On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
I get the idea that you are somewhat contradicting yourself. On one side you are praising personal freedom and on the other hand you are against it as you have no trouble with people who harm noone being jailed and discriminated by the state. Because the gays there won't be able to blow the others off, they will be jailed and lynched. Nice of you to be ok with that. Btw, most people here are not trying to say we should invade Uganda and force them to do something.
And to a larger point, there are no different moralities when it comes to people being made to suffer for harmless behaviour, there is the moral and ethical code and the evil and immoral one. No relativity here, no "their morality is as valid as ours". The proposed laws are evil, universally.
I don't agree with these laws being proposed by Uganda, but as you say yourself, no one is advocating an invasion of Uganda. We are welcome to disagree with these Ugandan laws, but if that's all we're doing... what's the point? Just to go "rabble rabble rabble!" online, and then go to sleep feeling good about yourself for being a progressive member of society? I have to agree with StarMoon to an extent. Sure I don't agree with what Uganda is doing, but what can we do about it?
We can do things, not necessarily military. But which ones exactly is hard to decide. There are other ways to either put pressure on the oppressors or help the oppressed. As for why people discuss it, well evidently because people like to discuss things. As for me, I hope that someone will post something interesting that will enhance my own viewpoint. Not very likely in a thread with this topic, but it might happen.
On November 24 2012 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
That doesn't mean that people can't be right or wrong regarding questions of morality. Not every view point is equally valid on the subject of morality.
On November 24 2012 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
That doesn't mean that people can't be right or wrong regarding questions of morality. Not every view point is equally valid on the subject of morality.
Indeed, morality nowadays is largely based on rational and sane discussion. Thank go... science for that.
On November 24 2012 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
That doesn't mean that people can't be right or wrong regarding questions of morality. Not every view point is equally valid on the subject of morality.
And if you could make another nation agree with you, that would be peachy. But you can't.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
On November 24 2012 08:01 Cheerio wrote: Ok for people thinking they've got a liberal point of view here is the question: should cousin (first, second, third) marriage be allowed?
Biologically, cousins are far enough removed that genetics are not an issue. Legally, most nations in the world allow it. Morally, there isn't any reason that wouldn't apply to childhood friends or children of close family friends.
But should we still give money and aid to Uganda if this is how they wish to help themselves? We can potentially use political sanctions, but should we reward them? I bet the red cross have some gay volunteers. They should leave the country for sure.
War is not the only way to put pressure on someone. If you do not condone their policies, at all, you can sanction them in many ways. For instance not trade with them.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
I get the idea that you are somewhat contradicting yourself. On one side you are praising personal freedom and on the other hand you are against it as you have no trouble with people who harm noone being jailed and discriminated by the state. Because the gays there won't be able to blow the others off, they will be jailed and lynched. Nice of you to be ok with that. Btw, most people here are not trying to say we should invade Uganda and force them to do something.
And to a larger point, there are no different moralities when it comes to people being made to suffer for harmless behaviour, there is the moral and ethical code and the evil and immoral one. No relativity here, no "their morality is as valid as ours". The proposed laws are evil, universally.
I don't agree with these laws being proposed by Uganda, but as you say yourself, no one is advocating an invasion of Uganda. We are welcome to disagree with these Ugandan laws, but if that's all we're doing... what's the point? Just to go "rabble rabble rabble!" online, and then go to sleep feeling good about yourself for being a progressive member of society? I have to agree with StarMoon to an extent. Sure I don't agree with what Uganda is doing, but what can we do about it?
Yes? This is an international forum. I live in a pretty homophobic country myself. Until I saw how vocal even straight people in developed countries are about defending the rights of minorities I was very hesitant of ever speaking my mind about homosexuality. Now when I see someone being retarded about homosexuals I step up to show how miserable they are (yes, it backfires quite often). I even bring it up myself sometimes to see how narrow-minded a person is. Since than quite a few people have come out to me (but not to other people, it's a secret) and I'm quite proud I earned their respect and trust. So the point is even in the internet defending the rights of minorities is totally worth it and can actually change things especially in less-developed countries.
On November 24 2012 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
That doesn't mean that people can't be right or wrong regarding questions of morality. Not every view point is equally valid on the subject of morality.
And if you could make another nation agree with you, that would be peachy. But you can't.
Funny how most of them agree on many things. For example, like all developed countries agree on this specific topic.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
On November 24 2012 08:01 Cheerio wrote: Ok for people thinking they've got a liberal point of view here is the question: should cousin (first, second, third) marriage be allowed?
Biologically, cousins are far enough removed that genetics are not an issue. Legally, most nations in the world allow it. Morally, there isn't any reason that wouldn't apply to childhood friends or children of close family friends.
But should we still give money and aid to Uganda if this is how they wish to help themselves? We can potentially use political sanctions, but should we reward them? I bet the red cross have some gay volunteers. They should leave the country for sure.
War is not the only way to put pressure on someone. If you do not condone their policies, at all, you can sanction them in many ways. For instance not trade with them.
It is not that easy. What if sanctions and Red cross leaving leads to more suffering. Poverty often brings worst in people and they much more easily follow some genocidal maniacs. So stopping help might even worsen the whole problem. I am not saying we should just continue as before, but simple solutions rarely do not have bad side-effects.
On November 24 2012 06:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote: -sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
Gays aren't shutting up about it because they are being tortured and killed, both legally and illegally, all over the world. Even worse, many areas that do that are filled to the brim with glue-sniffing retards, so there's this whole frenzy going on about finding out who's gay and who isn't that is comparable to all those witch trials we had back in the day. Also, human civilization has been hating on gays for pretty much as long as we knew about them (read: hundreds, maybe even thousands of years). Only recently have they actually ever gone out and done all these parades and such. In other words, gay hate precedes gay pride.
On November 24 2012 05:30 GTPGlitch wrote: Also, in terms of history, you might want to look at the greeks....
I see there's so much ignorance in this case. Homosexuality hasn't really been frowned upon in alot of historic cultures, it's pretty much only during the rise of the major religions that condemning homosexuality rose to inhumane levels.
As for an (incomplete) list of historic cultures that have been shown (by evidence) to have accepted homosexuality: Africa Ancient egypt (contested) - Shown in scriptures in the bible and various drawings by egyptians themselves. Various tribes such as Lesotho and Azande before European colonization - oral evidence from elders.
Americas Pretty much every indigenous people of the Americas, Mayans, Incas, Iroquois, etc. In fact they were often even revered as powerful shamans, more powerful than ordinary ones. - As shown in Spanish letters and oral evidence.
East Asia China (Qing, Ming, pretty much every dynasty) - Well documented, as nearly everything was in China. Ancient Japan - Not nearly as well documented, although various tales reference it and Emperors have been shown to have had same-sex lovers.
Europe Various Greek periods - Do I even need to? :> Rome - Nearly all emperors, although at the end of the roman empire it started to become unlawful in the empire due to Christian infuence. Renaissance in Italy (although authorities did not condone) - Tailored to Greek and Rome's example. France and possibly other countries (contested) - 'enbrotherment' was a legal category used for two men to share quarters and resources, effectively making it a marriage and living as a couple.
Middle East, South and Central Asia Never has really been allowed for the exception of Persia, although it was quite wide spread at times.
South Pacific Very prevalent, even integral part of life before introduction of Christianity by missionaries. The Etoro and Marind-anim (and possibly others) have even viewed heterosexuality as sinful and celebrated homosexuality instead.
For more in-depth information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality and references on that page. If you search for specific ancient cultures I'm sure you can find even more than listed on this page and those that I listed by referencing Wikipedia and other sources.
edit: So ninja'd while I was writing this... :<
Heh, sorry greece was really the only one I was familiar with, ty for enlightenment :3
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
On November 24 2012 08:01 Cheerio wrote: Ok for people thinking they've got a liberal point of view here is the question: should cousin (first, second, third) marriage be allowed?
Biologically, cousins are far enough removed that genetics are not an issue. Legally, most nations in the world allow it. Morally, there isn't any reason that wouldn't apply to childhood friends or children of close family friends.
But should we still give money and aid to Uganda if this is how they wish to help themselves? We can potentially use political sanctions, but should we reward them? I bet the red cross have some gay volunteers. They should leave the country for sure.
War is not the only way to put pressure on someone. If you do not condone their policies, at all, you can sanction them in many ways. For instance not trade with them.
Lot of questions here:
1) You can't force beliefs to change. You certainly can't threaten a nation (with military force or sanctions) to make them conform to your beliefs.
2) Why are you sending aid in the first place? If you're only providing help as long as you approve of their society, then essentially you just see "aid" as a means to mould another nation into yours.
3) What are you pressuring for? The end of the killing, the acceptance of homosexuals, the end of discrimination?
On November 24 2012 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
That doesn't mean that people can't be right or wrong regarding questions of morality. Not every view point is equally valid on the subject of morality.
And if you could make another nation agree with you, that would be peachy. But you can't.
Funny how most of them agree on many things. For example, like all developed countries agree on this specific topic.
Then I would suggest that bringing a nation to a 1st world economy is more effective than threats.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
On November 24 2012 08:01 Cheerio wrote: Ok for people thinking they've got a liberal point of view here is the question: should cousin (first, second, third) marriage be allowed?
Biologically, cousins are far enough removed that genetics are not an issue. Legally, most nations in the world allow it. Morally, there isn't any reason that wouldn't apply to childhood friends or children of close family friends.
But should we still give money and aid to Uganda if this is how they wish to help themselves? We can potentially use political sanctions, but should we reward them? I bet the red cross have some gay volunteers. They should leave the country for sure.
War is not the only way to put pressure on someone. If you do not condone their policies, at all, you can sanction them in many ways. For instance not trade with them.
It is not that easy. What if sanctions and Red cross leaving leads to more suffering. Poverty often brings worst in people and they much more easily follow some genocidal maniacs. So stopping help might even worsen the whole problem. I am not saying we should just continue as before, but simple solutions rarely do not have bad side-effects.
But seeing as this is what they themselves focus on, who are we to aid them when they do not focus on helping themselves and instead use resources on a witch hunt. It's already "impossible" to help a country that wants help. But helping one that doesn't want to help itself is backwards imo. Why should we attempt to prioritize for them, when they seem to care about something different entirely. Should we send them surveillance equipment so they can find and jail gays? Should we send them money when this is what they would potentially be doing with it?
Obviously it's not that simple. But I feel like this is the choice they made for themselves. Helping murderers isn't as simple as helping the "innocent". I think there will still be organizations doing relief work, but they should seriously start filtering out their gay volunteers and send them elsewhere.
Perhaps the threat of relief workers leaving the country, and political sanctions against trade with Uganda, will kill this law before it takes full effect. Might be worth considering.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
I think he'd say that he 'isn't against it'. He hasn't stated he is for it, but it is difficult to say that "not being against murder" is a neutral standpoint.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
It is entirely about morals. They certainly wouldn't be outlawing homosexuality because they think it's in style.
And it's their own business. I believe I explicitly stated it's impossible to forcibly change their beliefs.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
It is entirely about morals. They certainly wouldn't be outlawing homosexuality because they think it's in style.
And it's their own business. I believe I explicitly stated it's impossible to forcibly change their beliefs.
It's not impossible to change someones beliefs, but it's much simpler forcing them to change their laws. The UN could probably do it in a few hours, seeing as they are all about human rights.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
It is entirely about morals. They certainly wouldn't be outlawing homosexuality because they think it's in style.
And it's their own business. I believe I explicitly stated it's impossible to forcibly change their beliefs.
It's not impossible to change someones beliefs, but it's much simpler forcing them to change their laws. The UN could probably do it in a few hours, seeing as they are all about human rights.
Force them how? Tell them to accept homosexuality or you'll invade them? Accept it or you'll cripple their economy?
And then you'll have a nation that hates homosexuality in everything except law, and hate the western world for telling them what to think.
On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
It is entirely about morals. They certainly wouldn't be outlawing homosexuality because they think it's in style.
And it's their own business. I believe I explicitly stated it's impossible to forcibly change their beliefs.
It's not impossible to change someones beliefs, but it's much simpler forcing them to change their laws. The UN could probably do it in a few hours, seeing as they are all about human rights.
Force them how? Tell them to accept homosexuality or you'll invade them? Accept it or you'll cripple their economy?
And then you'll have a nation that hates homosexuality in everything except law, and hate the western world for telling them what to think.
Political sanctions. Will likely work. Depends on how they prioritize. Why would we invade them -_-. Don't think we would have anything to do there.
The reason we aid them is because of we believe in human rights. Would make sense to pressure them into abiding by our set of human rights if we are to continue relief work in the name of human rights.
EPT
