EPTVeganism: A Discussion - Page 33
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
I don't go out of my way to eat in any particular way. I eat for what I am doing. For example if I know I'm running a 10K, I'll eat pasta the night before. I try to avoid all extremes when it comes to my diet. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:11 r.Evo wrote: You're right. People who don't eat meat would love to eat meat but force them to not do it because of strictly moral and ethical reasons. Having to restrain myself from punching stupid people in the face out of strictly moral and ethical reasons brings me much more suffering than not eating meat. In fact, I'm actually pretty damn happy with the latter. I never even said I agreed with his statement, I was just clarifying his reasoning for BlueBird. It's really funny though how worked up you all get over the fact that not everyone shares your morals and values. The whole zealousy and fanaticism that goes along with Vegans really turns me off. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:22 AngryMag wrote: This thread sported a lot of top end intellectual performances. I went to the whole thread again to save them for other readers who didn't went through the whole thing, but still want to enjoy all the highlights. And here they are: PS: Some of these thoughts might be trolling, hard to tell if all the posters were actually serious. Here is my ethical argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism Indeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. I reject all forms of discrimation, including that against other species. This is why I am vegan. I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place HOW can you compare human brain and dog brain? Or any other animal brain, for that matter? Human brain weight around 1.5 kg, thats dozens, hundred times more than animal brains. Noone can say for sure how any animal realizes this world simply because humans are only ones who can think. There was a chicken who lived a year or two without a head. Look it up, i think there was an article about it in "Times" (somewhere in 1930-s). Show me how to eat a carrot without killing it. Being vegan just makes you better than most people. Hypothetically, if we advance as a species and begin to colonize other plantets, what would you say about the following situation: we happen upon another planet inhabited by sentient 'cave man' - like beings. we know they have consciousness, and we know they feel pain. we can see them torturing and killing one another by the millions. would you intervene? would you stop them from killing each other senselessly? I would say that it important that we consider the ethics of what everything does, not just ourselves You can substitute "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" with "I hate black people because they're everywhere and that's how I live and now leave me alone", exactly the same chain of thought. He has a right to look down on ignorant meat eaters just as i have a right to look down on ignorant racists. There is a right and a wrong answer here, and one person is looking for the truth and the other is closing their mind and glorifying ignorance. fox eats rabbit => fox poops into the soil => the living soil then absorbs the poop(which includes the rabbit) => fruit and vegetable plants absorb that exact same soil to grow => humans eat those same fruits and vegetables This process happens EVERYWHERE in nature. So even if you’re a vegetarian, you’re technically eating dead animals, albeit in a more indirect liquid form. But last time I checked, vegetarians were all about saving lives no matter what." some of them are really funny XD sadly half of them atleast were meant seriously even more sad is that the more eloquent posts are just ignored and get lost between biggots calling each other biggots and trolls calling everyone else stupid. | ||
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dmfg
United Kingdom591 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:08 kmillz wrote: So basically what you are saying, if a person eats food that comes from animals, that is only ok up until they learns it comes from animals and that eating things coming from animals is wrong, then it must stop eating all animal products until it learns that all non-animal products inadvertently cause animal deaths too, then either the person must not eat anything and die or eat whatever the fuck they want. No. If we say that veganism may reduce or increase animal suffering: since it's not possible for any vegan to know whether their own, personal eating habits are harming animals, it is never necessary for an "ethical vegan" to stop eating meat. It is only necessary (and possibly sufficient) for them to be satisfied that their actions will, on average, reduce animal suffering (if that is indeed their goal). Edit: reworded for clarity | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:03 SupLilSon wrote: I never even said I agreed with his statement, I was just clarifying his reasoning for BlueBird. It's really funny though how worked up you all get over the fact that not everyone shares your morals and values. The whole zealousy and fanaticism that goes along with Vegans really turns me off. Did you ever think about why people might react "zealous" or "fanatic" or "worked up" if you claim that their eating habits are on the same level as cutting themselves? OBVIOUSLY a statement like that when it comes to simply "not eating meat" gets a negative response equal to the statements bullshit-factor. | ||
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NeMaTo
United States50 Posts
1.Nutrition represents the combined activities of countless food substances. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. -Same concept as physiology of all organisms, makes sense. 2.Vitamin supplements are not a panacea for good health. -This is obviously true. Vitamins are just a fraction of compounds your body utilizes 3.There are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants. -If this book explicitedly says this, then I suggest you buy another nutrition book. No plant-based protein has a better ratio of essential amino acids than animal counterparts, thereby making animal protein more efficient (aka high quality). And have they no idea of B12 deficiency that affects 12 out of 13 vegetarians? The small amount of folate naturally occurring in plant based food does not get absorbed much. And what about iron...... don't even get me started on iron. How could anyone say that plants provide these nutrients "better" when it is universally recognized as otherwise? 4.Genes do not determine disease on their own. Genes function only by being activated, or expressed, and nutrition plays a critical role in determining which genes, good and bad, are expressed. -What about cytogenetic diseases? Teratogenic diseases? Are you saying hereditary conditions and mutagenic diseases can be cured by eating certain types of food which will "shut off" some genes? This is preposterous. Mutagens are remediated through the actions of antioxidants (which obviously come from food) but that has nothing to do with genes, it has to do with maintaining balance between oxidative and reductive reactions going on in your body. Genes do affect the individual's tendency to develop mutations or their rate of DNA repairs, but how could you say food can turn this function off? Unless you are completely starving yourself and depriving the body the essential building blocks (e.g. amino acids), many genes in your body are expressed all the time. There is no "shut down" button, not always. Bottom line, Food is a factor, genes are another factor, but you cannot integrate these two variables into one and assume that food is a control center for gene expression. This is only partially true, for genes that are regulated by compounds that are provided by food, rather than synthesized by your own body. 5.Nutrition can substantially control the adverse effects of noxious chemicals. -True. Antioxidants 6.The same nutrition that prevents disease in its early stages can also halt or reverse it in its later stages. -Watch out for the wording. "Can?" This statement is useless to me because I can also say that I "can" win the lottery jackpot. It does not imply it'll happen. Many diseases that affect cells in your body multiply too quickly, that there is no "reversing" the cancer in later stages. No matter how much tomatoes and broccolli you eat, it won't happen. 7.Nutrition that is truly beneficial for one chronic disease will support health across the board. -Idiotic, false statement. If you have gout, it's in your best interest to limit purine intakes. When you do that, you might feel better because uric acid formation is decreased. But did limiting purine intakes improve your general health? No, just your gout. It's true you'll generally "feel" better as a whole person because gout is gone, but that does not mean your other body functions have improved. Purines are important components of your DNA, so how the hell does limiting the supply of these nitrogen compounds supposed to improve your overall health, other than the one condition which is affected by dietary purine levels? 8.Good nutrition creates health in all areas of our existence. All parts are interconnected. =) | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On September 23 2012 08:00 r.Evo wrote: Did you ever think about why people might react "zealous" or "fanatic" or "worked up" if you claim that their eating habits are on the same level as cutting themselves? OBVIOUSLY a statement like that when it comes to simply "not eating meat" gets a negative response equal to the statements bullshit-factor. why dont you adress the problem at heart, why is drawing the line at boundary A better or worse than at boundary B (or C or D etc) and on what grounds can we justify making such a claim that A is better or worse than B and who decides wether A is better or worse than B and why? | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
And because i read it at least two times: please stop saying that its more efficient to eat plants directly than indirectly trough meat, because most of the stuff my meat eats, cant even be digested by humans. Its not like we feed them bananas, coconuts and strawberries, their diet mostly consists out of hay and grass, and (but thats the smaller part) forage beets, carrots and whole grain. Also, a cow produces alot of natural fertilizer, so my food is helping to grow your food. Eat like a rabbit, thats completely fine with me. But dont dare to judge me based on the fact that i eat meat. Edit: edited out some profanity against these bright lights that compare meatproduction with the holocaust. Please feel insulted by me. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On September 23 2012 08:52 m4inbrain wrote: The only thing speaking against meat for me is the water consumption. Roughly 100.000l needed for a kg of beef, thats quite alot. Other than that, i dont care. I focus more on helping humans (i helped building a school in akuapem hills, africa for example - not with money, but with my hands) than animals, thats more important to me. And because i read it at least two times: please stop saying that its more efficient to eat plants directly than indirectly trough meat, because most of the stuff my meat eats, cant even be digested by humans. Its not like we feed them bananas, coconuts and strawberries, their diet mostly consists out of hay and grass, and (but thats the smaller part) forage beets, carrots and whole grain. Also, a cow produces alot of natural fertilizer, so my food is helping to grow your food. Eat like a rabbit, thats completely fine with me. But dont dare to judge me based on the fact that i eat meat. And, just to get it out of my system, the people making a comparsion between meat in any way and the holocaust, are you really that idiotic, or is it just because of the anonymity of the internet? Im asking you that as a german btw, are you really that stupid? This is awesome. Someone obviously took an ecology class. It's all about the retarded wastage of water. And, even though it will be overlooked within 3 pages, as everything is on a forum... Vegan is no animal products. No butter or dairy or fats. Anything at all... even eggs. My wife pulled it off for 3 years, but now is just a vegetarian. She does allow dairy and egg. On top of ALL the things you listed, Factory Farmed meat is just trash. All the additives and antibiotics and steroids and the crappy food they are forced to eat... all the fat because they aren't allowed to move... its 30X worse for you than natrual meat would be. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 23 2012 08:55 CursOr wrote: This is awesome. Someone obviously took an ecology class. It's all about the retarded wastage of water. And, even though it will be overlooked within 3 pages, as everything is on a forum... Vegan is no animal products. No butter or dairy or fats. Anything at all... even eggs. My wife pulled it off for 3 years, but now is just a vegetarian. She does allow dairy and egg. On top of ALL the things you listed, Factory Farmed meat is just trash. All the additives and antibiotics and steroids and the crappy food they are forced to eat... all the fat because they aren't allowed to move... its 30X worse for you than natrual meat would be. Nah, i did not take an ecology class, thats actually common knowledge (at least i hope). About the other sentences, i dont even know where i listed things, and talked about quality of meat and stuff. And thanks for quoting something that i posted in a heat of the moment and edited out after a minute, ninja. -.-" | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On September 23 2012 08:52 m4inbrain wrote: The only thing speaking against meat for me is the water consumption. Roughly 100.000l needed for a kg of beef, thats quite alot. Other than that, i dont care. I focus more on helping humans (i helped building a school in akuapem hills, africa for example - not with money, but with my hands) than animals, thats more important to me. And because i read it at least two times: please stop saying that its more efficient to eat plants directly than indirectly trough meat, because most of the stuff my meat eats, cant even be digested by humans. Its not like we feed them bananas, coconuts and strawberries, their diet mostly consists out of hay and grass, and (but thats the smaller part) forage beets, carrots and whole grain. Also, a cow produces alot of natural fertilizer, so my food is helping to grow your food. Eat like a rabbit, thats completely fine with me. But dont dare to judge me based on the fact that i eat meat. Edit: edited out some profanity against these bright lights that compare meatproduction with the holocaust. Please feel insulted by me. Most of the stuff meat eats, they do eat tons of grains as well, but yes in general your correct, and the water is freaking awful. My arguments that it's more efficient to eat plants was not in response of wasting plants that would otherwise be used for human consumption.. but in the stupid comments about how plants have feelings, and if they did, it would be more "humane" or "less cruel" to eat plants directly then to have animals eat tons more. I focus on helping humans and animals  . | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 23 2012 09:05 BlueBird. wrote: Most of the stuff meat eats, they do eat tons of grains as well, but yes in general your correct, and the water is freaking awful. My arguments that it's more efficient to eat plants was not in response of wasting plants.. but in the stupid comments about how plants have feelings, and if they did, it would be more "humane" or "less cruel" to eat plants directly then to have animals eat tons more. I focus on helping humans and animals .I dont disagree fully, it may be more efficient. But it hurts my brain to see that people try to "deceive" (dont know a better word right now, its not meant that negative) in a discussion that is actually not too bad (and i had my fair share of arguments with vegans..). They may eat alot of plantstuff, but they also produce fertilizer by doing that. So its not just wasted, because you need that fertilizer. And well, i cant help everyone (or everything) - humans and my family, thats all i have time and energy for. And to be brutally honest, i dont know about these huge cattle-farm-thingies in the US, but over here, i actually can see my future meal walking around, and they dont look unhappy or fat or something. I pay a bit more for my meat, but at least i know, where it came from (local butcher). I may even agree on the fact that (okay, im a bit "spoiled" due to media) the "average" american may eat too much meat. For me, its two/sometimes three meals a week. I dont like burgerking/mcdonalds/subway etc, so i dont really eat there - not because of the meatquality or something, just because i dont like the taste. Also, at least in my family (since i can remember, and im 30 years old), meat always comes with vegetables. God i hated that cauliflower so bad in my youth (and i still hate it now). | ||
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FraCuS
United States1072 Posts
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 23 2012 09:20 FraCuS wrote: What's your opinion on a seafood and vegan diet? Pescatarian? I think its healthy. Im not a huge fan of fish (except salmon), so sadly thats not for me, but i actually could consider a diet based on fish as protein, if there is a fish that tastes good enough (for my taste). And, im sorry, i dont have any ethical problems with eating fish or meat, so i guess i cant give the answer you wanted. :/ | ||
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heroyi
United States1064 Posts
On September 23 2012 09:22 m4inbrain wrote: I think its healthy. Im not a huge fan of fish (except salmon), so sadly thats not for me, but i actually could consider a diet based on fish as protein, if there is a fish that tastes good enough (for my taste). grouper? snapper? none of those appeal? | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
I never had snapper, grouper (having kinda a language-barrier here, grouper is a "Zackenbarsch", i ate a Barsch before, but not a Zackenbarsch) is not for me. But snapper is 40-50€ per kg here, so thats too expensive for me on a "daily" basis. I actually decided to order some for next Friday, just to try it out (as a "treat" to myself) - but as i said, dont know the prices where you live, over here its a luxury-fish. Edit: or better: to me its a luxury-fish, not a "bread and butter" thing. | ||
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Gprime
Canada198 Posts
my food poops on your food <3 | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 23 2012 09:17 m4inbrain wrote: I dont disagree fully, it may be more efficient. But it hurts my brain to see that people try to "deceive" (dont know a better word right now, its not meant that negative) in a discussion that is actually not too bad (and i had my fair share of arguments with vegans..). They may eat alot of plantstuff, but they also produce fertilizer by doing that. So its not just wasted, because you need that fertilizer. And well, i cant help everyone (or everything) - humans and my family, thats all i have time and energy for. And to be brutally honest, i dont know about these huge cattle-farm-thingies in the US, but over here, i actually can see my future meal walking around, and they dont look unhappy or fat or something. I pay a bit more for my meat, but at least i know, where it came from (local butcher). I may even agree on the fact that (okay, im a bit "spoiled" due to media) the "average" american may eat too much meat. For me, its two/sometimes three meals a week. I dont like burgerking/mcdonalds/subway etc, so i dont really eat there - not because of the meatquality or something, just because i dont like the taste. Also, at least in my family (since i can remember, and im 30 years old), meat always comes with vegetables. God i hated that cauliflower so bad in my youth (and i still hate it now). Since I'm assuming from your earlier comments that you're German, you should be aware of the fact that IF the whole "I know where my meat is coming from" part is true, you're part of an incredibly small minority. Around 98% of the meat sold in Germany comes from factory farming (number from 2008). In France for example that number is at 82%. Good ol' German efficiency. | ||
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heroyi
United States1064 Posts
On September 23 2012 09:29 m4inbrain wrote: I never had snapper, grouper (having kinda a language-barrier here, grouper is a "Zackenbarsch", i ate a Barsch before, but not a Zackenbarsch) is not for me. But snapper is 40-50€ per kg here, so thats too expensive for me on a "daily" basis. I actually decided to order some for next Friday, just to try it out (as a "treat" to myself) - but as i said, dont know the prices where you live, over here its a luxury-fish. Edit: or better: to me its a luxury-fish, not a "bread and butter" thing. Whoops, completely missed your context xD. Again, I apologize. I live near the gulf so technically we can fish them quite easily. They are delicacies. Anyway my point is you don't like fish a whole lot but have you tried the different types available cheaply (they are quite delicious especially the white meat although the bones are annoying) when cooked properly (grilled with assorted veggies) etc... I do want to note on topic that fish diet is a wee bit dangerous as the mercury lvl is something you need to worry about. It is rare to find fish in clean water now days. pescatarian people need to watch their health much more and imo its not worth it. | ||
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