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On September 22 2012 01:37 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables. For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!. You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need. I don't even want to know how much food it would contain. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight. That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc. BIll Pearl says hi. I used to be a competitive powerlifter and I did some stupid shit and hurt my back. I had to cut training volume way back. I found that my old-style protein-with-one-veggie diet was forcing me to "think" like a bodybuilder, so I switched to a _more_ plant-based diet without giving up meat. I now eat an organic grass-fed hippie whatever the fuck piece of meat at most once or twice a week. I still lean on dairy once in a while (cottage cheese, sour cream) and a couple eggs at breakfast here and there. It's been a lot easier for me because my protein requirements aren't as high as they used to be. If I had to try to match my old nutrient profile with this kind of diet, I don't know how I would do it. I do feel a lot better now. But honestly, I have moved from clean diet type a) to clean diet type b) several times before, and I _always_ feel better. I assume this is because you start picking up nutrients in different ratios your body doesn't normally get, and now a potential deficiency is being addressed. Boom, you feel great. I'd be curious to see what would happen to a competitive figure _or_ strength athlete who eschewed the standard 1.0-1.5lb protein/bodyweight guideline and tried to eat a plant-based diet with an emphasis on seeds and legumes for protein. I know John Berardi tried something similar, but I never looked at the results of his self-study. As an engineer, I do think there's something wrong with our food chain from an efficiency perspective. Is veganism the answer? I dunno. I do know, though, that's it's far more viable for everyone to try to grow some veggies and other plants on their balconies/porches than it is for everyone to try to raise a fucking cow. Maybe this vat-grown meat idea from the biotech industry will work out, but that's about as appealing to me as all the bullshit protein "supplements" I kicked to the curb a few years ago. Good job bringing up this topic, OP. It's a snarly one. Snake oil everywhere, and limited information on your inputs. I think this is why it's occasionally easier for people to resolve to a "moral" argument instead of a scientific one -- because the "scientific" debates always devolve into senseless study-quoting. I mean, if I guy like Tim Ferriss can tour the world and write a bestselling health book that has a sample size of n=1, you know people are looking for some sort of clarity 
I am immediately incredibly suspicious of your entire story, in that you've carelessly conflated the diet and lifestyle of a powerlifter with a bodybuilder, when in reality the two require very different dietary approaches. So which was it?
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On September 22 2012 01:39 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:34 Monsen wrote:
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice. So people and animals are different?
For the sake of this discussion I'd like to assume that, yeah.
I also love the "humans are not intended..." argument. I guess that's from the guys whose ancestors rode dinosaurs.
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On September 22 2012 01:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:37 mikedebo wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables. For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!. You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need. I don't even want to know how much food it would contain. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight. That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc. BIll Pearl says hi. I used to be a competitive powerlifter and I did some stupid shit and hurt my back. I had to cut training volume way back. I found that my old-style protein-with-one-veggie diet was forcing me to "think" like a bodybuilder, so I switched to a _more_ plant-based diet without giving up meat. I now eat an organic grass-fed hippie whatever the fuck piece of meat at most once or twice a week. I still lean on dairy once in a while (cottage cheese, sour cream) and a couple eggs at breakfast here and there. It's been a lot easier for me because my protein requirements aren't as high as they used to be. If I had to try to match my old nutrient profile with this kind of diet, I don't know how I would do it. I do feel a lot better now. But honestly, I have moved from clean diet type a) to clean diet type b) several times before, and I _always_ feel better. I assume this is because you start picking up nutrients in different ratios your body doesn't normally get, and now a potential deficiency is being addressed. Boom, you feel great. I'd be curious to see what would happen to a competitive figure _or_ strength athlete who eschewed the standard 1.0-1.5lb protein/bodyweight guideline and tried to eat a plant-based diet with an emphasis on seeds and legumes for protein. I know John Berardi tried something similar, but I never looked at the results of his self-study. As an engineer, I do think there's something wrong with our food chain from an efficiency perspective. Is veganism the answer? I dunno. I do know, though, that's it's far more viable for everyone to try to grow some veggies and other plants on their balconies/porches than it is for everyone to try to raise a fucking cow. Maybe this vat-grown meat idea from the biotech industry will work out, but that's about as appealing to me as all the bullshit protein "supplements" I kicked to the curb a few years ago. Good job bringing up this topic, OP. It's a snarly one. Snake oil everywhere, and limited information on your inputs. I think this is why it's occasionally easier for people to resolve to a "moral" argument instead of a scientific one -- because the "scientific" debates always devolve into senseless study-quoting. I mean, if I guy like Tim Ferriss can tour the world and write a bestselling health book that has a sample size of n=1, you know people are looking for some sort of clarity I am immediately incredibly suspicious of your entire story, in that you've carelessly conflated the diet and lifestyle of a powerlifter with a bodybuilder, when in reality the two require very different dietary approaches. So which was it?
Sorry, good point -- should have specified. After I herniated L2-L3 I tried to switch to training regimen that emphasized force distribution that didn't directly involve the lower back. i.e. universal chest press machines where the force vector goes through your upper body only. I associate that sort of training with "bodybuilding" -- I couldn't squat or deadlift. The extreme arc needed for competitive shirt benching was irritating my spine too.
I always associate that sort of training with bodybuilding. I kept training that way and eating "like a bodybuilder" to feel like I still had some ability to move iron, but it was hurting me in the long run. I'm looking into alternate disciplines now
Edit: I disagree that the two disciplines require incredibly different approaches. If you're trying to be SHW vs a figure model, yes. If you're trying to stay in a lower weight class (e.g. 75kg), they're don't have to be that different.
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On September 22 2012 01:47 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:43 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2012 01:37 mikedebo wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables. For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!. You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need. I don't even want to know how much food it would contain. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight. That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc. BIll Pearl says hi. I used to be a competitive powerlifter and I did some stupid shit and hurt my back. I had to cut training volume way back. I found that my old-style protein-with-one-veggie diet was forcing me to "think" like a bodybuilder, so I switched to a _more_ plant-based diet without giving up meat. I now eat an organic grass-fed hippie whatever the fuck piece of meat at most once or twice a week. I still lean on dairy once in a while (cottage cheese, sour cream) and a couple eggs at breakfast here and there. It's been a lot easier for me because my protein requirements aren't as high as they used to be. If I had to try to match my old nutrient profile with this kind of diet, I don't know how I would do it. I do feel a lot better now. But honestly, I have moved from clean diet type a) to clean diet type b) several times before, and I _always_ feel better. I assume this is because you start picking up nutrients in different ratios your body doesn't normally get, and now a potential deficiency is being addressed. Boom, you feel great. I'd be curious to see what would happen to a competitive figure _or_ strength athlete who eschewed the standard 1.0-1.5lb protein/bodyweight guideline and tried to eat a plant-based diet with an emphasis on seeds and legumes for protein. I know John Berardi tried something similar, but I never looked at the results of his self-study. As an engineer, I do think there's something wrong with our food chain from an efficiency perspective. Is veganism the answer? I dunno. I do know, though, that's it's far more viable for everyone to try to grow some veggies and other plants on their balconies/porches than it is for everyone to try to raise a fucking cow. Maybe this vat-grown meat idea from the biotech industry will work out, but that's about as appealing to me as all the bullshit protein "supplements" I kicked to the curb a few years ago. Good job bringing up this topic, OP. It's a snarly one. Snake oil everywhere, and limited information on your inputs. I think this is why it's occasionally easier for people to resolve to a "moral" argument instead of a scientific one -- because the "scientific" debates always devolve into senseless study-quoting. I mean, if I guy like Tim Ferriss can tour the world and write a bestselling health book that has a sample size of n=1, you know people are looking for some sort of clarity I am immediately incredibly suspicious of your entire story, in that you've carelessly conflated the diet and lifestyle of a powerlifter with a bodybuilder, when in reality the two require very different dietary approaches. So which was it? Sorry, good point -- should have specified. After I herniated L2-L3 I tried to switch to training regimen that emphasized force distribution that didn't directly involve the lower back. i.e. universal chest press machines where the force vector goes through your upper body only. I associate that sort of training with "bodybuilding" -- I couldn't squat or deadlift. The extreme arc needed for competitive shirt benching was irritating my spine too. I always associate that sort of training with bodybuilding. I kept training that way and eating "like a bodybuilder" to feel like I still had some ability to move iron, but it was hurting me in the long run. I'm looking into alternate disciplines now Edit: I disagree that the two disciplines require incredibly different approaches. If you're trying to be SHW vs a figure model, yes. If you're trying to stay in a lower weight class (e.g. 75kg), they're don't have to be that different.
Well the biggest differences are water manipulation and lipid consumption, as powerlifters who put up "good" numbers for their weight class almost always have a good bit of fat and water left to cushion the joints, whereas BB'ers of any weight look to shed as much of both as possible. A good powerlifting coach will always advise a lifter to look up a weight class instead of down, as the chance of injury when shedding water and fat to hit a weight goal is much higher. In any case, I know that feel when it comes to back pain, good luck with continued health.
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On September 22 2012 01:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:47 mikedebo wrote:On September 22 2012 01:43 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2012 01:37 mikedebo wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables. For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!. You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need. I don't even want to know how much food it would contain. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight. That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc. BIll Pearl says hi. I used to be a competitive powerlifter and I did some stupid shit and hurt my back. I had to cut training volume way back. I found that my old-style protein-with-one-veggie diet was forcing me to "think" like a bodybuilder, so I switched to a _more_ plant-based diet without giving up meat. I now eat an organic grass-fed hippie whatever the fuck piece of meat at most once or twice a week. I still lean on dairy once in a while (cottage cheese, sour cream) and a couple eggs at breakfast here and there. It's been a lot easier for me because my protein requirements aren't as high as they used to be. If I had to try to match my old nutrient profile with this kind of diet, I don't know how I would do it. I do feel a lot better now. But honestly, I have moved from clean diet type a) to clean diet type b) several times before, and I _always_ feel better. I assume this is because you start picking up nutrients in different ratios your body doesn't normally get, and now a potential deficiency is being addressed. Boom, you feel great. I'd be curious to see what would happen to a competitive figure _or_ strength athlete who eschewed the standard 1.0-1.5lb protein/bodyweight guideline and tried to eat a plant-based diet with an emphasis on seeds and legumes for protein. I know John Berardi tried something similar, but I never looked at the results of his self-study. As an engineer, I do think there's something wrong with our food chain from an efficiency perspective. Is veganism the answer? I dunno. I do know, though, that's it's far more viable for everyone to try to grow some veggies and other plants on their balconies/porches than it is for everyone to try to raise a fucking cow. Maybe this vat-grown meat idea from the biotech industry will work out, but that's about as appealing to me as all the bullshit protein "supplements" I kicked to the curb a few years ago. Good job bringing up this topic, OP. It's a snarly one. Snake oil everywhere, and limited information on your inputs. I think this is why it's occasionally easier for people to resolve to a "moral" argument instead of a scientific one -- because the "scientific" debates always devolve into senseless study-quoting. I mean, if I guy like Tim Ferriss can tour the world and write a bestselling health book that has a sample size of n=1, you know people are looking for some sort of clarity I am immediately incredibly suspicious of your entire story, in that you've carelessly conflated the diet and lifestyle of a powerlifter with a bodybuilder, when in reality the two require very different dietary approaches. So which was it? Sorry, good point -- should have specified. After I herniated L2-L3 I tried to switch to training regimen that emphasized force distribution that didn't directly involve the lower back. i.e. universal chest press machines where the force vector goes through your upper body only. I associate that sort of training with "bodybuilding" -- I couldn't squat or deadlift. The extreme arc needed for competitive shirt benching was irritating my spine too. I always associate that sort of training with bodybuilding. I kept training that way and eating "like a bodybuilder" to feel like I still had some ability to move iron, but it was hurting me in the long run. I'm looking into alternate disciplines now Edit: I disagree that the two disciplines require incredibly different approaches. If you're trying to be SHW vs a figure model, yes. If you're trying to stay in a lower weight class (e.g. 75kg), they're don't have to be that different. Well the biggest differences are water manipulation and lipid consumption, as powerlifters who put up "good" numbers for their weight class almost always have a good bit of fat and water left to cushion the joints, whereas BB'ers of any weight look to shed as much of both as possible. A good powerlifting coach will always advise a lifter to look up a weight class instead of down, as the chance of injury when shedding water and fat to hit a weight goal is much higher.
Um... I would suggest that a good powerlifting coach would try to predict who is going to show up to the meet in what weight class, and then try to figure it out from there
In my first meet, the records in the 148s were wayyyyy higher than the 165s. I picked up a "national record" in squat and deadlift by basically showing up with my gear -- the records had been set by someone who lifted raw.
Small leagues tend to be favored on the extreme ends, IMO -- you don't meet many middle-of-the-road people in powerlifting! haha
For 'real' competitors -- again, I'd say it depends. I see some powerlifters who are just really stoked at the idea of cutting weight. Most of them, though (American anyhow) just want to eat pizza and bacon and put heavy shit on their back. I approve
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On September 22 2012 01:44 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:39 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 22 2012 01:34 Monsen wrote:
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice. So people and animals are different? For the sake of this discussion I'd like to assume that, yeah. I also love the "humans are not intended..." argument. I guess that's from the guys whose ancestors rode dinosaurs.
Good point. Those are bad arguments.
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On September 22 2012 01:34 Monsen wrote:
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice.
Actually, the lion will choose to kill the weakest, youngest, most vulnerable animal it can find. Once it's gotten it's kill, the animal doesn't instantly die. It has to endure being eaten alive for some time.
Anyhow, plants are living things, too. Vegans, vegitarians, and eveyrone else who eats are all murderers. You can't eat a head of lettuce without killing it. Carrots? Let's not kill the carrot and eat it...
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I´m by no means near being a vegetarian or vegan but... I´ve worked closely with the meat industry and I must say it´s just horrible. Even if there are laws and shit which says that "the animals has been living a free life and grown up healthy" it´s just bull.
Animals today are being used just as machines in a long term production and when the machine is busted, just replace it. I feel bad about being a human being and seeing how we just manage to screw everything in history.
Becoming a vegetarian is my fist step in the right direction. Next one being a vegan.
Although I do not find this first post all that convincing. For me it´s more about moral thoughts.
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On September 22 2012 02:05 DigiGnar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:34 Monsen wrote:
I would just like to refute the "lions eat zebras too" argument without taking a stance on the issue itself-
The difference between the lion killing animals for food and humans doing the same is that the lion doesn't make a choice. Actually, the lion will choose to kill the weakest, youngest, most vulnerable animal it can find. Once it's gotten it's kill, the animal doesn't instantly die. It has to endure being eaten alive for some time. Anyhow, plants are living things, too. Vegans, vegitarians, and eveyrone else who eats are all murderers. You can't eat a head of lettuce without killing it. Carrots? Let's not kill the carrot and eat it...
I remember one dude who once quoted that mass-farming of an acre of some grain (rice maybe? soy?) kills over 10000 frogs. The shit you learn! Sometimes, some of it is even true lol
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On September 22 2012 02:07 Teodice wrote:
I´m by no means near being a vegetarian or vegan but... I´ve worked closely with the meat industry and I must say it´s just horrible. Even if there are laws and shit which says that "the animals has been living a free life and grown up healthy" it´s just bull.
Animals today are being used just as machines in a long term production and when the machine is busted, just replace it. I feel bad about being a human being and seeing how we just manage to screw everything in history.
Becoming a vegetarian is my fist step in the right direction. Next one being a vegan.
Although I do not find this first post all that convincing. For me it´s more about moral thoughts.
Show me how to eat a carrot without killing it.
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On September 22 2012 00:44 Topin wrote:Nice reading, i would like to try a vegan life for a while but i dont think i would stay with it. About the ethical part: i dont understand comments like "10 millions animals are being killed every day", if humans werent suppose to eat meat we should get poisoned a died after some days but no, we dont die, we absorve the energy and go on. Also why dont we also say " 10 millions plants are being killed every day"? cause plants dont suffer? they are alive as well so whats the difference? just cause we cant see them suffer it doestn change the fact that we are killing them. also Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Complaining about how natural milk or eggs are on the internet is kinda odd. By that logic if nature had meant for us to remotely communicate abstract ideas with each other we'd be telepathic. Nature has no intention and humans are animals following our primal desires to consume, we use milk because we want to, nothing unnatural about it.
Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler. Evolution made us what we are, we eat almost everything and there is nothing wrong. We kill to live, is part of the life.
You don't understand the ethical part. That's like the only one that makes sense.
If someone doesn't feel comfortable eating animals then that's a good enough reason for everyone. They don't want to.
Apparently they feel comfortable eating other living organisms. You seem unable to grasp that people are different and have different values.
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On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote:On September 21 2012 06:25 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:22 wei2coolman wrote:
I personally couldn't go vegetarian, much less vegan. I love my meats, and animal products far too much.
Mad respect to those who can do it without the "holier than art thou'" attitude. As someone who has been vegetarian since birth, I can say I've noticed a very distinct inverse correlation between how long someone has been a vegetarian and how much of a dick they are about it. The recent converts are the absolute worst about that kind of stuff. Gotta justify the change, after all. I prefer the other poster's thought - moderation. I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society.
The only reason people think its wrong to kill animals is because we are self aware and project ourselves onto other animals . Other animals kill the shit out of eachother and eat eachother all the time , killing for food isn't immoral though I argue the way they are treated before death is another matter.
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On September 22 2012 02:18 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 00:44 Topin wrote:Nice reading, i would like to try a vegan life for a while but i dont think i would stay with it. About the ethical part: i dont understand comments like "10 millions animals are being killed every day", if humans werent suppose to eat meat we should get poisoned a died after some days but no, we dont die, we absorve the energy and go on. Also why dont we also say " 10 millions plants are being killed every day"? cause plants dont suffer? they are alive as well so whats the difference? just cause we cant see them suffer it doestn change the fact that we are killing them. also On September 21 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Complaining about how natural milk or eggs are on the internet is kinda odd. By that logic if nature had meant for us to remotely communicate abstract ideas with each other we'd be telepathic. Nature has no intention and humans are animals following our primal desires to consume, we use milk because we want to, nothing unnatural about it.
Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler. Evolution made us what we are, we eat almost everything and there is nothing wrong. We kill to live, is part of the life. You don't understand the ethical part. That's like the only one that makes sense. If someone doesn't feel comfortable eating animals then that's a good enough reason for everyone. They don't want to. Apparently they feel comfortable eating other living organisms. You seem unable to grasp that people are different and have different values.
I think what you just wrote makes perfect sense. The problem is when vegans take their own ethical standards and tell everyone why their ethical standard is the 'correct' one.
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I just hate all the weird arguments being thrown around.
Nature intended us to eat meat? Guess what, it also did not intend us to eat meat, otherwise all vegans would be dead.
Evolution made it so we kill to live and have to eat everything? Evolution also brought pedophiles, racists and serial killers. And 4chan.
Those are all so incredibly flat arguments which are nothing more than a glorified "I don't care what you say I don't want to think about my food" or, from the other side, "I don't know how to argue that's why I'm throwing random shit at you".
Maybe "Humans are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer myself." -> "Animals are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer." ---> "Making humans/animals suffer is a bad thing." is just a too universal and empathetic point of view for most people. Humanity as a whole just isn't there yet, considering we're not able to treat each others as equals on an emotional level in the first place.
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On September 22 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote:
Evolution made it so we kill to live and have to eat everything? Evolution also brought pedophiles, racists and serial killers. And 4chan.
LOL!
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote:
I just hate all the weird arguments being thrown around.
Nature intended us to eat meat? Guess what, it also did not intend us to eat meat, otherwise all vegans would be dead.
Evolution made it so we kill to live and have to eat everything? Evolution also brought pedophiles, racists and serial killers. And 4chan.
Those are all so incredibly flat arguments which are nothing more than a glorified "I don't care what you say I don't want to think about my food" or, from the other side, "I don't know how to argue that's why I'm throwing random shit at you".
Maybe "Humans are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer myself." -> "Animals are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer." ---> "Making humans/animals suffer is a bad thing." is just a too universal and empathetic point of view for most people. Humanity as a whole just isn't there yet, considering we're not able to treat each others as equals on an emotional level in the first place.
although the arguments you make are wrong, they're fun enough to commend you.
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At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see many "supplementalians" by 2100.
Vegetables have life and growing them have environmental effects too. Also, supplements could give you perfect nutritional composition for your body. Then, why not? Most of the reasons vegans/vegetarians give for doing so today would be used by "supplementalism" as well. Or, just put entire humanity on a drip by 2200 or something.
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On September 22 2012 02:34 Ayoeme wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote:
I just hate all the weird arguments being thrown around.
Nature intended us to eat meat? Guess what, it also did not intend us to eat meat, otherwise all vegans would be dead.
Evolution made it so we kill to live and have to eat everything? Evolution also brought pedophiles, racists and serial killers. And 4chan.
Those are all so incredibly flat arguments which are nothing more than a glorified "I don't care what you say I don't want to think about my food" or, from the other side, "I don't know how to argue that's why I'm throwing random shit at you".
Maybe "Humans are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer myself." -> "Animals are able to suffer, I hate how it feels to suffer." ---> "Making humans/animals suffer is a bad thing." is just a too universal and empathetic point of view for most people. Humanity as a whole just isn't there yet, considering we're not able to treat each others as equals on an emotional level in the first place. although the arguments you make are wrong, they're fun enough to commend you.
So the arguments which I called out to be horribly wrong are wrong in your opinion. Thanks for agreeing! -_-
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On September 22 2012 02:36 Orek wrote:
At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see many "supplementalians" by 2100.
Vegetables have life and growing them have environmental effects too. Also, supplements could give you perfect nutritional composition for your body. Then, why not? Most of the reasons vegans/vegetarians give for doing so today would be used by "supplementalism" as well. Or, just put entire humanity on a drip by 2200 or something.
According to Ray Kurzweil we'll all be bits of information in space by then
I guess that's technically what we are now, but you know what I mean
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I was a vegan for 2 years but then stopped because it got so friggin' boring. To stay vegan you really need a hard conviction about living vegan and about animal rights.
edit: also discussing this topic doesnt make sense at all. meat eaters will feel offended, vegans act as if they are something better, so the meat eaters will start to unite and make vegans look like fools, so they can feel better.
if anyone wants to become a vegan, he simply does it. For himself and not for anyone else, or trying to make himself a better person than others.
The attitude of many vegans that they entitle themselves to be a better being than others is one of the biggest reasons why vegans aren't liked in the society.
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EPT
