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On October 13 2012 19:49 kukarachaa wrote:
How can people ( mostly Europeans ) blame gun control when they see all these clearly sensationalized stories. Gun control works for you great, it'll do next to nothing in U.S. Its the mentality and geography, U.S. is a very ethnically and culturally diverse country, and whether you like it or not that will always create tensions and violence. Geographically speaking how easy is it to smuggle guns to country like Denmark? Now think how easy it would be for criminals to get guns in the U.S. should they be banned. Our border with Mexico has plenty of tunnels already or if you dont like underground and prefer a more scenic route just take a boat from one of our Caribbean neighbors.
Ban the guns in U.S. and only criminals will have guns. Take a country like Denmark and move it next to a couple third world countries mix in some other cultures and ethnicities and see if gun control would still produce the same results.
Once again its the mentality and geography not the guns, that's why a country like Switzerland with no gun control has similar crime stats to other European countries, and a country like Russia with strict gun control laws has similar crime stats to U.S.
I would also like to point out that by having guns more readily available or rather having them be more of a common place in households would be a very obvious deterrent for criminals. If I was a criminal and knew for a fact what houses did and didn't have guns in them I would clearly could to rob the ones without unless I was specifically trying to obtain one for my use, and I would do so solely because I would be putting myself in less danger.
That doesn't even take into account someone who could be on drug and acting in a completely irrational manner.
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On October 12 2012 23:33 MiQ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 23:22 Warillions wrote:On October 12 2012 15:11 Cascade wrote:Even if it he would be 100% sure that it was a burglar, taking the decision to kill another person over having some stuff stolen, is completely beyond my understanding. Killing before even being sure who it is, is just sad.  Sorry but I do not value your life greater than household possessions. Break into my house and try to steal my shit and you will die If I have the power to do so. Come into my home and try to steal my son's or wife's shit. I will murder you and piss on the gunshot wounds. Actually just break into my home. you will be dead before you have a chance to see what I have to steal. Don't you understand this is exactly why this happened? The "shoot and ask later" mentality is beyond retarded. This whole story is just awful. I can't imagine how the father must feel like... I don't think I could live with that on my conscience.
You do realize homicide detectives don't have a lot of friends and by not many friends I mean, people would like him dead for putting a friend in jail or embarrassed. And being 40 years in the business, that would mean a lot of "non-friends".
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On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing.
A) It's late at night
B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story
C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid
D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself.
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On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself.
I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house.
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On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house.
Had the one other person there not been alseep and had it not been after 12am I could understand that.
But his dad was asleep and it was after 12am. Jay Leno doesn't ever air until 11:30pm. No ones going to announce themselves at that time of the day especially when they know no one is awake to hear it. By announcing it they would probably wake said person up and piss off them for being woken up lol.
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On October 13 2012 20:09 lost_artz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house. Had the one other person there not been alseep and had it not been after 12am I could understand that. But his dad was asleep and it was after 12am. Jay Leno doesn't ever air until 11:30pm. No ones going to announce themselves at that time of the day especially when they know no one is awake to hear it. Bye announcing it they would probably wake said person up and piss off them for being woken up lol.
In this example, it would be better yelled at than dead. :-/
Either way, I always call when I enter a home, any home, if my own.
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On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house.
This makes me realise i really don't know how lucky I am, the fact I can walk into my own house "unannounced" and not have to worry about being shot.
The fact you find it acceptable to drill this into children to prevent their death, shows the difference in cultures between other first world countries I guess.
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On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you?
According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death.
Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms".
Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10)
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On October 13 2012 20:11 shizzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house. This makes me realise i really don't know how lucky I am, the fact I can walk into my own house "unannounced" and not have to worry about being shot. The fact you find it acceptable to drill this into children to prevent their death, shows the difference in cultures between other first world countries I guess.
I'm from Singapore, we have no guns, lol.
But the practice of announcing your entry into a home is still there. Although, the purpose has since changed to one of respect, from its practical roots.
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On October 13 2012 20:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:11 shizzz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house. This makes me realise i really don't know how lucky I am, the fact I can walk into my own house "unannounced" and not have to worry about being shot. The fact you find it acceptable to drill this into children to prevent their death, shows the difference in cultures between other first world countries I guess. I'm from Singapore, we have no guns, lol. But the practice of announcing your entry into a home is still there. Although, the purpose has since changed to one of respect, from its practical roots.
I really should have quoted your previous post I guess, but you said your mum worked for an American organisation, then continued on with "they" so I was more referring to the US than Singapore.
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On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10)
These numbers add no context to your argument. Compared to what? Total gun ownership?
Using Gallup 2011 poll on gun ownershp and total USA population that works out to:
146 million Americans with one or more firearms of any size
Therefore the percentage of firearm related deaths compared to population of firearm owners in USA is:
9203 firearms related deaths ÷ 146,170,000 firearm owners x 100 = 0.00629%
Overall, I'd say America is a pretty safe country.
Edit: Typo
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On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10)
The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are doing is siting a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home.
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On October 13 2012 20:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:09 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house. Had the one other person there not been alseep and had it not been after 12am I could understand that. But his dad was asleep and it was after 12am. Jay Leno doesn't ever air until 11:30pm. No ones going to announce themselves at that time of the day especially when they know no one is awake to hear it. Bye announcing it they would probably wake said person up and piss off them for being woken up lol. In this example, it would be better yelled at than dead. :-/ Either way, I always call when I enter a home, any home, if my own.
.. If someone walks through a locked door without breaking it down, it's pretty likely they belong inside. I could understand your point if you had to smash a window to get inside, but he walked through a door. Sure, he could be the one criminal who is educated enough to pick a lock in short enough time to not be caught, but still so stupid he breaks into homes for his money, but logic dictates that when someone does not break into a 'secured' area, and they are in that area, they belong there.
Checking the person's identity (ie turning the god damned lights on) is called for. Killing the person is not.
But I suppose there is some merit to the idea of announcing yourself in a home where someone owns a gun. It's not nice to wake people up, but its not good to get killed either. It's bad on both sides of this one.
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On October 13 2012 20:31 lost_artz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are siting is a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home.
Exactly, the percentage of firearms related death compared to total population of gun owners is just that!
In fact, I'd say if your numbers became available, it's even a greater incentive for a civilian ownership of a gun.
If American "louts" (by European standard) have been standing as a Nation since declaring independence with their "crazy" gun ownership, even winning one world war, Korean, Vietnam, Iran, Soviet regimes while possessing such "dangerous" weapons. What about civilized Europe?
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On October 13 2012 20:36 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:09 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:01 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 19:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but the son's death is on his own head.
Seriously. What happened to "Mom, Dad, I'm home!"
Back when my mother worked for an American organisation. They always always always drill that into their children. To call out when they enter the house.
This tragedy would have been avoided with proper upbringing. A) It's late at night B) When we left his dad was asleep as stated in the story C) He's was 48 years old not a fucking kid D) Taking into account A-C he had no reason to announce himself. I'm trying to point out the life saving habit of announcing your presence when entering a house. Any house. Had the one other person there not been alseep and had it not been after 12am I could understand that. But his dad was asleep and it was after 12am. Jay Leno doesn't ever air until 11:30pm. No ones going to announce themselves at that time of the day especially when they know no one is awake to hear it. Bye announcing it they would probably wake said person up and piss off them for being woken up lol. In this example, it would be better yelled at than dead. :-/ Either way, I always call when I enter a home, any home, if my own. .. If someone walks through a locked door without breaking it down, it's pretty likely they belong inside. I could understand your point if you had to smash a window to get inside, but he walked through a door. Sure, he could be the one criminal who is educated enough to pick a lock in short enough time to not be caught, but still so stupid he breaks into homes for his money, but logic dictates that when someone does not break into a 'secured' area, and they are in that area, they belong there. Checking the person's identity (ie turning the god damned lights on) is called for. Killing the person is not. But I suppose there is some merit to the idea of announcing yourself in a home where someone owns a gun. It's not nice to wake people up, but its not good to get killed either. It's bad on both sides of this one.
When my country was developing, we actually had cases of burglars whose only method of break-in was to open the front door. That's it! If he was caught by the occupant, he'd pretend he got the wrong house.
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On October 13 2012 20:31 lost_artz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are doing is siting a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home.
The point is just that more people die due to accidents than fatal burglaries. Sadly I don;t know of any stats for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. I don't even know if those are available, and that really isn't what matters. The fact is that to the average american, they are more in danger (6x) from eating too much candy and getting diabetes than from assault by firearm.
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On October 13 2012 20:38 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:31 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are siting is a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home. Even winning one world war, Korean, Vietnam, Iran, Soviet regimes while possessing such "dangerous" weapons. What about civilized Europe?
Worst comparison I've seen in a while. America lost in Vietnam, never invaded Iran and the USSR collapsed rather than there being any large scale conflict. On top of this just because you use guns in war doesn't mean they're a good idea in the home.
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On October 13 2012 20:42 jobebob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:31 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are doing is siting a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home. The point is just that more people die due to accidents than fatal burglaries. Sadly I don;t know of any stats for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. I don't even know if those are available, and that really isn't what matters. The fact is that to the average american, they are more in danger (6x) from eating too much candy and getting diabetes than from assault by firearm.
That's the thing, USA and Switzerland is living testimony that the idea that civilians can't handle the responsibility of life and death over another human being is bunk. That it's better to depend on not being detected as you place your police call, wait for police patrol and subsequent break-in to save the caller compared to grabbing the gun and shooting the home invader in the chest (accuracy achievable with practice and high survival rate of chest wound).
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On October 13 2012 20:46 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:38 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 13 2012 20:31 lost_artz wrote:On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) The only problem I see with those statistics is that it doesn't account for how many burglaries didn't occur because firearms were present. All you are siting is a statistic of how many fatalities there were. I would also like to point out that an accidental discharge of firearms doesn't always equate to someone thinking they're going to be robbed/kidnapped/killed/raped. There are many more situations that fall under the category of accidental discharges - Hunting accidents i.e. mistaking another hunter for game - hence why bright orange 'camo' is so popular, kids getting their hands on guns that were not locked up and shooting themselves or a friend, etc. So yes you are more likely to die from an accidental discharge but it also takes into account a lot more situations than having break into your home. Even winning one world war, Korean, Vietnam, Iran, Soviet regimes while possessing such "dangerous" weapons. What about civilized Europe? Worst comparison I've seen in a while. America lost in Vietnam, never invaded Iran and the USSR collapsed rather than there being any large scale conflict. On top of this just because you use guns in war doesn't mean they're a good idea in the home.
The point I'm making is despite the claim that "America is dangerous", it's not been this way even after losing in Vietnam with all the upset army veterans, infiltration by USSR spies/operatives, Iran crisis. America still remains a world super power in spite of the presence of civilian ownership of firearms!
The facts do not lie! Self-policing with regards to home invasion/personal safety scenarios works!
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On October 13 2012 20:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:13 jobebob wrote:On October 13 2012 18:47 pharmer. wrote:On October 13 2012 18:20 PH wrote:
This kind of thing makes me lean towards disallowing gun ownership. Accidents like this are just ridiculous. Beyond that, though...using deadly force to stop a potential burglar no questions asked? That's not a right we should have. That's just dumb. How do you know they are just going to steal from you? According to the 2009 census there was a grand total of 110 fatal burglaries out of close to 1,000,000 total residence burglaries. Meaning that you have a 0.01% chance, (yes thats one tenth of a percent) chance of death. Now take into account that in 2009, 554 americans died of "Accidental discharge of firearms". Meaning you are 5 times more likely to die by shooting yourself or a loved one than in a house burglary. Looking at the data I just do not see any justification that owning a gun makes you safe at all. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdfhttp://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0321.pdfhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf (table 10) These numbers add no context to your argument. Compared to what? Total gun ownership? Using Gallup 2011 poll on gun ownershp and total USA population that works out to: 146 million Americans with one or more firearms of any sizeTherefore the percentage of firearm related deaths compared to population of firearm owners in USA is: 9203 firearms related deaths ÷ 146,170,000 firearm owners x 100 = 0.00629% Overall, I'd say America is a pretty safe country. Edit: Typo
There is actually close to 36,000 firearms related deaths according to the cdc, which is the data source of choice. Tho half of those are due to suicides interestingly enough.
Also I believe that most burglaries end up a success. With very rare instances of the two parties meeting. And you are right in that america is a safe country. Thats true. Thats why I believe the gun debate, (both sides) is a bullshit non-issue, which pales in comparison to, for example, the 600,000 people who die from heart diseases.
The media is always trying to sensationalize things, which in turn makes people freak out and not look at the big picture. And that my friend, is something we should all watch out for.
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EPT
