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On November 13 2012 01:11 ppshchik wrote:Germany pretty much gave the moral high ground to the neo Nazis by the time they made Holocaust denial a crime. Poll: Should Holocaust denial be considered a crime?No, Holocaust denial laws are against freedom of speech (69) 63% Yes, Holocaust deniers should be in jail (41) 37% 110 total votes Your vote: Should Holocaust denial be considered a crime? (Vote): Yes, Holocaust deniers should be in jail
(Vote): No, Holocaust denial laws are against freedom of speech
Well, Holocaust denial or denial of any widely accepted scientific fact usually accompanies slander, lying, and battery against people who are affected by said event. It's just as much a crime as denying black people or women person hood and also making personal actions and judgement calls based on that assumption. Obviously you shouldn't criminalize the speech itself but it's logically coherent that said person would act in the detriment of the interests of other people, and you can criminalize actions taken based on said assumption.
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On November 13 2012 01:11 ppshchik wrote:Germany pretty much gave the moral high ground to the neo Nazis by the time they made Holocaust denial a crime. Poll: Should Holocaust denial be considered a crime?No, Holocaust denial laws are against freedom of speech (69) 63% Yes, Holocaust deniers should be in jail (41) 37% 110 total votes Your vote: Should Holocaust denial be considered a crime? (Vote): Yes, Holocaust deniers should be in jail
(Vote): No, Holocaust denial laws are against freedom of speech
There's a rather large misconception about holocaust denial laws.
Nobody's ever been incarcerated due to holocaust denial, these laws are only in place to control anti-democratic propaganda.
Your posts suggests that one could land in jail for that, but I could go up to a police-officer, stating that the holocaust never happened and be totally fine. These rules only apply to a political entity or public forums.
A teacher can be sacked for it, a book can be banned for it, a member of parliament will lose their seet for it,
but certainly nobody is going to jail for it.
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On November 13 2012 00:41 kafkaesque wrote:
"Fuck, I can't afford the new iPhone, let's gas some gypsies!"
Hilarious, but also true.
If you imagine the intelligence of the average person and realise that 50% of people are less intelligent it's no surprise that democracy leads to idiots getting publicity. If people aren't happy with your current situation because of problems (real or perceived) then someone telling you that it's all the fault of X is going to get support, especially from those too stupid to actually analyse the claims.
It's a shame that people can suck so much, but we're still doing better than we've been at almost any other point in history so I'm not too concerned.
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On November 13 2012 00:50 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 00:41 kafkaesque wrote:
"Fuck, I can't afford the new iPhone, let's gas some gypsies!" This made me burst out laughing. I think the thread title is over-stating the case here tbh.
My thoughts exactly. Also this "study" seems extremely fishy to me. Besides the increase in islamophobia all over Europe I can not really make out any increase in xenophobic/nazi/whatever ideology in the public mindset.
I think it's just a case of partisan pollsters (the institute conveying this study is closely affiliated with the social democratic party) being told what to look for and, behold, finding exactly that.
And of course the German media gobbles this up because "OH MY, NAZIS!".
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On November 13 2012 01:09 Rokit5 wrote:
But the antifascist movement in Germany is also very strong? Organistations like antifa and the likes?
Yep, just like somebody above said, when you hear in the news about a neonazi demonstration, there are usually 10 times as much "left guys" (different organisations, including antifa) protesting against it. In politics, the most left winged party called "Die Linke" also gets much more votes than the NPD. (Especially in eastern germany like 3-10 times as much).
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
9%? That's nothing. Japan actually elect leaders who deny the atrocities in WW2 to positions such as prime minister, Major of big cities, etc. Can you imagine the Major of Berlin denying that the holocaust ever happened?
Recent ad in english newspaper
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BdcXx.jpg)
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On November 13 2012 01:04 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 00:52 BluePanther wrote:On November 13 2012 00:48 helvete wrote:On November 13 2012 00:36 BluePanther wrote:
For all the comments about how America is too far right politically, Europe always has this problem and we never really do. In Europe, the GOP (or parts of it) would fit that slot nicely. Not really. It may be "far right", but it's not really a "nationalist" party. Even the GOP embraces legal immigration. I think it's because the idea of being anti-immigration isn't really a feasible concept here due to our history. I think that cuts off a lot of these feelings of someone being an "other" before they become to problematic. KKK? Tea Party about Muslims? Stormfront ? EDIT : National Socialist American Workers Freedom Movement?
A few thousand people in a country of 300 million isn't the same. Everyone has nutjobs (KKK and Stormfront and true Socialists). It's just not the same as a truly organized political force.
And while I understand that some on the far right harbor misfeelings towards Muslims, it's just not the same as NPD. We've been basically at war with extremist factions of that religion for a decade now. And nobody that I'm aware of has any sort of political agenda of extermination or forced relocation or denied immigration for followers of that religion. The only remotely close incident was the ground-zero mosque; it was allowed to go through despite fears that it might become a "shrine" to the extremists.
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I wouldn't cry things like "Nazi Uprising" yet.
We currently have a economic crisis, so naturally people are more drawn to political extremes (not just Germany, all of Europe. America probably too, but I am not informed about the state of American right extremist movements)
There will always be extremists, sure. But once the economy gets back in order, most people will stop being Nazis (or something along those lines) and get a job instead. Such is the ebb and flow of exremist ideals.
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Thing about Japan though is that we forgave a lot of the war criminals, most notably Unit 731 as long as they fought against the commies. Besides, in America and Europe, we are much more connected to Jewish people who have stories to tell. The people from Nanjing do not get as much representation...also, the Japanese government for the longest time denied the atrocities and made themselves victims to American Imperialism and other bullshit.
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Zurich15328 Posts
I think you are misrepresenting today's Germany. Germany today probably has less backing for Nazi ideology than ever before. Just look at how successful the NPD and the DVU (does anyone even still remember them?) were not even 10 years ago. Now they nothing but are a sorry shadow of their former prowess. Where did their voters go to? Certainly not to another extremist party, because there isn't one. Most of them have returned to either conservatives, local far right parties or Die Linke.
You will always have a very low number of people who will still continue to support Nazi ideas. But if anything that number goes continually down in Germany. The reason this is - once again - prominently featured in the media is of course the murders of the "Nazi terrorists" that surfaced last year. It's a sad effect, but essentially we are talking about a "Nazi uprising" because 3 people committed 10 murders over a period of 10 years.
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On November 13 2012 00:12 kafkaesque wrote:Hey guys, given Germany's history, one should think that even the most idiotic and uneducated Germans recognize Hitler's regime for what it was. However, as long as I've been able to read news, Neonazis are gaining in numbers and political strength. A recent study by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, a foundation to promote democracy, has shown that an alarming number of Germans, to be precise: 9%, embrace far right political views an sympathize with the Nazi-Party or its (rather pathetic and ineffectual) reincarnation: NPD. In East Germany, the structurally weaker ex-GDR, the numbers are downright terrifying: During the past two years, the number of far right-wings has been more than doubled, from 6.6 to more than 15%. Which makes these numbers more alarming is that those who have been indoctrinated by the original Nazis are virtually extinct, so we're speaking of an entirely new generation of Nazis. Surely these Neo-Nazis are misled by a cunning political entity?Far from it. The NPD is a joke, it's not even worth mentioning. Although they have representation in 2/16 state parliaments, with no representation in the federal government, it is extremely hard to take them seriously. Their public appearances are clumsy, borderline comical, and attest a chaotic, haphazard political program without clear direction.
Why is this problematic?If you grow up in Germany, you will be thoroughly educated about the Nazi Party. The history of the Third Reich is mandatory part of your historical education and secondary schools frequently have week-long projects to further awareness of the horrors of Hitler's Germany. Chances are, you will at one point visit one of the concentration camps of Buchenwald or Auschwitz and schools go through great lenghts to get jewish orators who have witnessed Nazi Germany first hand. History programs on TV eat up that chapter as well and the Federal Agency for Civic Education offers a plethora of different magazines for free so one can educate oneself even further. Against this background, it seems unthinkable that anyone could embrace Nazi ideals, because it's virtually impossible to grow up in Germany and not have a rather thorough understanding of them. How do other Germans deal with these issues?German constitution gives anyone including the Nazis the right for public assembly, NPD-member ofttimes gather in large numbers to March for their misguided cause and try to recruit members. Obviously, the rest of Germany isn't oblivious to those assemblies and since the right-wing-extremists are vastly outnumbered, usually peaceful protest prevents them from marching. Personal opinionTo be perfectly clear, I don't suggest that in 10 years time we'll go about killing Jews and invading Poland again, I just want to express my anger and sadness that despite comprehensive educational matters and in times of peace of properity, there grows a new generation of antisemetic, antiislamic and antidemocratic young people who sympathise with the demonic Nazi regime. Points of discussion- German / Nazi related jokes - Speculation of sources (educational, economic, political etc.) - Right-wing extremists in your own country - etc. English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17514394German source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/rechtsextremismus-in-ostdeutschland-nimmt-zu-a-866712.html
I heavily doubt that 9% of east germans follow a "far right mindset". I'm from eastern germany (Thuringia to be precise), and, I don't feel like there's a big neo-nazi movement here. People may be a bit insecure towards the high rate of immigrants at the moment, but that's nothing unusual.
Also seriously, I'm sick of all these articles depicting Eastern Germany this way. It's becoming really boring because it seems like alll of germany just wants to make us look like uneducated idiots :< nobody ever writes about far rights in the western part of germany, because thats "not as cool" as picking on the poorer eastern states.
Wtf.
Apart from that, the stats are misleading because the anti-right movement probably never was as strong as it is now.
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On November 13 2012 00:38 coma wrote:I'd like to add some parts of the statistics, that OP left out, just to give a better picture. Most of the people sympathizing with these ideas have a low standard of education (no "Abitur", which is the degree you need to be accepted at universities). People older than 60 are much more likely to be in Agreement. Also, they generally live in areas where they have no contact to migrants. Alternative Source(German): Tagesschau.deThe actual news here is that the agreement with right-extremist positions has risen from 8.2% to 9% in the course of 2 years. According to my source, the percentage in Eastern Germany was actually 10.2% not 6.6% two years ago 2415 Germans and 95 Non-Germans were questioned. I really hope this trend doesn't continue.
That's a much better source than the ones in the OP. I like that it actually states which questions were posed. Even the OP misquotes his own source when he says "During the past two years, the number of far right-wings has been more than doubled, from 6.6 to more than 15%." It's actually over 6 years(it says since 2006), and then adds that it has shrunk in west germany (from 9.1 to 7.6), and that the vast majority still prefer democracy over other forms (94.9%, 95.5W 92.1E). It is an issue that the view is gaining traction in the east, but it's not a huge sensationalist number.
Also comparing nazis to neo-nazis is like comparing the black panther party to the new black panthers, they're not the same thing. Even if neo-nazis still suck.
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On November 13 2012 01:23 zatic wrote:
I think you are misrepresenting today's Germany. Germany today probably has less backing for Nazi ideology than ever before. Just look at how successful the NPD and the DVU (does anyone even still remember them?) were not even 10 years ago. Now they nothing but are a sorry shadow of their former prowess. Where did their voters go to? Certainly not to another extremist party, because there isn't one. Most of them have returned to either conservatives, local far right parties or Die Linke.
You will always have a very low number of people who will still continue to support Nazi ideas. But if anything that number goes continually down in Germany. The reason this is - once again - prominently featured in the media is of course the murders of the "Nazi terrorists" that surfaced last year. It's a sad effect, but essentially we are talking about a "Nazi uprising" because 3 people committed 10 murders over a period of 10 years.
Arrrr. Pirate Party.
Had to do this =)
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The sad part of germany ...
and the more alarming facts: there are already villages that are (more or less) controlled by nazi-like groups.
search for the village "Jamel" its located close to the city Wismar in Germany.
(german YT-report about the village: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bPJAo1nfGg)
Even if you dont understand german, some of the pictures should be alarming enough.
Esp. when they show the fireplace with the writing "happy holocaust" on it ...
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On November 13 2012 00:32 Xpace wrote:This is indeed scary, but hardly surprising. Every country has their share of these idiots. Show nested quote +If you grow up in Germany, you will be thoroughly educated about the Nazi Party.
The history of the Third Reich is mandatory part of your historical education and secondary schools frequently have week-long projects to further awareness of the horrors of Hitler's Germany. Chances are, you will at one point visit one of the concentration camps of Buchenwald or Auschwitz and schools go through great lenghts to get jewish orators who have witnessed Nazi Germany first hand. History programs on TV eat up that chapter as well and the Federal Agency for Civic Education offers a plethora of different magazines for free so one can educate oneself even further.
Amazing if true. I look at countries like Japan who are being hated on by their neighbors because they are not educating the general population about WW2 and the atrocities of the Empire of the Rising Sun, and would rather focus on how they are the only victims (Hiroshima/Nagasaki). That's equally as sickening as this. Germans are actually educated about the Nazis!
Well I think people of Japan are educated enough to know what kind of war crimes happened without needed to push to the edge. War is always dirty and WW2 was long war.
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OP is making me semi angry and to post the topic like he did, is nothing short than a sensationilistic (?) exagerration which everyone who was your mentioned "abitur" should be able to see.
On November 13 2012 00:12 kafkaesque wrote:A recent study by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, a foundation to promote democracy, has shown that an alarming number of Germans, to be precise: 9%, embrace far right political views an sympathize with the Nazi-Party or its (rather pathetic and ineffectual) reincarnation: NPD.
"9% embrace far right political views or with the NPD"
If you read statistics like this, you need to ask yourself HOW this was determined. I can pick one or 2 random points of the NPD that arent completly outragous, and surely i will find 9 % who agree.
Without seeing the actual set of questions which determined this statistics, it isnt worth jackshit ( in case they are somewhere here but i overlooked them i severly apologise ).
I am not in any case doubting the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, in fact i know they do good stuff, as i have been there myself, and even volunteered being a "coach" at school informing people about new right movements and parties, so i even worked in a project by them.
However saying 9 % sympathise with the NPD is downright bullshit, seriously, how are you making us look here with your topic man?
I dare you to go to the streets in west germany and show me that roughly every 10th person sympathises with the NPD, i dare you, how can you live in germany and believe that, i dont know, or im massively naive, but i dont think its the latter. As a german who despises NPD etc, cause its nothing less than braindeads, it offends me that other people might think 10 % of us thing this way, which we do not.
Dont believe Statistics unless you know exactly how they were constructed, its one of the first things you learn at uni for examply in Psychology. I dont mean to offend the op, im sorry, just a bit mad at the title which suggests more than 10 % in germany vote npd, i lold at that.
Far fetched from actual reality.
On November 13 2012 01:23 zatic wrote:
I think you are misrepresenting today's Germany. Germany today probably has less backing for Nazi ideology than ever before. Just look at how successful the NPD and the DVU (does anyone even still remember them?) were not even 10 years ago. Now they nothing but are a sorry shadow of their former prowess. Where did their voters go to? Certainly not to another extremist party, because there isn't one. Most of them have returned to either conservatives, local far right parties or Die Linke.
You will always have a very low number of people who will still continue to support Nazi ideas. But if anything that number goes continually down in Germany. The reason this is - once again - prominently featured in the media is of course the murders of the "Nazi terrorists" that surfaced last year. It's a sad effect, but essentially we are talking about a "Nazi uprising" because 3 people committed 10 murders over a period of 10 years.
good post
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I think this sort of thing comes from stability and peace time. The UK too see's its worrying rise in extremism and racist parties aswell as anti-europe parties (UKIP/BNP/EDL) but the popularity these parties gain is simply driven through people being fed up of not being heard by the major parties.
However once these fringe parties gain traction and some popularity they are soon squashed by the major parties either by them taking there insane policy ideas and making something usuable or by publically humilliating them and there supporters making people who support such parties feel stupid.
Living in a part of the UK that is worrying pro BNP and UKIP this is something that has happened in my area aswell as the UK as a whole and I'm sure Germany for the most part is like that too.
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I think this is mainly a cause of there not being a (big) anti-EU party.. So protest voters have to go somewhere... Whats left? NPD nutjobs.
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On November 13 2012 00:41 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 00:27 Gretchen wrote:
It's the economy, stupid.
Germany may look economically strong compared to the rest of Europe, maybe even the world, but we still have high unemployment rates in exactly the parts of Germany where the Neo-Nazis grow stronger. Economic hardships always breed extremist movements, look at Greece, Eastern Europe or even Russia. They FOUGHT against Nazis in WW2 and now they fly the swastika and march in the streets.
I live in Munich and pretty much never meet any Neo-Nazis, because Munich is one of the richest cities in Germany and Europe. We even have one of the highest percentages of foreign population of big german cities, but there aren't any problems, because there are also enough jobs. I never understood the part about the economy, since even if you're relatively poor in Germany, you'll still be absolutely prosperous. Being unemployed in Germany makes you wealthier than average wage in many other countries. As a student, I earn just a little less than a long-term unemployed person on Hartz 4 and I can live very comfortably. What kind of logic is there supposed to be? "Fuck, I can't afford the new iPhone, let's gas some gypsies!"
Afaik if you fall out of the employment system completely in germany there is almost nothing help-wise for you.
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It's a very scary thing. Movement based on hate and separation will always self-destruct though; their paradigm commands it. When Neo-Nazis or similar hate groups say "We hate Jews and people who look different than us" and etc, what they're really saying is "We solve problems with hate and violence".
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EPT
