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On November 24 2012 04:33 Denda Reloaded wrote:even if gays would choose to be gay... can't they?
Amen, brother.
I never understood these people who argue for Gay Rights because "you don't choose who you are attracted to" or "even animals have gay sex" or anything along those lines.
In my opinion, the point that ought to be made is this :
Why should the "naturality" of homosexuality have any weight in the question?
People can fuck whoever they want, and I fail to see why anyone should have a say in this except the people involved.
And I also fail to see why the fact that they have a choice or not in deciding/wanting to have same-sex relations matters.
(obviously, I refer here to people agreeing to have sex, not rape or child-abuse situations, just felt like clarifying to prevent trolling)
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On November 24 2012 01:26 Qwyn wrote:
Well, it is certainly understandable why Uganda would do that. I don't have a personal opinion on the matter, except to say that:
It is what it is. For much of history to be gay was akin to witchcraft or heresy...it was simply inconceivable. The idea of socially accepted, open homo-sexuality on a large scale is a radical concept...one that is almost purely modern.
The reaction of many people is thus, understandable. Regardless of my personal views on the subject, tolerance of homosexuality is becoming far more widespread, perpetuated by the liberal media, technology, social services...
Too many people are not considering the opposite side of the coin before they state their opinions. They do not consider that many people have deep religious beliefs that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and that homosexuality is considered an evil. Do you honestly expect that many of these religious believers would ACCEPT open, socially tolerated homosexuality? Of course not! It goes against a fundamental belief.
TL is largely populated by people with extremely left viewpoints. It gets almost sickening after awhile. Part of adopting a strong opinion on an issue is to consider all sides.
Which ultimately led me not to have a personal opinion.
Except to say that: it is what it is.
So essentially, you're saying that because people of one religion don't like TEH GAYZ, they should be allowed to force their beliefs onto everybody else and given the right to kill homosexuals that aren't even of their religion?.....
Also, in terms of history, you might want to look at the greeks....
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This is so sad. Like I feel bad for them, Uganda and the gay people having to deal living in that country. But third world countries are plagued by christian cultural oppression the most, and this is one of the result (which is as bad as the anti condom campaign).
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-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
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On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote:
-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
I can't remember reading anything more ignorant in a while...
Gays are fighting because they are still being murdered for being gay all over the planet.
And in the countries where the lynch mobs have slightly cooled off, they are still being discriminated against on a daily basis.
I'm sure they'll "keep it out of your face" as soon as they are finally equal to the rest of mankind.
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Is this the same country that made the eat da poo poo video??
EDIT: OH YEAH it is hahaha.
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On November 24 2012 01:26 Qwyn wrote:
Well, it is certainly understandable why Uganda would do that. I don't have a personal opinion on the matter, except to say that:
It is what it is. For much of history to be gay was akin to witchcraft or heresy...it was simply inconceivable. The idea of socially accepted, open homo-sexuality on a large scale is a radical concept...one that is almost purely modern.
The reaction of many people is thus, understandable. Regardless of my personal views on the subject, tolerance of homosexuality is becoming far more widespread, perpetuated by the liberal media, technology, social services...
Too many people are not considering the opposite side of the coin before they state their opinions. They do not consider that many people have deep religious beliefs that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and that homosexuality is considered an evil. Do you honestly expect that many of these religious believers would ACCEPT open, socially tolerated homosexuality? Of course not! It goes against a fundamental belief.
TL is largely populated by people with extremely left viewpoints. It gets almost sickening after awhile. Part of adopting a strong opinion on an issue is to consider all sides.
Which ultimately led me not to have a personal opinion.
Except to say that: it is what is.
Dude, you obviously have an opinion.
Surely if I replaced homosexuality with religion in that paragraph and place the setting in the USSR you won't be going all superior with your "it is what it is".
To address your "other side of the coin" matter, a fundamental belief is never a justification to be considered, otherwise to the bad apples blowing up things in the name of jihad you'd also have to say :
"it is what it is"
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote:
-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
Gays aren't shutting up about it because they are being tortured and killed, both legally and illegally, all over the world. Even worse, many areas that do that are filled to the brim with glue-sniffing retards, so there's this whole frenzy going on about finding out who's gay and who isn't that is comparable to all those witch trials we had back in the day.
Also, human civilization has been hating on gays for pretty much as long as we knew about them (read: hundreds, maybe even thousands of years). Only recently have they actually ever gone out and done all these parades and such. In other words, gay hate precedes gay pride.
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On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote:
-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
Ever heard of labour day? The day where workers celebrate the progress of gaining worker's rights through literally centuries if not millenias of struggles? Somehow I don't think anyone is complaining about that, regardless of whether or not the existence of worker's rights or unions actually impeaches on their interests, because they recognize that celebrating the achievement and continued existence of rights for a broad group of people who have fought for their rights is extremely important to the integrity of society. And if they do complain about it it becomes extremely obvious just what priorities that individual has. Now apply that to homosexuals or people fighting for sexual freedom / rights. I don't want to keep repeating myself but the gay pride parade isn't just about homosexuals, it's also about the ability to express and live with your given sexuality against societal pressures and norms, and emcompasses groups that are not only limited to homosexuals, including transexuals, bi-sexuals, people who are born with a genetic disorder in chromosomes exhibiting dual sex characteristics and so on.
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This is the bill that Chik-fil-A was (indirectly) sponsoring. Everyone completely missed the point when they made the protest about free speech. It wasn't about free speech. It was literally about murder.
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On November 24 2012 06:26 dAPhREAk wrote:it was only recently that the United States Supreme Court overturned such homosexuality laws. food for thought for the "africa is backcountry" crowd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Yeah...America is pretty backwards when it comes to human rights. The deep south is still vehemently racist which sickens me.
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On November 24 2012 04:01 whereismymind wrote:The main reason for pushing this far, is religion again: Quote from wiki: Show nested quote +Fundamentalist Christianity
In 2009, many news sources reported on Jeff Sharlet's investigation regarding ties between Museveni and the American fundamentalist Christian organization The Fellowship (also known as "The Family").[58][59] Sharlet reports that Douglas Coe, leader of The Fellowship, identified Museveni as the organization's "key man in Africa."[59] Further international scrutiny accompanied the 2009 Ugandan efforts to institute the death penalty for homosexuality, with leaders from Canada, the UK, the US, and France expressing concerns for human rights.[60][61] British newspaper The Guardian reported that President Museveni "appeared to add his backing" to the legislative effort by, among other things, claiming "European homosexuals are recruiting in Africa", and saying gay relationships were against God's will.[62] The 2009 effort for harsher penalties for homosexual behavior further strengthens existing laws criminalizing homosexuality. I want to throw up ... man I hate relig..... damn.
Yeah...being gay and religious myself, I am incredibly ashamed. Stuff like this confirms my belief that the best way for true Christianity to survive is if we burn down all Christian institutions. The Evangelicals are definitely outnumbers good people like Desmond Tutu.
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On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote:
-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
What are you talking about, in countries where gays are open and "in your face" about it less and less people hate gays (correlation, not causation, but it proves you wrong anyway). In Uganda I doubt they are having pride parades or being open at all. They would be lynched on the streets. They are trying to survive out of sight.
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On November 24 2012 01:26 Qwyn wrote:
Well, it is certainly understandable why Uganda would do that. I don't have a personal opinion on the matter, except to say that:
It is what it is. For much of history to be gay was akin to witchcraft or heresy...it was simply inconceivable. The idea of socially accepted, open homo-sexuality on a large scale is a radical concept...one that is almost purely modern.
The reaction of many people is thus, understandable. Regardless of my personal views on the subject, tolerance of homosexuality is becoming far more widespread, perpetuated by the liberal media, technology, social services...
Too many people are not considering the opposite side of the coin before they state their opinions. They do not consider that many people have deep religious beliefs that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and that homosexuality is considered an evil. Do you honestly expect that many of these religious believers would ACCEPT open, socially tolerated homosexuality? Of course not! It goes against a fundamental belief.
TL is largely populated by people with extremely left viewpoints. It gets almost sickening after awhile. Part of adopting a strong opinion on an issue is to consider all sides.
Which ultimately led me not to have a personal opinion.
This is factually wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
Also rofl at TL being "extreme leftists".
Homosexuality is NOT a "modern" concept. It is largely society dependant, but by the looks of it, ancient Greeks and Romans had a much more "modern" view on it than many of today's most "modern" states.
On topic: I think such a thing is atrocious, but still, I think this issue might be just a minor thing among all that is wrong with Uganda.
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On November 23 2012 22:45 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 22:43 agfoxGnom wrote:
Totally support this, Africa is much more clever than white people world and we are calling them 3rd world countries. Maybe it is us who are really 3rd world countries and this world is not about money, but about morality? If I ever doubt that I am on the right side of history, I need only listen to the other side to have my worries put to rest.
I'm sure your opposition says the same of you.
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I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
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On November 24 2012 07:00 Ender985 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 01:26 Qwyn wrote:
Well, it is certainly understandable why Uganda would do that. I don't have a personal opinion on the matter, except to say that:
It is what it is. For much of history to be gay was akin to witchcraft or heresy...it was simply inconceivable. The idea of socially accepted, open homo-sexuality on a large scale is a radical concept...one that is almost purely modern.
The reaction of many people is thus, understandable. Regardless of my personal views on the subject, tolerance of homosexuality is becoming far more widespread, perpetuated by the liberal media, technology, social services...
Too many people are not considering the opposite side of the coin before they state their opinions. They do not consider that many people have deep religious beliefs that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and that homosexuality is considered an evil. Do you honestly expect that many of these religious believers would ACCEPT open, socially tolerated homosexuality? Of course not! It goes against a fundamental belief.
TL is largely populated by people with extremely left viewpoints. It gets almost sickening after awhile. Part of adopting a strong opinion on an issue is to consider all sides.
Which ultimately led me not to have a personal opinion. This is factually wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greecehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_RomeAlso rofl at TL being "extreme leftists". Homosexuality is NOT a "modern" concept. It is largely society dependant, but by the looks of it, ancient Greeks and Romans had a much more "modern" view on it than many of today's most "modern" states. On topic: I think such a thing is atrocious, but still, I think this issue might be just a minor thing among all that is wrong with Uganda.
Glad to see those two examples being used, but when people only use Greece and Rome, it promotes the idea that homosexuality was only invented in the West.
China, Japan, Thailand, and the Americas also had quite a gay history.
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On November 24 2012 06:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote:
-sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own. Gays aren't shutting up about it because they are being tortured and killed, both legally and illegally, all over the world. Even worse, many areas that do that are filled to the brim with glue-sniffing retards, so there's this whole frenzy going on about finding out who's gay and who isn't that is comparable to all those witch trials we had back in the day. Also, human civilization has been hating on gays for pretty much as long as we knew about them (read: hundreds, maybe even thousands of years). Only recently have they actually ever gone out and done all these parades and such. In other words, gay hate precedes gay pride.
On November 24 2012 05:30 GTPGlitch wrote:
Also, in terms of history, you might want to look at the greeks....
I see there's so much ignorance in this case. Homosexuality hasn't really been frowned upon in alot of historic cultures, it's pretty much only during the rise of the major religions that condemning homosexuality rose to inhumane levels.
As for an (incomplete) list of historic cultures that have been shown (by evidence) to have accepted homosexuality:
Africa
Ancient egypt (contested) - Shown in scriptures in the bible and various drawings by egyptians themselves.
Various tribes such as Lesotho and Azande before European colonization - oral evidence from elders.
Americas
Pretty much every indigenous people of the Americas, Mayans, Incas, Iroquois, etc. In fact they were often even revered as powerful shamans, more powerful than ordinary ones. - As shown in Spanish letters and oral evidence.
East Asia
China (Qing, Ming, pretty much every dynasty) - Well documented, as nearly everything was in China.
Ancient Japan - Not nearly as well documented, although various tales reference it and Emperors have been shown to have had same-sex lovers.
Europe
Various Greek periods - Do I even need to? :>
Rome - Nearly all emperors, although at the end of the roman empire it started to become unlawful in the empire due to Christian infuence.
Renaissance in Italy (although authorities did not condone) - Tailored to Greek and Rome's example.
France and possibly other countries (contested) - 'enbrotherment' was a legal category used for two men to share quarters and resources, effectively making it a marriage and living as a couple.
Middle East, South and Central Asia
Never has really been allowed for the exception of Persia, although it was quite wide spread at times.
South Pacific
Very prevalent, even integral part of life before introduction of Christianity by missionaries. The Etoro and Marind-anim (and possibly others) have even viewed heterosexuality as sinful and celebrated homosexuality instead.
For more in-depth information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality and references on that page. If you search for specific ancient cultures I'm sure you can find even more than listed on this page and those that I listed by referencing Wikipedia and other sources.
edit: So ninja'd while I was writing this... :<
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EPT
