|
I have never had overweight issues so can't comment on that part.
But yeah, technically the human body is made (and always have been) to consume meat. More so than dairy products or even eggs for that matter. There was something about an intestine being wider(same as for predators) compared to a thinner one of the rest, which helps with digesting meat.
Sad that some people say that they "learned" otherwise.
On the moral factor: If the world stopped eating, let's say, overnight, even if we pretend that everyone would be fine with that and we didn't have starving issues, the way we have built our system right now, if we didn't simply "chop down" the animals, if we let them live till their natural deaths (which are far earlier than what they used to be, by the way), or if we let them out in the wild (a humane thing?), it'd end up in plague (no, really, plague) outbreaks everywhere (though nowadays we'd somehow manage that), wolves everywhere, those being the few obvious problems, with predictions of some worse. This is an argument for the vegans, not against, as we (on a global level) are practically forced to eat meat and such. With the meat nowadays rarely being healthy (and some types of meat never being healthy) it's a sad state to be in.
This isn't easily reversible. That said, there isn't that much of a moral issue in eating animals at all. There was a year or so where i felt bad for the animals that were killed for meat, although it has no direct connection with eating meat whatsoever. As animals, grown for slaughter, are slaughtered, then later, after many stages, you might be the consumer of that meat. The argument - If there weren't any consumers, the slaughtering wouldn't need to happen. As it turns out, we can't turn time back to the beginning of animal husbandry. (a shocker there) And a global "stop eating meat" would result in extreme amounts of food simply.. thrown away? What were the lives of those creatures for then?
I guess that what I'm trying to say is that the points made pro- and cons- are fairly vague, the movies that show production of meat often show the worst side of it possible, meant to "open the eyes" of people, when in reality it more often closes them. I do eat meat about once a week, mostly due to me "feeling like it", there are a lot of types of meat that i simply don't like the taste of. Dairy products shouldn't ever be considered morally bad to use (it can be drawn up by the few statements i made before), eggs.... I really don't have an opinion on. It's not like they were going to be the next generation anyway, uh...
The biggest problem i see with all the vegans and counter-vegans are that the reasons behind them are sometimes stupid, often simply false.
You don't help the world by not eating meat,
You aren't healthier by not eating meat (A research indicated that a vegan with good diet and a not-retarded person who eats meat have similar health results overall, with a few things different, most notably meat eaters might die 5 years younger, but having better health results on most parts of their body.)
You aren't doing the right thing by eating meat.
If you are a vegetarian/vegan because you, personally, dislike the taste of meat or you like vegetables better, or because you don't like the idea of eating meat, that's more than fine. If you are a vegan or a vegetarian due to some fairly false argument or because you've seen how cruel is the production, you are in the wrong.
Sadly, i can't bash meat eaters like that, since there really aren't many arguments made in general. If there were, i'm fairly certain they would be wrong as well.
Like someone besides me said here, we'd benefit from eating less meat. Both health-wise(as tons-of-meat diets are really bad for you) and world-wise(getting the mentioned beforehand system to be simply less important), instead of not eating meat, but it's not morality that would make us do that. It's logic. And we, humans, often have a huge lack thereof.
|
On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 23:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 21 2012 21:37 Passion wrote:On September 21 2012 21:31 Diks wrote:
I turned vegan when I learned that humans are made to eat vegetables. We don't have any of the meat-eater animals parts (jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flore, etc...) We eat meat because of culture, taste and because it's easy to prepare.
Watching how the animals were treated before finishing in my local store truly disgusted me and made me do the first step.
Pretty damn sure our jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flora (though I presume this adjusts to your diet) are adapted to eating meat. AND vegetables. But he turned a vegan! He is 100% sure man common didn't you hear? I'll repeat, he turned vegan!!!! That's gotta mean something right? I mean I started watching Suits so maybe I can practice law now! I think he needs to learn what an omnivore is. Now that being said if you wanna just eat greens, be my guest, but don't piss on logic because you turned vegan and had some stupid revelation that is absolutely non-factual. It's almost borderline religious "I use to be Atheist, then god came to me and now I know we're mean't to be Christian!". I tried to keep it civil :p But yea, for the last tens of thousands of years we've been including meat in our diet (as any species would if they can) and this has impacted our body. Like pretty much all omnivores, this doesn't mean we need to eat a certain amount of vegetables and meat, but rather that we can survive on either, as long as we ensure the necessary nutrient intake. In the end, the wolrd is ruled by greed and laziness, and meat is just the easiest way to get as many proteins as possible. Ps. Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas...
Actually we can't survive on just meat.
"Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas."
Not sure if this is a joke. If not I'm not really sure what to say.
|
I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas...
I envy you ;-)
|
On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:
I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas...
Don't really know how to respond to this other than you're very lucky or you're very oblivious.
|
On September 21 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Complaining about how natural milk or eggs are on the internet is kinda odd. By that logic if nature had meant for us to remotely communicate abstract ideas with each other we'd be telepathic. Nature has no intention and humans are animals following our primal desires to consume, we use milk because we want to, nothing unnatural about it.
Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler.
Lulz. That first paragraph so good :D
Back on topic, I was a vegetarian for 10 years (not vegan) and decided to stop when my first son was born so I wouldn't have problems not eating the same thing as him and so he doesn't complain because whatever we eat, we all eat together, and this way I allow him the ability to decide on his own diet (when old enough) while teaching him the importance of a healthy and balanced diet. As has already been stated, there is nothing as good for you as moderation, in all things.
OP may feel healthier being a vegan, but when switching back to eating meat I didn't put on any weight. I don't eat red meat every day, nor do I eat meat every meal, but I do eat it, and eggs, and occasionally I will have a glass of milk. The point is, don't eat 5 burgers 3 times a day, make your own meals, don't live off fast food or carbs, balance your diet, man. If you don't want to eat meat, great, but you still need to make sure that you are eating balanced because fruit is full of (natural) sugars, and your body isn't made to eat nothing but fruit, either. Eat meat or don't but eat balanced. Done.
|
I can understand the ethical concerns but if Homo Sapiens were intended (by creation or evolution) to be vegans, our biology and physiology would be extremely different.
|
On September 22 2012 00:07 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:On September 21 2012 23:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 21 2012 21:37 Passion wrote:On September 21 2012 21:31 Diks wrote:
I turned vegan when I learned that humans are made to eat vegetables. We don't have any of the meat-eater animals parts (jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flore, etc...) We eat meat because of culture, taste and because it's easy to prepare.
Watching how the animals were treated before finishing in my local store truly disgusted me and made me do the first step.
Pretty damn sure our jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flora (though I presume this adjusts to your diet) are adapted to eating meat. AND vegetables. But he turned a vegan! He is 100% sure man common didn't you hear? I'll repeat, he turned vegan!!!! That's gotta mean something right? I mean I started watching Suits so maybe I can practice law now! I think he needs to learn what an omnivore is. Now that being said if you wanna just eat greens, be my guest, but don't piss on logic because you turned vegan and had some stupid revelation that is absolutely non-factual. It's almost borderline religious "I use to be Atheist, then god came to me and now I know we're mean't to be Christian!". I tried to keep it civil :p But yea, for the last tens of thousands of years we've been including meat in our diet (as any species would if they can) and this has impacted our body. Like pretty much all omnivores, this doesn't mean we need to eat a certain amount of vegetables and meat, but rather that we can survive on either, as long as we ensure the necessary nutrient intake. In the end, the wolrd is ruled by greed and laziness, and meat is just the easiest way to get as many proteins as possible. Ps. Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas... Actually we can't survive on just meat. "Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas." Not sure if this is a joke. If not I'm not really sure what to say.
If you'd look carefully, I added a little "if" clause to whether or not we can survive on meat alone.
And no, sadly enough it's not a joke. Never had a Christian, Muslim, Jew or whatever try to convince me to join their religion. However, not a beer goes by or I end up talking to some lunatic who is religiously convinced that believing is wrong. My stance is everyone believes something, and to be honest, I don't care much. This doesn't discourage them. They keep on going. All night. Following me wherever I try to hide. Every single fucking day. I presume you have different experiences?
|
On September 21 2012 06:19 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:18 Otolia wrote:
Guys, I have this crazy idea ! What about moderation ? You know something that ISN'T extremism ...
With the same reasoning, we should stop eating corns because it takes too much water, stop growing tomatoes and potatoes in Europe because it's not originated from there and various other funny aberrations. Nope. Radicals only. People who look down on others 
Agreed. I think moderation is the key. I personally do not eat any meat (with the occasional exception of seafood), but do not look down on those that do. The problem really isn't meat, the problem is quantity and quality of the meat that Americans (and other 1st worlders) eat. The meat form an animal raised on a factory farm and the mat from and animal raised in the wild are very different. The farm animal contains much more fat and much less lean muscle mass.
As far as what is natural; humans have incisors and canine's for a reason. On the other hand, we also have molars for a reason. We are naturally omnivores.
|
On September 22 2012 00:07 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:On September 21 2012 23:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 21 2012 21:37 Passion wrote:On September 21 2012 21:31 Diks wrote:
I turned vegan when I learned that humans are made to eat vegetables. We don't have any of the meat-eater animals parts (jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flore, etc...) We eat meat because of culture, taste and because it's easy to prepare.
Watching how the animals were treated before finishing in my local store truly disgusted me and made me do the first step.
Pretty damn sure our jaws, teeth, stomach, bacterial flora (though I presume this adjusts to your diet) are adapted to eating meat. AND vegetables. But he turned a vegan! He is 100% sure man common didn't you hear? I'll repeat, he turned vegan!!!! That's gotta mean something right? I mean I started watching Suits so maybe I can practice law now! I think he needs to learn what an omnivore is. Now that being said if you wanna just eat greens, be my guest, but don't piss on logic because you turned vegan and had some stupid revelation that is absolutely non-factual. It's almost borderline religious "I use to be Atheist, then god came to me and now I know we're mean't to be Christian!". I tried to keep it civil :p But yea, for the last tens of thousands of years we've been including meat in our diet (as any species would if they can) and this has impacted our body. Like pretty much all omnivores, this doesn't mean we need to eat a certain amount of vegetables and meat, but rather that we can survive on either, as long as we ensure the necessary nutrient intake. In the end, the wolrd is ruled by greed and laziness, and meat is just the easiest way to get as many proteins as possible. Ps. Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas... Actually we can't survive on just meat. "Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas." Not sure if this is a joke. If not I'm not really sure what to say.
We can survive on an all meat diet and there have been cultures that have done it for extended periods of time although it is not common now.
|
Nice reading, i would like to try a vegan life for a while but i dont think i would stay with it.
About the ethical part:
i dont understand comments like "10 millions animals are being killed every day", if humans werent suppose to eat meat we should get poisoned a died after some days but no, we dont die, we absorve the energy and go on. Also why dont we also say " 10 millions plants are being killed every day"? cause plants dont suffer? they are alive as well so whats the difference? just cause we cant see them suffer it doestn change the fact that we are killing them.
also
On September 21 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Complaining about how natural milk or eggs are on the internet is kinda odd. By that logic if nature had meant for us to remotely communicate abstract ideas with each other we'd be telepathic. Nature has no intention and humans are animals following our primal desires to consume, we use milk because we want to, nothing unnatural about it.
Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler.
Evolution made us what we are, we eat almost everything and there is nothing wrong. We kill to live, is part of the life.
|
Bread and fish, biblical yo. Not bread and chlorophyl.
EDIT: As long as we just kill the multicelled organisms well be ok. Help save single celled organisms NOW!!!!
|
On September 21 2012 08:17 Kich wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I would not eat hot dogs in front of that person out of respect for their beliefs.
And yes, I'm aware, that was kind of what I was saying.
edit: And no, that's purely speculation on your end. As someone who experiences this regularly, there is no suppressed doubts about the ethical dimensions of meat consumption, there is purely apathy. People have enough shit going on in their lives and making a drastic life change like straight up switching your diet like that is out of their scope of shit to worry about--people are more concerned with actually surviving, not surviving in a way that is less harmful to animals.
People who aren't vegetarians or vegans don't concern themselves with those thoughts. I mean it's a shitstorm example but, I'm an athiest--the thought and notion of god doesn't ever cross my daily life until it's brought up to me, for all intents and purposes I completely forget the concept of religion is even a thing. It wouldn't even exist to me if it weren't other people--same with vegans. I don't talk about where my food comes from, it doesn't cross my mind, I just got hired at an awesome company; I just moved into my own apartment; I'm looking for a girlfriend; I'm officially "on my own" and I have so much other shit to worry about that quite frankly they'll just have to wait.
Yeah, I think there's much speculation on both sides here.
Another example: I know some people who are straight edge. They condemn the use of drugs for different reasons. I respect their positions, I think that a good amount of their arguments are perfectly valid, for example the fact that numbing unhappiness or discontent with drugs stands in the way of getting active and change something in your life/the world. Still I'll happily sip on my beer while they are watching without feeling a single sting of guilt or the need to find excuses.
It's my decision if I want to drug myself into oblivion, I'm harming only myself, I'm not directly affecting others by doing so.
So I can't really put myself in the shoes of people who feel umcomfortable eating their meet with me being around. If you think it's fine, it's fine. If there wasn't a reason to feel guilty about it you wouldn't have the urge to explain yourself to me. There have been people admitting that to me.. many just don't want to be reminded that there are moral/ethical concerns about killing animals (while enjoying their steak) and get defensive.
But I'm repeating myself, so.. sorry for that.
|
On September 21 2012 21:39 lem0ncake wrote:
every single vegetarian/vegan person i've ever met looked like they were dying of aids or something. it can't be healthy
Maybe they are the only people you ever met that weren't overweight? Healthy? So many English people are overweight, it is extremely near US levels. They just need to get more super-obese ones. As a child I lived with several English host families for football exchanges. The lack of vegetables in their normal average diet compared to the vegetable-deprived diet you see here on the continent isn't funny.
No wonders you think healthy people have aids.
On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:
Ps. Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas...
Guys, the reason this comment makes so little sense is because he must be a theist meat-eater. Completely blind and deluded on both accounts. Meat eaters don't tell people that eat meat to eat meat.
Just ask a random vegetarian or vegan how much shit they get from overweight unhealthy meat eaters.
|
The only problem with veganism is the subset of vegans who are complete assholes.
|
On September 22 2012 01:23 Hanakurena wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 21:39 lem0ncake wrote:
every single vegetarian/vegan person i've ever met looked like they were dying of aids or something. it can't be healthy Maybe they are the only people you ever met that weren't overweight? Healthy? So many English people are overweight, it is extremely near US levels. They just need to get more super-obese ones. As a child I lived with several English host families for football exchanges. The lack of vegetables in their normal average diet compared to the vegetable-deprived diet you see here on the continent isn't funny. No wonders you think healthy people have aids. Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 00:04 Passion wrote:
Ps. Vegans reminds me more of atheists than religious people though! I've never met a religious person who tried to convince me of their ideas... Guys, the reason this comment makes so little sense is because he must be a theist meat-eater. Completely blind and deluded on both accounts. Meat eaters don't tell people that eat meat to eat meat. Just ask a random vegetarian or vegan how much shit they get from overweight unhealthy meat eaters.
How did you find out?
|
On September 22 2012 01:24 DeepElemBlues wrote:
The only problem with veganism is the subset of vegans who are complete assholes.
Yeah, they're the worst. We should turn them into soylent green 
|
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice.
|
On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables. For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!. You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need. I don't even want to know how much food it would contain. Show nested quote +You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight. That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc.
BIll Pearl says hi.
I used to be a competitive powerlifter and I did some stupid shit and hurt my back. I had to cut training volume way back. I found that my old-style protein-with-one-veggie diet was forcing me to "think" like a bodybuilder, so I switched to a _more_ plant-based diet without giving up meat.
I now eat an organic grass-fed hippie whatever the fuck piece of meat at most once or twice a week. I still lean on dairy once in a while (cottage cheese, sour cream) and a couple eggs at breakfast here and there. It's been a lot easier for me because my protein requirements aren't as high as they used to be. If I had to try to match my old nutrient profile with this kind of diet, I don't know how I would do it.
I do feel a lot better now. But honestly, I have moved from clean diet type a) to clean diet type b) several times before, and I _always_ feel better. I assume this is because you start picking up nutrients in different ratios your body doesn't normally get, and now a potential deficiency is being addressed. Boom, you feel great.
I'd be curious to see what would happen to a competitive figure _or_ strength athlete who eschewed the standard 1.0-1.5lb protein/bodyweight guideline and tried to eat a plant-based diet with an emphasis on seeds and legumes for protein. I know John Berardi tried something similar, but I never looked at the results of his self-study.
As an engineer, I do think there's something wrong with our food chain from an efficiency perspective. Is veganism the answer? I dunno. I do know, though, that's it's far more viable for everyone to try to grow some veggies and other plants on their balconies/porches than it is for everyone to try to raise a fucking cow. Maybe this vat-grown meat idea from the biotech industry will work out, but that's about as appealing to me as all the bullshit protein "supplements" I kicked to the curb a few years ago.
Good job bringing up this topic, OP. It's a snarly one. Snake oil everywhere, and limited information on your inputs. I think this is why it's occasionally easier for people to resolve to a "moral" argument instead of a scientific one -- because the "scientific" debates always devolve into senseless study-quoting. I mean, if I guy like Tim Ferriss can tour the world and write a bestselling health book that has a sample size of n=1, you know people are looking for some sort of clarity
|
On September 22 2012 01:34 Monsen wrote:
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice.
So people and animals are different?
|
Would never be a vegan ever. Jesus I'd rather die. The thought of never eating meat again is horrifying
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
