literally the least ability to change or weather the storm are who you are choosing to blame, and I really do not think this makes sense. Again, I recognize that part of moving forward is going to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of those who take on student loans, but this is only a small part of the overall problem.
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I think some people here has an unrealistic view of the world. I'm seeing way too much blame on individual students for all the debt that we're seeing.
First off, we need to remember the backdrop for our current situation; a terrible economy. This is probably the biggest thing that drives people to go to college. Your odds of getting a job without a college degree are terrible in this economy. Not only that, but the pay that you are going to get is going to be abysmal, especially with the pathetic labor/wage/benefit standards in this country. This drives so many people to go to college; you go so you can use up 4 years to kind of "wait out the storm" and so you can come out with a Bachelor's so you have a better chance of getting any job.
Moreover, we see huge amounts of debt because people are pushed into going to good schools. Because of the fact that the market is becoming so over-saturated with degrees, you need not only a degree, but one from a good school to differentiate yourself. Going to CC and then your local state school isn't going to increase your chances of getting a job by that much when compared to the host of individuals that went to respected private institutions or the top state schools. Furthermore, this will still land you with some measure of debt.
Not only this, but it's not like state schools are much cheaper. I'm coming out with over $50,000 in debt and I go to an expensive ($48,500/year) private institution. However, if I would've gone to the University of Minnesota (my local school), I would have had to pay more per year out-of-pocket, and my family barely squeaks over the poverty line in terms of income. Other state schools? Out-of-state tuition would make just about all of them cost just as much as the school I'm currently at, and they would've given less financial aid. Long story short, financial aid in this country is fucked up, and is rarely helpful.
Finally, even if all of these issues weren't a big deal, we need to remember that paying for school yourself isn't a guaranteed thing. Rent is NOT cheap anymore, jobs are NOT available for people who don't have college degrees. It is incredibly difficult to get job in high school relative to the difficulty of getting one 10 years ago, so there's no guarantee of being able to save up money for college, or getting a job to work at while you're in college.
Of course there is some blame to be had by students. Plenty of students just go to college because it's "what you do" and slack off, get degrees that are hard to market and don't work with them, etc. etc. It's been said many times. But people need to see a bigger picture; the entire system is just really fucked up, and there is nothing going for the consumer at this point.
Another thing to point is is how aggravating it is when people blame the degree. The first thing that I always here about the job discussion is how I probably shouldn't be getting a degree in philosophy if I want to get a solid job (I am applying to Ph.D. programs and hoping to become a professor). Would a society where everyone got "practical" degrees be any good? Would a society where everyone held a math/econ/business/science degree be enjoyable or even prosperous? How would life be with a complete lack of individuals with creative skills be? Furthermore, how about we actually think for a second and reflect on all of the skills social sciences/arts/humanities teach that "practical" degrees are woefully deficient on? Writing skill, speech skills, working in groups, analytic skills, etc. These are incredibly important skills to just about any job, and any humanities/social science/arts degree will cultivate these skills significantly more than a math/econ/business/science degree will. People are far too narrow-minded, blaming the degree as opposed to how an individual uses their degree.
THIS
This is exactly right. I think literally the majority of Americans go to college because they think "it's what you do after high school" as goes the line from Orange County (the movie with Jack Black from 2002). If you don't go to college, then somehow you are only half a person. So they don't know what they want to do, but they know they have to eventually otherwise they'll hate themselves forever, and it only gets harder to finish a degree as you get older. Then they just take random classes for a few years racking up debt trying to figure out something they "like" (because Americans are so far removed from reality that they think any job you don't like doing you should either be a bitch/douche to everyone and take it out on them, or quit).
Well that's all well and good (not really but that's the expression) except for the fact that most people would rather learn about psychology, art, and dancing then math and chemistry (aka the hard sciences). Since Americans are so far removed from reality that life's not always like it is in the movies where you become a paleontologist like Ross in Friends, or do whatever Chandler did, sitting in an office getting paid a lot of money, or being an actor like Joey, and don't realize that in the real world half your day is working and it sucks (it's "work", if it was supposed to be fun, it would be called "play"), and the other half is trying to stay caught up with all of your home chores. Once a year you get to go on vacation and on the weekends you can watch football or whatever.
Until people get a clue, this will be an ongoing problem. The funny thing is, college really isn't really prepare you for your field very well most of the time. Most of what you do at work is a combination of on the job training, and having common sense, which taking multiple choice tests and copying and pasting essays from sparknotes sadly doesn't help with. I'm not saying an education isn't necessary for a lot of fields, but for at least half of what we would consider decent paying jobs, it shouldn't be required. What employers should be more concerned with is training people properly themselves, and then seeing how it goes on a probationary period. Then you've got people that are terrible at their job and/or hate their job.
tldr; Americans are terrible at picking majors and taking life seriously, and employers perpetuate the fallacy because they're too lazy to properly find the right people for the right jobs.
This is ridiculous. There is no moral imperative that makes work "work" and not enjoyable; there is no directive that says that only your evenings and weekends can be enjoyable. It is entirely feasible to say that people should pursue a job that they enjoy. This isn't being lazy or idealistic; it's being smart. It's basically common sense that people are more productive and happier when the thing they spend the most time doing (working) is enjoyable to them. You sound like some grouchy old man from the 50's that is just bitter that people are working to try to make their careers enjoyable when he had to slave away at something he hated for 50 years.
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Theres 4 problems with student debt today.
-Degree mills. Students at for profit schools which result in worthless degrees are eligible for loans.
-High schools give college the only priority when preparing students. Fact is that most students in high school will not or should not go to college yet every goal and testing metric is based on preparing students for college. Schools should have vocational and nondegree professional programs and society should stop pushing people towards this all or nothing goal of college. If you make that change then less people will be compelled to waste time and money in colleges where they dont belong or colleges that are worthless because they are unaccredited.
-State funding cuts. Of all the social programs the government can offer, education is far and away the best one to put money in, especially colleges. It is one of the few that actually generates a return on investment yet we have this misguided policy of spending money on health care and welfare and cutting funding towards universities. The buck is passed on and students are seeing tuition and fees increase at rates 10 times higher than employment salaries are increasing.
-Irresponsible burrowing habits. Some of this goes hand in hand with those degree mill universities. I see so many students using loan money to go on vacation or buy a car rather than using that money on education and living expenses. My roommate graduated with 70k in debt at a school which has 2.5k annual tuition rates because she was not responsible with her loans. They need to be a little more strict with loans so that students dont abuse them.
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On December 12 2012 13:47 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On December 12 2012 13:15 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back. This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior. That's such a bullshit excuse to me. People just aren't willing to go through some hardships to see a better outcome on the other side. So they rack up insurmountable debts to live a certain lifestyle during college, because all the other kids are doing it. Maybe I'm lucky in that I already make $50k/year without a college degree, but I've been smart and saved a good portion of my income, and am now able to pay for school without any debt. For some folks, it is a bullshit excuse. But your anecdotal experience does not correlate with the overall picture of the current labor market in reference to entrance level debt and education value, and I'm inclined to think that you amongst a few others are simply expecting the worst when it comes to the plight of your fellow man. Instead of a knee-jerk "well its obvious all these stupid fucks are irresponsible, why couldn't they be like me!" why not go with an attempt at understanding that a huge number of people find themselves in places of financial distress by no agency of their own, whether that take the shape of a cosigner losing their job or a sudden illness that pushes back a degree a few years. For others, misfortune can come down to something as simple as not making it through the last stage of an interview repeatedly. Let me put it this way. The US economy is currently undergoing a fair amount of international transitive distress as it is forced to change the manner with which it produces a labor force that better reflects global standards of skilled/unskilled labor costs and respective educational requirements. Additionally, banks in general are literally fucking everybody, even themselves. The entire system is being shaken and transformed, and yet a flimsy vilification of those with literally the least ability to change or weather the storm are who you are choosing to blame, and I really do not think this makes sense. Again, I recognize that part of moving forward is going to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of those who take on student loans, but this is only a small part of the overall problem.
Well, that's not what I was trying to say, but I was on a roll, and it came out. There was a post just a few above yours that touched on people being wildly irresponsible with their student loans (using it for cars, vacations, etc), and I incorrectly combined the two ideas. I agree with what you're saying, but for whatever reason, combined your thoughts with the irresponsibility of some loan takers, and then made a blanket statement. Dumb, and irresponsible, but I did it anyway.
The problem is multifactoral, though, and a single post here, maybe even a thousand posts, isn't really enough to define the problem. But people will still argue extremely hard for one reason, when, in fact, it's probably all of the reasons combined that make up the problem we face.
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This is my understanding and opinion, so tell me if I am wrong, about students going to college "for the experience and for some sort of a degree".
Far too many students are in college just because they think they are supposed to be there.
Either they don't know how to not be in school, their parents make them, they don't want to grow up, or because they think learning about comparative literature will enrich their lives. They have every right to do so, but looking around my college campus shows FAR too many students here who really probably shouldn't.
Sure they are passing classes fine, but they aren't really 'the college type', and they aren't getting their worth (in time, if not money). On the other hand, I believe people who are taking a calculated risk to pursue a professional degree, and know how it will be paid for by a job or otherwise, (the typical example is a student for engineering) is a completely reasonable thing, assuming they actually WANT to be there, and WANT to learn how their specialty will work.
Going to college to get a degree for more future money without considering the costs is often unsatisfactory and certainly not a good idea, if you do not want to learn.
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On December 12 2012 10:42 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:30 heroyi wrote:
Again, people don't understand when you have, for example, a business degree you aren't going to be using that degree as a ticket to riches. Instead you have to use the education you experienced while obtaining the degree to help you go take the initiative (working on resume, job experiences, insight to start a business etc...) NOT "oh hi, i got a bachelor in business, can i has 40000000000 dollar paycheck."
But there are degrees like that. Any degree from an elite university ---> easy path to consulting or banking [well, less so now] that gets you a 75-125k job that does not use anything you learned in the previous 4 years. Law degree from an elite university does the same thing. The only thing that I used from law school at work was the existence of law-search engines. But maybe people from the hard science side can speak of their experience re: using the things they've learned in school as a valuable job skill vs. the fact that they went to school is the reason they got a job. Learning vs. Guild-like-entry-level-gate-keeping.
except that doesnt happen at all.... anywhere...
i know your high school counselers and academic advisors tell you that you need perfect grades, and a vast array of extra curriculars and go to harvard to get the job of your dreams, but its not true.
in the grand scheme of things, employers only care about 2 things;
1: what experience do you have?
2: how do you know and what is your connections?
three stirling examples of people i know
1: BA in financing and Accounting from Duke Business school (top ten school for business) went for an emphasis on stock markets. had a decent internship and was tied for highest in class. bright future right? nope, his internship was in a management firm and really wasnt experience, and none of his references counted for anything either because they were not part of his field he wanted. its been 9 monthes, no job. (one thing to note here, he COULD get a good job in either financing or accounting, but he still wants into the trade markets so he's still trying)
2:got his BA in Business Administration, then went directly to grad school for his MBA. (in business school, your initially taught that getting your MBA is like climbing the top of the mountain, then basejumping back to earth to an easy job with a high pay, also read as BULLSHIT) he has graduated, MBA in hand, looking for a management position in several companies. none will hire him. Why? no management experience. let me put this into perspective. he grew up in the hometown as Cabelas (a billion dollar outdoors company) he went to school with the kids of the VPs and board of Directors. he started wortking for Cabelas, when he was 16, he got an internship with them through college, as an assistant to the VP of sales.(EVERYONE knew him) And when he graduated from grad school at 26, working for Cabelas for 10 years. they STILL wouldnt give him a position indicative to his qualifications. why? no actual management experience.
3:Friend graduated from a decent state college, in computer science. he was always a computer genius and we were pretty sure he was gonna get a job programming or coding. anyways. he went to New York to a Facebook event on hacking. successfully hacked whatever they presented him. and made friends with various ppl in the IT security at Facebook. Where's he at now? Living in Palo Alto working for FB in internet security (making bank)
what the story here? its not where you went to school, or what u did in it. Employers really dont care about your GPA (most wont even check it) so those extra ribbons you wore on graduation? yea they will continue to look good, in your closet. its about WHO you know, (networking will get you further in life than anything you will EVER do in college, so if you do anything in college, meet people with connections and hang on to them) and what you have done.
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On December 12 2012 14:00 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:47 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On December 12 2012 13:15 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back. This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior. That's such a bullshit excuse to me. People just aren't willing to go through some hardships to see a better outcome on the other side. So they rack up insurmountable debts to live a certain lifestyle during college, because all the other kids are doing it. Maybe I'm lucky in that I already make $50k/year without a college degree, but I've been smart and saved a good portion of my income, and am now able to pay for school without any debt. For some folks, it is a bullshit excuse. But your anecdotal experience does not correlate with the overall picture of the current labor market in reference to entrance level debt and education value, and I'm inclined to think that you amongst a few others are simply expecting the worst when it comes to the plight of your fellow man. Instead of a knee-jerk "well its obvious all these stupid fucks are irresponsible, why couldn't they be like me!" why not go with an attempt at understanding that a huge number of people find themselves in places of financial distress by no agency of their own, whether that take the shape of a cosigner losing their job or a sudden illness that pushes back a degree a few years. For others, misfortune can come down to something as simple as not making it through the last stage of an interview repeatedly. Let me put it this way. The US economy is currently undergoing a fair amount of international transitive distress as it is forced to change the manner with which it produces a labor force that better reflects global standards of skilled/unskilled labor costs and respective educational requirements. Additionally, banks in general are literally fucking everybody, even themselves. The entire system is being shaken and transformed, and yet a flimsy vilification of those with literally the least ability to change or weather the storm are who you are choosing to blame, and I really do not think this makes sense. Again, I recognize that part of moving forward is going to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of those who take on student loans, but this is only a small part of the overall problem. Well, that's not what I was trying to say, but I was on a roll, and it came out. There was a post just a few above yours that touched on people being wildly irresponsible with their student loans (using it for cars, vacations, etc), and I incorrectly combined the two ideas. I agree with what you're saying, but for whatever reason, combined your thoughts with the irresponsibility of some loan takers, and then made a blanket statement. Dumb, and irresponsible, but I did it anyway. The problem is multifactoral, though, and a single post here, even maybe a thousand posts, isn't really enough to define the problem.
Word, having come from a massive state school myself, I was surrounded by quite a few kids who were obviously only in Columbus to see the Buckeyes play and get fuckin hammered, so I can sympathize. And I do agree that the problem is quite complicated, though I do not see that as a reason to despair or not attempt to figure out solutions. Gotta at least try.
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On December 12 2012 13:00 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 12:54 forgottendreams wrote:On December 12 2012 12:44 WTFZerg wrote:
Frankly, I have very little pity for people who go to college and rack up ridiculous amounts of debt without any thought or consideration to the future. Far, far too many students go to either private or out-of-state universities and end up paying $80,000 for a bachelor's degree they could have paid much, much less for if they bothered to actually shop around. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to look down on community colleges as somehow beneath them, when in reality doing your first two years at a community college not only reduces your out of pocket expenses, but all but guarantees your admittance to a state university so as long as you don't do abhorrently.
And another thing: Not everyone has to go to college. But, for whatever reason, people seem to look down upon those who work skilled blue collar jobs. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and HVAC personal all make respectable incomes without college education. Tech schools need to be more strongly emphasized by the high school system instead of this "GO TO COLLEGE" mentality that is poured down the throats of people who have no interest in it.
At the end of the day, were I not planning on going to school for Law, I would not even be in college. This is alot of the problem with social science peoples who say, well I respect blue collar or STEM but now that I've planned it its too late. While stating the problem you are still contributing the saturation of the law field. I would know myself because I too am in law school. There's only one upshot for me in that Native American lawyers for tribes somehow still in demand economically by tribes, if I wasn't going to practice that I would be entering a mine field, and yet I know I'm contributing toward the problem. I always look back say, hell if I knew what a joke law school turned out to be I'd go to med school, yet I simply didn't. Never said I was going to work as a lawyer in any fashion, only that I plan on attending Law school. Two reasons I'm pursuing law: 1) The law fascinates me. 2) I want to work in Federal law enforcement. Something like the FBI. And, at any rate, with a Bachelors in Economics (in progress) and a Masters in Finance (next step) combined with an actually pretty decent resume (from retail to the USPS to database development for JPMorgan) chances are I will be able to find a job.
the Highest Degree that is desired by the FBI, and who they hire the most are Accouting Majors. (yes, even for things like special agents)
Law school not required
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On December 12 2012 14:06 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 14:00 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On December 12 2012 13:47 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On December 12 2012 13:15 farvacola wrote:On December 12 2012 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 12 2012 13:05 theinfamousone wrote:
I have a few ideas on how the bubble will burst for those that are asking. One main problem is 50% of those who graduated a year ago are still unemployed. That's apocalyptically low as those are the future prime wage earners of the country (or at least supposed to be) and the rate you start out with has an immense bearing on the future of your career often times. When they can't pay back their loans, they're delinquent, those who are lending money to student shy away from it/require higher interest rates. Well students have to have that money so they're willing to pay the higher rates, well that makes those loan payments higher when they get done. Well that means more delinquencies. The cycle self reinforces until all hell breaks loose. Add on to that the fact that tuition rates rise on average 8% a year, far faster than inflation, and you can see how this situation is not sustainable. That's basically what happened to the housing market.
That's just the face value of the student loan bubble. One of the problems that isn't quite as intuitive is the long term problem that's more of an undertone, a hidden cost. Those hidden costs are that each $1 spent paying back these loans is less money people are spending on the goods and services that keep the economy afloat. For example. I am getting a pharmacy doctorate degree. This degree used to be a bachelor's degree up until ~15-20 years ago. So all those who graduated before they changed it to a 4 year professional degree had ~$130,000 + interest over 10-20 years, that they kept in their pocket that anyone who graduated after they made the new requirement such as myself do not have. Well, the problem is that that's $130,000 less money being spent on going out to eat supporting local restaurants etc. etc. that make the world go round. Then all the money those restaurant owners would've made doesn't get spent on whatever they would've bought etc. and down the line it goes. So as college tuition increases and interest rates increase, here comes more downward pressure on the economy. Except the bolded part isn't true. That quoted figure includes underemployment, NOT just unemployment. Underemployment makes up a majority of that figure. And the rate you have to pay back your student loans is dependent upon your income. Not making much? You're paying less back. This is not true in the case of private loans, which are making up an ever increasing portion of total student loan share, especially as state schools cut scholarship funds and students are forced to make up the difference. Private loans now account for $150 billion of total student debt. Again, a lot of people are making poor choices when it comes to allocating student loan debt, but the system is practically set up to encourage such behavior. That's such a bullshit excuse to me. People just aren't willing to go through some hardships to see a better outcome on the other side. So they rack up insurmountable debts to live a certain lifestyle during college, because all the other kids are doing it. Maybe I'm lucky in that I already make $50k/year without a college degree, but I've been smart and saved a good portion of my income, and am now able to pay for school without any debt. For some folks, it is a bullshit excuse. But your anecdotal experience does not correlate with the overall picture of the current labor market in reference to entrance level debt and education value, and I'm inclined to think that you amongst a few others are simply expecting the worst when it comes to the plight of your fellow man. Instead of a knee-jerk "well its obvious all these stupid fucks are irresponsible, why couldn't they be like me!" why not go with an attempt at understanding that a huge number of people find themselves in places of financial distress by no agency of their own, whether that take the shape of a cosigner losing their job or a sudden illness that pushes back a degree a few years. For others, misfortune can come down to something as simple as not making it through the last stage of an interview repeatedly. Let me put it this way. The US economy is currently undergoing a fair amount of international transitive distress as it is forced to change the manner with which it produces a labor force that better reflects global standards of skilled/unskilled labor costs and respective educational requirements. Additionally, banks in general are literally fucking everybody, even themselves. The entire system is being shaken and transformed, and yet a flimsy vilification of those with literally the least ability to change or weather the storm are who you are choosing to blame, and I really do not think this makes sense. Again, I recognize that part of moving forward is going to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of those who take on student loans, but this is only a small part of the overall problem. Well, that's not what I was trying to say, but I was on a roll, and it came out. There was a post just a few above yours that touched on people being wildly irresponsible with their student loans (using it for cars, vacations, etc), and I incorrectly combined the two ideas. I agree with what you're saying, but for whatever reason, combined your thoughts with the irresponsibility of some loan takers, and then made a blanket statement. Dumb, and irresponsible, but I did it anyway. The problem is multifactoral, though, and a single post here, even maybe a thousand posts, isn't really enough to define the problem. Word, having come from a massive state school myself, I was surrounded by quite a few kids who were obviously only in Columbus to see the Buckeyes play and get fuckin hammered, so I can sympathize. And I do agree that the problem is quite complicated, though I do not see that as a reason to despair or not attempt to figure out solutions. Gotta at least try.
Agreed, again. It's a problem that we have to solve, and I think it's ludicrous to only leave it to those that are supposedly qualified (current politicians, etc). Those same people are the people we entrusted in the first place, and the problem was created with them in place (whether or not it was because of them, or in spite of them). An intelligent person with good ideas could come up with a very good solution to the problem, and that person could potentially be on this forum. If such an idea came up, then it's up to that person (and like minded thinkers) to get those ideas to people in positions of power to make changes.
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The entire education system is foolish. I highly recommend for you to search YouTube for Sir Ken Robinson's talks, especially his TED talk "Do Schools Kill Creativity?". If you search that, you should have no problem finding it. It is incredible insightful and part of it shows why Degrees are steadily meaning less and less. Our education system today teaches kids that they must go down a few certain paths, deemed by the government to be the right ones. The process is highly limiting for kids and breeds them to all go to college to get there degree in things they most likely hate.
From and economic stand point, I don't see how the United States can continue to be an economic super power unless major changes happen pretty soon.
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On December 12 2012 14:05 cavalier117 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:42 Sub40APM wrote:On December 12 2012 10:30 heroyi wrote:
Again, people don't understand when you have, for example, a business degree you aren't going to be using that degree as a ticket to riches. Instead you have to use the education you experienced while obtaining the degree to help you go take the initiative (working on resume, job experiences, insight to start a business etc...) NOT "oh hi, i got a bachelor in business, can i has 40000000000 dollar paycheck."
But there are degrees like that. Any degree from an elite university ---> easy path to consulting or banking [well, less so now] that gets you a 75-125k job that does not use anything you learned in the previous 4 years. Law degree from an elite university does the same thing. The only thing that I used from law school at work was the existence of law-search engines. But maybe people from the hard science side can speak of their experience re: using the things they've learned in school as a valuable job skill vs. the fact that they went to school is the reason they got a job. Learning vs. Guild-like-entry-level-gate-keeping. except that doesnt happen at all.... anywhere... i know your high school counselers and academic advisors tell you that you need perfect grades, and a vast array of extra curriculars and go to harvard to get the job of your dreams, but its not true. in the grand scheme of things, employers only care about 2 things; 1: what experience do you have? 2: how do you know and what is your connections? three stirling examples of people i know 1: BA in financing and Accounting from Duke Business school (top ten school for business) went for an emphasis on stock markets. had a decent internship and was tied for highest in class. bright future right? nope, his internship was in a management firm and really wasnt experience, and none of his references counted for anything either because they were not part of his field he wanted. its been 9 monthes, no job. (one thing to note here, he COULD get a good job in either financing or accounting, but he still wants into the trade markets so he's still trying) 2:got his BA in Business Administration, then went directly to grad school for his MBA. (in business school, your initially taught that getting your MBA is like climbing the top of the mountain, then basejumping back to earth to an easy job with a high pay, also read as BULLSHIT) he has graduated, MBA in hand, looking for a management position in several companies. none will hire him. Why? no management experience. let me put this into perspective. he grew up in the hometown as Cabelas (a billion dollar outdoors company) he went to school with the kids of the VPs and board of Directors. he started wortking for Cabelas, when he was 16, he got an internship with them through college, as an assistant to the VP of sales.(EVERYONE knew him) And when he graduated from grad school at 26, working for Cabelas for 10 years. they STILL wouldnt give him a position indicative to his qualifications. why? no actual management experience. 3:Friend graduated from a decent state college, in computer science. he was always a computer genius and we were pretty sure he was gonna get a job programming or coding. anyways. he went to New York to a Facebook event on hacking. successfully hacked whatever they presented him. and made friends with various ppl in the IT security at Facebook. Where's he at now? Living in Palo Alto working for FB in internet security (making bank) what the story here? its not where you went to school, or what u did in it. Employers really dont care about your GPA (most wont even check it) so those extra ribbons you wore on graduation? yea they will continue to look good, in your closet. its about WHO you know, (networking will get you further in life than anything you will EVER do in college, so if you do anything in college, meet people with connections and hang on to them) and what you have done.
Complete bullshit. Quite frankly, your friends either were looking for jobs beyond them, or are simply terrible interviewers. I received tons of interviews and had nothing near those qualifications. My firm I'm at has been hiring like crazy. There's thousands of thousands of jobs on college boards at any time. Most employers DO screen for GPAs.
All my friends and I that actively pursued jobs while still in school all received offers from multiple firms and had tons of interviews each. Many turned downs tons of proposals. If a company is hiring from your school, there's a reason for that. It's because the want candidates from your school. That's why they have on campus interviews, and then interview like 30+ people that apply.
If people can't even get interviews, it's because their resumes suck. I have had zero connections to EVERY single job interview I went to. I had two extremely strong recommendations for a Deloitte Consulting position from two TOP performing Deloitte consultants and didn't even manage to get the interview because I completely blew a preliminary case study that was supposedly a "get to know what the field is about!" type event hosted by the finance association.
Current job? Literally just applied online, didn't know anyone, went through the normal process, got hired. Drove 2 hours to the interviews during finals week. Finished an interview, drove back up, barely made finals in time one quarter. You have to do whatever it takes to get the job, but if you put in effort, you'll get a job. If you don't, you didn't try hard enough during your college career, or you completely blow at interviewing, you're going for jobs way above what the market wants you for (aka your MBA friend thinking he can start right off in a management position? that sounds ridiculous to me with no experience), or you're doing something else wrong.
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My only problem with college is that I really don't see the point of taking all these bullshit math classes when I'm not touching anything STEM related. Can anybody tell me why the fuck I need to pass Calculus to get a Business major?
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On December 12 2012 15:18 Skullflower wrote:
My only problem with college is that I really don't see the point of taking all these bullshit math classes when I'm not touching anything STEM related. Can anybody tell me why the fuck I need to pass Calculus to get a Business major?
Might as well learn SOMETHING interesting while you're there
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EPT
