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On September 23 2012 09:35 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 09:17 m4inbrain wrote:On September 23 2012 09:05 BlueBird. wrote:On September 23 2012 08:52 m4inbrain wrote:
The only thing speaking against meat for me is the water consumption. Roughly 100.000l needed for a kg of beef, thats quite alot. Other than that, i dont care. I focus more on helping humans (i helped building a school in akuapem hills, africa for example - not with money, but with my hands) than animals, thats more important to me.
And because i read it at least two times: please stop saying that its more efficient to eat plants directly than indirectly trough meat, because most of the stuff my meat eats, cant even be digested by humans. Its not like we feed them bananas, coconuts and strawberries, their diet mostly consists out of hay and grass, and (but thats the smaller part) forage beets, carrots and whole grain. Also, a cow produces alot of natural fertilizer, so my food is helping to grow your food. Eat like a rabbit, thats completely fine with me. But dont dare to judge me based on the fact that i eat meat.
Edit: edited out some profanity against these bright lights that compare meatproduction with the holocaust. Please feel insulted by me. Most of the stuff meat eats, they do eat tons of grains as well, but yes in general your correct, and the water is freaking awful. My arguments that it's more efficient to eat plants was not in response of wasting plants.. but in the stupid comments about how plants have feelings, and if they did, it would be more "humane" or "less cruel" to eat plants directly then to have animals eat tons more. I focus on helping humans and animals  . I dont disagree fully, it may be more efficient. But it hurts my brain to see that people try to "deceive" (dont know a better word right now, its not meant that negative) in a discussion that is actually not too bad (and i had my fair share of arguments with vegans..). They may eat alot of plantstuff, but they also produce fertilizer by doing that. So its not just wasted, because you need that fertilizer. And well, i cant help everyone (or everything) - humans and my family, thats all i have time and energy for. And to be brutally honest, i dont know about these huge cattle-farm-thingies in the US, but over here, i actually can see my future meal walking around, and they dont look unhappy or fat or something. I pay a bit more for my meat, but at least i know, where it came from (local butcher). I may even agree on the fact that (okay, im a bit "spoiled" due to media) the "average" american may eat too much meat. For me, its two/sometimes three meals a week. I dont like burgerking/mcdonalds/subway etc, so i dont really eat there - not because of the meatquality or something, just because i dont like the taste. Also, at least in my family (since i can remember, and im 30 years old), meat always comes with vegetables. God i hated that cauliflower so bad in my youth (and i still hate it now). Since I'm assuming from your earlier comments that you're German, you should be aware of the fact that IF the whole "I know where my meat is coming from" part is true, you're part of an incredibly small minority. Around 98% of the meat sold in Germany comes from factory farming (number from 2008). In France for example that number is at 82%. Good ol' German efficiency.
Yep, german. What do you mean, "IF" it is true? Why would i lie, if you're happen to be from Niedersachsen as well, youre welcome to visit me. Also, i would like to see your source on these 98% (most factory farmed animal in germany is chicken, and thats at 78% overall, so i wonder where 98% comes from - i guess you googled "Massentierhaltung", which is obviously not the smartest way to get real numbers). Also, "factory farming" (or better, Intensivtierhaltung) in germany just means that you have farmers that have to buy animal food because they dont have the land to grow it. That does not automatically mean cruelty, please be objective.
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I might understand why people turn vegans in concern for the environment, but I don't understand the people who are vegans in concern of the animals.
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On September 23 2012 10:34 Toasterbaked wrote:
I might understand why people turn vegans in concern for the environment, but I don't understand the people who are vegans in concern of the animals.
you know there are 30 pages here of excellent arguments both for and against eating meat, perhaps you might try reading a little bit...
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I eat meat. If you asked me to ethically defend eating meat, I really couldn't. Obviously I don't enjoy harming living things, as I'm sure the majority of the people in this thread don't. Having it done out of sight and out of mind isnt an ethical solution, and I definitely think it's good for people to be well educated on what actually goes into meat production. I doubt anyone in this thread would be against more humane and compassionate regulations in the meat industry, it's something that meat eaters and vegans alike should push for.
It all comes down to health. It's possible to live a healthy life as a vegan or vegetarian, no doubt, but the same goes for a balanced diet. And in that context, its much easier to get complete and balanced nutrition when meat is included. I honestly think the morality argument is just inconsequential here. Agriculture destroys swaths of natural habitats, annihilates ecosystems, causes death to countless animals and is plausibly actually worse for our planet than meat production is. Regulation and progession needs to be pursued on both sides of the fence here.
All that said, synthetic meat is in the process of becoming a reality, and I do think we'd have an ethical obligation to switch to such a practice once it becomes feasible. Limiting the suffering of our fellow creatures is an admirable goal and we should definitely take all the steps we can to limit it, with synthetic meat being the end goal.
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It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into).
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On September 23 2012 14:25 erin[go]bragh wrote:
I eat meat. If you asked me to ethically defend eating meat, I really couldn't. Obviously I don't enjoy harming living things, as I'm sure the majority of the people in this thread don't. Having it done out of sight and out of mind isnt an ethical solution, and I definitely think it's good for people to be well educated on what actually goes into meat production. I doubt anyone in this thread would be against more humane and compassionate regulations in the meat industry, it's something that meat eaters and vegans alike should push for.
It all comes down to health. It's possible to live a healthy life as a vegan or vegetarian, no doubt, but the same goes for a balanced diet. And in that context, its much easier to get complete and balanced nutrition when meat is included. I honestly think the morality argument is just inconsequential here. Agriculture destroys swaths of natural habitats, annihilates ecosystems, causes death to countless animals and is plausibly actually worse for our planet than meat production is. Regulation and progession needs to be pursued on both sides of the fence here.
All that said, synthetic meat is in the process of becoming a reality, and I do think we'd have an ethical obligation to switch to such a practice once it becomes feasible. Limiting the suffering of our fellow creatures is an admirable goal and we should definitely take all the steps we can to limit it, with synthetic meat being the end goal.
A lot of meat eaters might like regulation in theory, sure it's more humane and doesn't that sound wonderful that the farm animal might actually see sunlight, or might be able to turn around one time during it's life(McDonalds won't be updating gestation crates until 2017 in the U.S, these aren't illegal in the U.S in 47 states, it's just getting bad press for all the big fast food places.. look them up.. they are BANNED in Sweden and the U.K. as well as California, Arizona and Florida).. but in reality the companies that produce the meat defend against regulations and the people eating meat defend against the regulations when it actually comes down to it, saying it would drive up prices crazily if even half of what animal rights activists lobbied for were passed, and it truly would.. . I am sure many of the meat eaters posting would be upset if all of a sudden they can only eat meat once in blue moon, or if as a poor student it was something you could no longer afford ever. You simply could not keep up with current demands if what I as an activist would demand for the animals(personally I wouldn't want anyone to eat an animal, but I feel that will come in time as our society learns and grows, can't force it on people, doesn't mean i can't protect those innocents being slaughtered by the millions though)
So regulation is a long slow hard grind... and sometimes even reversed when you get more people in office that are in the pockets of the companies. You see the same thing on the agricultural side with subsidies, regulations and crap. You get some regulations put down that do some good and then four years later someone else takes office who is in the pocket of the industry and repeals them in the name of smaller government and making money. Basically it's not just about whats best to make the animals happy otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I had the pleasure of meeting Wayne Pacelle, who is the President of The Humane Society, and he lobbies in D.C. for regulations, and I for one would not want to switch shoes with him. He tries very hard and only makes small hard steps when we need giant leaps.
And as far as America is concerned we are all about our profits, fines for not meeting the regulation might even be cheaper sometimes then doing something like changing killing methods, or increasing "pen sizes", if it nets you more profit overall, and your still allowed to move your product, then people do it... Some companies have been fined and cited multiple times before changing something.
I completely agree we need to regulate agriculture a lot, and we need to find sustainable ways to do things without harming the planet, that is a great idea, and I am all on board with it. I've been hearing a lot about synthetic meat, but I've heard a lot of meat eaters and vegans say they aren't willing to eat it for various reasons. Maybe it's just cause it's new and people are scared of change.
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On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into).
News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet.
Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet.
They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face.
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On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face.
He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures
Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane .
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On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face.
Simple question for you: what is the purpose of your post? What are you trying to achieve?
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On September 23 2012 15:18 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane .
I suppose it all depends on what you mean by humane. Humans have been eating meat since time immemorial so I think it happens to be literally humane to do so.
Differences, differences!
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On September 23 2012 15:20 Mstring wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. Simple question for you: what is the purpose of your post? What are you trying to achieve?
I'm just pointing out the obvious?
...
Was that a trick question?
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On September 23 2012 15:38 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:18 BlueBird. wrote:On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane . I suppose it all depends on what you mean by humane. Humans have been eating meat since time immemorial so I think it happens to be exceptionally humane to do so. Differences, differences!
^^ I don't think lumping a group of people that care about something important, as a bunch of crazies is obvious to us vegans, but thanks for your insight.
Humane means merciful, kind, kindly, kindhearted, tender, compassionate, gentle, sympathetic; benevolent, benignant, charitable according to the internets... I didn't mean it as a human act but yeah.
so basically I don't think killing animals to eat them very is kind or tender or compassionate. The history of humanity does not really matter to this discussion, we have done plenty of things in the past that we think are pretty awful or dumb and we no longer do. Slavery is a good example. I think someday us humans will look back at the way we treat animals today and think "What the fuck ?"
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On September 23 2012 15:42 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:38 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 15:18 BlueBird. wrote:On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane . I suppose it all depends on what you mean by humane. Humans have been eating meat since time immemorial so I think it happens to be exceptionally humane to do so. Differences, differences! ^^ I don't think lumping a group of people that care about something important, as a bunch of crazies is obvious to us vegans, but thanks for your insight. Humane means merciful, kind, kindly, kindhearted, tender, compassionate, gentle, sympathetic; benevolent, benignant, charitable according to the internets... I didn't mean it as a human act but yeah. so basically I don't think killing animals to eat them very is kind or tender or compassionate. The history of humanity does not really matter to this discussion, we have done plenty of things in the past that we think are pretty awful or dumb and we no longer do. Slavery is a good example. I think someday us humans will look back at the way we treat animals today and think "What the fuck ?"
My bad. I ninja edited you. I was really just making a play on words, and if I hadn't screwed up my post in the first place it would have been hilarious!
But personally I think the chances of humanity ever looking back on eating meat and thinking of it in the way that contemporary Westerners think of slavery is about nil. And that's a generous estimate. Not to mention the whole idea, implied by your post (and by so many other posts in this thread, i.e. that as history progresses humanity grows kinder, more moral, more enlightened, etc. etc.) is informed by an egocentric and, well, ahistorical interpretation of history. But that might be outside the scope of a discussion about why killing our furry friends is a mean thing to do.
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On September 23 2012 15:38 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:18 BlueBird. wrote:On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane . I suppose it all depends on what you mean by humane. Humans have been eating meat since time immemorial so I think it happens to be literally humane to do so. Differences, differences!
Not to mention that if every human were to suddenly go vegan tomorrow, we'd have to immediately slaughter 90% of the livestock population or risk the destruction of our ecosystem. What the hell is humane about that?
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so am i. yet this is quite irrelevant to the discussion unless you are implying somehow that because we were nutrient deficient for much of our history that we are somehow nutrient deficient today. we also used the profits from slave labor to advance our society, this does not mean that we must continue slavery today. things have changed my friend, science and society have advanced in recent years. and no, i do not think it is logical to assume that all vegans would be opposed to our ancestors eating meat, just as many are not opposed to eating meat today if it were to be necessary for their survival. much of the veg movement is a boycott to the industrial farm system, which promotes terribly cruel practices in the name of money. another major pillar would be the health benefits. while i have yet to find significant medical findings to support this form of diet over many other alternatives, there is a general consensus that educating yourself and making a sustainable change in your eating and activity patterns can vastly improve your health. honestly, i have read just as many vegans make an empty dogmatic post in this thread as i have of those opposed to them. i entirely reject the idea that vegans/vegetarians are necessarily aloof or pretentious, though i do feel they hold a moral high ground over those who don't want the way things are to change.
Not to mention that if every human were to suddenly go vegan tomorrow, we'd have to immediately slaughter 90% of the livestock population or risk the destruction of our ecosystem. What the hell is humane about that?
if we all suddenly ate meat as much as, say, the average american non-vegan/vegetarian, there would be an insane rise in the demand for meat. meat prices would skyrocket to the point where poor people would begin to suffer and die. many of these people would not have the knowledge/ability to provide themselves with proper nutrients. this would be equally inhumane, therefore your argument is entirely without merit. not a single vegan here believes it is the ultimate goal or duty to immediately slaughter every animal, in fact i would say it is quite the opposite, and any rational person could see that this change must happen over time. if i remember correctly, you are also quoting somebody who is essentially defensing eating meat because humans have eaten meat for much of history. this theory has been debunked many times throughout this thread, but essentially it comes down to that face that "nature" has no "intent", and therefore simply because we have done something does not mean it is valid to continue doing so. humans have raped and murdered for much of history, but this does not mean that these things are inherently human, and that we cannot work to stop them. please read at least a couple pages back, there are a lot of really well thought out posts here that are being repeatedly overlooked, and even if you still hold to your position there are a million better points to try to make than the one in your poorly thought out post.
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On September 23 2012 16:49 StayPhrosty wrote:so am i. yet this is quite irrelevant to the discussion unless you are implying somehow that because we were nutrient deficient for much of our history that we are somehow nutrient deficient today. we also used the profits from slave labor to advance our society, this does not mean that we must continue slavery today. things have changed my friend, science and society have advanced in recent years. and no, i do not think it is logical to assume that all vegans would be opposed to our ancestors eating meat, just as many are not opposed to eating meat today if it were to be necessary for their survival. much of the veg movement is a boycott to the industrial farm system, which promotes terribly cruel practices in the name of money. another major pillar would be the health benefits. while i have yet to find significant medical findings to support this form of diet over many other alternatives, there is a general consensus that educating yourself and making a sustainable change in your eating and activity patterns can vastly improve your health. honestly, i have read just as many vegans make an empty dogmatic post in this thread as i have of those opposed to them. i entirely reject the idea that vegans/vegetarians are necessarily aloof or pretentious, though i do feel they hold a moral high ground over those who don't want the way things are to change.
though i do feel they hold a moral high ground over those who don't want the way things are to change
Implication: I feel like we are morally superior to you meat eaters.
It is exactly this attitude that completely turns me off to pretty much anything. The feeling of being superior because of your opinion on morals.
Basically, I got no problem with your refusal to eat meat or animal products, but don't tell me you have superior morals because everyone has different opinions of what is right and what is wrong.
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On September 23 2012 15:53 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:38 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 15:18 BlueBird. wrote:On September 23 2012 15:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On September 23 2012 14:49 Mstring wrote:
It was only when I decided to drop meat and dairy out of my diet that I became aware of the mental fog I was under and I watched it lift away. I wasn't bogged down by pride and false belief, I just admitted that I didn't really know what was true and gave it an honest go-- nothing to lose. It was daunting at the beginning but I trusted that doing what I thought was right would pay off. When I eat primarily raw fruits and vegetables I feel more than motivated in life, I feel driven by a fire raging inside.
Changing what's on your fork has dire social consequences which may require a complete life rewire. In some people, this might be too much of a loss for their "self" to take leading to potentially violent opposition. I'm not interested in polemics. I'm just here to spread the word of this incredible lifestyle and to hear of the experiences of others.
It's not about restriction and limitation, it's about freedom from addictions that you're ignorant of (i.e. born into). News flash: if you eat like shit for the majority of your life and then make a concerted effort to clean up your diet, you will feel—shock, surprise!—worlds better. You can attribute this change, if you like, to the divine power of veganism, but in reality people can and do achieve better health, energy levels, mental wellbeing, and clarity through any number of dietary strategies. The important part is cutting out the truly shitty convenience foods (be they animal or fruit or vegetable) that make up so much of the average, on-the-go Westerner's diet. Assuming that veganism is the only way, truth, light, etc. is just magical thinking. And it's also (due to condescending, conversion-experience, I-once-was-blind-but-now-I-see narratives like the one you've just posted) the reason why so many vegans find themselves almost universally dismissed when they get on the subject of their diet. They're like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses who are consistently surprised and indignant at the doors being closed in their face. He could feel better not just because of what he eats, that could be a big part, but because the good that he is doing by not consuming sentient creatures Of course there are other ways to be healthy, I agree with you that making choices about what you will eat will make you feel a ton better.. however there none that are as humane . I suppose it all depends on what you mean by humane. Humans have been eating meat since time immemorial so I think it happens to be literally humane to do so. Differences, differences! Not to mention that if every human were to suddenly go vegan tomorrow, we'd have to immediately slaughter 90% of the livestock population or risk the destruction of our ecosystem. What the hell is humane about that?
I don't think the whole population is going to go vegan tomorrow.
I don't want everyone to be vegan, In my perfect world, everyone would be mostly vegan. Vegetarian with a very low amount of eggs/dairy, and no honey(unless someone gets a way to extract honey without killing bees). The reason being is cause you can humanely get milk/eggs, but not in the huge amounts currently desired by our populations, so there would be a much lower amount available for consumption.
To be honest putting some animals that were born purely for human profits out of their misery for the sake that there won't be more in their place in the future (see the conditions they live in) sounds humane too me, I don't pretend to have all the answers especially for a highly unlikely, very large situation such as that. There are people that literally have posted they eat MORE meat because of our efforts, Trust me, Sadly, It's going to be awhile and a slow process before we can get the majority on our side, I happen to live in area with a super high concentration of vegans/vegetarians(I shop at a local co-op thats completely vegetarian, and I have an all vegan grocery store, and tons of vegan food places from sit down to fast food), but when i go to Kentucky to visit my family, I am in a very different place, and I actually don't eat out cause I have had issues there.. (you can't order vegetable dishes at some places, for instance green beans without butter and bacon 0.o)
However, there seem to be more people aware of the situation, and more and more vegans/vegetarians, or people cutting down on meat. I believe there is a meatless mondays movement going around(It's crazy how much meat is in the average american's diet...), the first lady of the U.S.A. has implemented a vegan option in public schools, more and better regulations are being implemented over time. some countries are banning inhumane practices such as gestation crates.. I feel like the future looks less dim every day, and maybe someday, We can actually face the problem of everyone being vegetarian/vegan head on.
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I'm still waiting for valid vegan arguments on health. Can someone explain me how not eating an entire group of extremely nutritious foods somehow leads to a better diet?
It's like saying "Hey I'm going to improve my cardio by refusing to jog, cycle, swim, play soccer, basketball, boxing or hockey".
Here are the cold hard facts:
1. If you are on exclusively vegan food, you must take supplements (Vit B12, Calcium, Iron). You will also have a lot of trouble getting essential amino acids. Why are they called essential? Because humans can't make these 8 amino acids by themselves, contrary to real herbivors. So much for "we're not meant to eat meat".
2. There is no vegan food that even comes close to chicken/turkey in delivering the amount of protein (high bioavailability, many BCAAs), vitamins and minerals per calorie or per kg while still being low in carbs, fat and fibre.
3. Why are there almost no succesful vegan power sports athletes? See the two above.
4. Being vegan is a typical first-world phenomenon. Only rich people (by global standards) can afford to. What's more, in our primal days, having killed an animal meant the people were going to be having a tremendous amount of nutritrion/kg in a short time. Why were we hunters in the first place? Why did we lose the ability to make 8 amino acids by ourselves over the years? Very simple: because we feasted on animal products. Again: the "we're not meant to eat meat" argument is ridiculous.
5. A product like soy might seem innocent and organic, but is not without its downsides. Often times it's processed with hexane, a neurotoxin. Then there's the fact that soy contains enzyme inhibitors which (among others) reduce amino acid digestion (which a vegan diet is already depleted of). There's also isoflavons that reduce thyroid function. All of these are true for unfermented soy: soy milk, soy burgers, tofu, soil bean oil.
To conclude: yes, you can have a good vegan diet if you don't do explosive sports, but it's always going to be vastly inferior to a diet that includes meat. The fact that many meat-eaters have an unhealthy diet (and lifestyle) doesn't mean meat is going to be inherently inhealthy.
The going vegan for health argument is simply not true. The only valid reason to go vegan is of ethical nature, most of which seems to be a protest against bad animal treatment. And that's fair enough.
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On September 23 2012 05:04 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:00 BlueBird. wrote:On September 22 2012 23:36 Flyingdutchman wrote:On September 22 2012 20:03 BlueBird. wrote:On September 22 2012 19:46 SnipedSoul wrote:
Hypothetical: If plants were capable of feeling pain, would you force yourself to starve to death? I have answered that question already in this thread, and no I would not, I want to survive after all . You can scroll through the thread, and you'll find that eating plants directly "kills" less plants then indirectly eating plants by eating animals. But cows can be fed plantmatter that does not yield a lot of nutritional value for humans, or did I miss someone saying how delicious and healthy grass and hay is? I'm aware that cows can also be fed corn and such. Umm that's fine and yes that is possible(even though for factory farms it's not true) , but saving more food for humans is not the argument being made. If the argument is that plants feel pain, then you can't say that grass and hay feel less pain, Therefore, your still "killing" less overall plants by eating your plants directly then consuming the animal that ate them. So according to the argument, well plants "feel" pain too!(which is silly), then the least cruel diet that would let me remain alive would be one where I don't eat animals still. ' Also, just because cows can be fed grass/hay, factory farm animals are fed a pretty ridiculous amount of grains, and random other things. I can't believe how many people are sticking to this stupid plant argument on TL btw, It's pretty shocking how many people have brought it up. The self mutilation comments made me laugh, Not eating meat now = cutting one self? You're willingly imposing constraints and limitations on your life for strictly moral and ethical reasons. It's not really like cutting yourself, more like scourging.
You're saying it's better to live a life completely unfettered by any sort or moral or ethical considerations?
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EPT
