On November 24 2012 07:05 StarMoon wrote: I am a Canadian, and I like my country. It has a lot of positive elements about it.
If people in Uganda or Uganda officially were to try to tell us Canadians how to do things, I wouldn't give a flying shit, and I'd sincerely hope my government wouldn't either. Heck, when we get a whiff that the US is influencing things unduely there's generally some outcry about it.
So, likewise, Uganda has the right to not have us Canadians play World Police and tell them what morals they should have and how to run their country, as long as their country is peaceful and not harming Canadians (or our allies/friends) in any way; and to my knowledge they are not.
Its just like personal freedom: I should be allowed to do as I wish, as long as it does not harm others or society, and -group- can express how they disagree with .... lets say how much I watch Starcraft, but I have the right to blow them off.
I feel I didn't express myself as clearly as I would've liked, but hopefully people get the idea.
yeah I got your idea just fine: as long as you, your fellow Canadians, and their allies/friends are not hurt, you are perfectly fine with Ugandians doing all kinds of atrocities to the minorities among their own people.
This is a pretty pathetic straw man.
Morality in every single nation is vastly different and the development of society and culture is not the same across the globe, and, most importantly, every nation believes in their own society in one way or another.
Just because you believe your own moral system is the correct one, and just because you have the power and strength to impose those beliefs on other nations, does not mean you should be forcibly trying to change the views of an entire society to adhere to yours. Even more than that, there simply isn't a way to force a nation to follow your own moral code.
This is not the morals we are talking about this is the law initiative that causes outrage. Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for homosexual people in Uganda? Yes/No/It's their own business?
And it's their own business. I believe I explicitly stated it's impossible to forcibly change their beliefs.
Do you support imprisonment and even death sentence for Jews in Germany in WW2? Yes/No/It was their own (the Germans) business?
P.S. Btw a post on the 1st page has this great video about the whole situation. I highly suggest everyone watches it to get an understanding of what is actually going on and why was this law initiative launched.
On November 23 2012 20:56 acidstormy wrote: There was a full documentary following this bill on youtube. It is an amazing one. Unfortunately, i think the channel that actually made it took it down, but here is part 1/5.
Edit: If only people could use their persuasive speech, passion, and efforts towards peace...
the original statement is just completely naive though. we don't have the power to force morality on to others but we can try when it comes to things like persecuting minorities.
There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
And they should tell you that your an idiot as well. AIDs is almost completely spread through heterosexual sex and drug use in Africa. Try actually researching the issue.
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
Very smart. So smart. executing people is the solution. how could we be so blind?
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
Very smart. So smart. executing people is the solution. how could we be so blind?
Well it would have been a solution if they actually executed gay people with AIDS, as of now they plan to execute all gay people just in case. If they start fighting AIDS the same way among straight people there will be soon no people left to enjoy the beautiful country without AIDS
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
Very smart. So smart. executing people is the solution. how could we be so blind?
Well it would have been a solution if they actually executed gay people with AIDS, as of now they plan to execute all gay people just in case.
Solution? Hardly.
Pregnant women with HIV/aids pass it on to their children at birth. etc, etc. (unmarried) Men infecting other (unmarried) men isn't a big problem.
On November 24 2012 09:39 forgotten0ne wrote: There is one man throughout the thread smart enough to point out the fact that Uganda is a country rampant with AIDS issues, and everyone tells him he's an idiot. Well played TL, well played.
Because he was wrong. Uganda is actually one of those rare African countries that instead of embracing denial or blaming the West or doing nothing set up a pro-active anti-Aids campaign. Which is why its AIDS prevalence rates are significantly lower than South Africas. Unfortunately, thanks to Christian evangelicals the government has now started back tracking on those programs, along with become active in anti-homosexual campaigns. The religious nut jobs think they are doing god's work, but all they've done is help to create an ideology that the current regime will try to use to maintain itself in perpetuity. Or at least the current dictator dies. Which is too bad, Uganda is a beautiful and rich country but the African Great Lakes Region must be one of the worst places to have been born in the last 50 years.
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
You clearly have no understanding of the Ugandan government nor societal climate; otherwise, you would not be putting forth oversimple declarations of concepts like "democracy", which in this particular case are entirely useless.
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
You clearly have no understanding of the Ugandan government nor societal climate; otherwise, you would not be putting forth oversimple declarations of concepts like "democracy", which in this particular case are entirely useless.
I don't know a thing about that Ugandan government. If it isn't democracy, so be it. It says that their is strong support for the bill. Again, if the people want it, then they should have it.
On November 24 2012 06:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 24 2012 05:37 tMomiji wrote: -sigh-
It's because of the people who don't shut up about it and now there's hatred of all gays because of these people. I don't care if you're gay. Please keep it out of my face. It gets annoying and old. Not to mention these people are hurting their own.
Gays aren't shutting up about it because they are being tortured and killed, both legally and illegally, all over the world. Even worse, many areas that do that are filled to the brim with glue-sniffing retards, so there's this whole frenzy going on about finding out who's gay and who isn't that is comparable to all those witch trials we had back in the day. Also, human civilization has been hating on gays for pretty much as long as we knew about them (read: hundreds, maybe even thousands of years). Only recently have they actually ever gone out and done all these parades and such. In other words, gay hate precedes gay pride.
On November 24 2012 05:30 GTPGlitch wrote: Also, in terms of history, you might want to look at the greeks....
I see there's so much ignorance in this case. Homosexuality hasn't really been frowned upon in alot of historic cultures, it's pretty much only during the rise of the major religions that condemning homosexuality rose to inhumane levels.
As for an (incomplete) list of historic cultures that have been shown (by evidence) to have accepted homosexuality: Africa Ancient egypt (contested) - Shown in scriptures in the bible and various drawings by egyptians themselves. Various tribes such as Lesotho and Azande before European colonization - oral evidence from elders.
Americas Pretty much every indigenous people of the Americas, Mayans, Incas, Iroquois, etc. In fact they were often even revered as powerful shamans, more powerful than ordinary ones. - As shown in Spanish letters and oral evidence.
East Asia China (Qing, Ming, pretty much every dynasty) - Well documented, as nearly everything was in China. Ancient Japan - Not nearly as well documented, although various tales reference it and Emperors have been shown to have had same-sex lovers.
Europe Various Greek periods - Do I even need to? :> Rome - Nearly all emperors, although at the end of the roman empire it started to become unlawful in the empire due to Christian infuence. Renaissance in Italy (although authorities did not condone) - Tailored to Greek and Rome's example. France and possibly other countries (contested) - 'enbrotherment' was a legal category used for two men to share quarters and resources, effectively making it a marriage and living as a couple.
Middle East, South and Central Asia Never has really been allowed for the exception of Persia, although it was quite wide spread at times.
South Pacific Very prevalent, even integral part of life before introduction of Christianity by missionaries. The Etoro and Marind-anim (and possibly others) have even viewed heterosexuality as sinful and celebrated homosexuality instead.
For more in-depth information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality and references on that page. If you search for specific ancient cultures I'm sure you can find even more than listed on this page and those that I listed by referencing Wikipedia and other sources.
edit: So ninja'd while I was writing this... :<
Well that's one hell of a knowledge bomb. Thanks for the info!
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
You clearly have no understanding of the Ugandan government nor societal climate; otherwise, you would not be putting forth oversimple declarations of concepts like "democracy", which in this particular case are entirely useless.
I don't know a thing about that Ugandan government. If it isn't democracy, so be it. It says that their is strong support for the bill. Again, if the people want it, then they should have it.
By that reasoning you support the Nazis of WW2... Hive mentality does not mean that something is right or even that everyone truly wants something. If homosexuality was a choice then perhaps any of their reasoning could be supported but if you follow science then you can see that it is not.
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
You clearly have no understanding of the Ugandan government nor societal climate; otherwise, you would not be putting forth oversimple declarations of concepts like "democracy", which in this particular case are entirely useless.
I don't know a thing about that Ugandan government. If it isn't democracy, so be it. It says that their is strong support for the bill. Again, if the people want it, then they should have it.
So you believe in the infallibility of the majority? Can you not see how that sort of idealism inevitably leaves a society open to committing immense atrocity in the name of consensus? We need only look to the past for ample reminder that the simplicity of popularity does not lend itself to the equitable distribution of justice and rights.
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
On November 24 2012 10:20 Monochromatic wrote: What is the problem here? The people have spoken, and they if they vote for it, then it passes. That is democracy.
As someone pointed out, so German genocide of the Jews was also "just democracy" ?
I have a problem with the OP. Being "gay friendly" does not make a person "forward thinking". It just means they aren't homophobic. There is a difference.
On November 24 2012 10:43 sambo400 wrote: I have a problem with the OP. Being "gay friendly" does not make a person "forward thinking". It just means they aren't homophobic. There is a difference.
While it's somewhat of a tenuous statement to make, I don't think it's entirely unjustified. Which of the two is more likely to be a forward thinking person? The one that's "gay friendly", or the opposite?
EPT
