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On September 18 2012 17:55 Pokju wrote:
Although it is true that in terms of education, the Japanese could do much better to inform and create discussion about the war crimes that they committed during WWII among their own citizens, but does that justify Japan handing over the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands over to China, when this matter could be settled in International court?
Because Japan will do everything it can to avoid the International Court:
While the International Court of Justice in The Hague deals with territorial and other disputes between countries, Japan is not considering filing a complaint with the UN body, according to sources.
"If the government approaches the World Court [to resolve the issue], it would give the impression that Japan acknowledges the existence of a territorial dispute over the islands. This is China's intention," a government source said.
A dispute can only be brought before the World Court if the countries involved in the dispute agree to settle it there. Even if China files a complaint with the World Court, Japan would not respond to such a move, according to the sources.
http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?id=33153
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Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish.
If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice...
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Probably for the best. The dispute is probably Ishihara's fault, who is a notorious idiot (wonder why he's still in his position), but China is completely out of line in the rioting. Their behaviour is barbarous, childish, and worse (or best of all), self-destructive.
Without the presence of China, I think Japan and Taiwan (who are the only two real claimants IMO) could possibly be able to find a amiable resolution, and perhaps try to share the resources in a new treaty again. Unfortunately, the presence of China makes that impossible.
You can bet every last buck you have that even if Japan and Taiwan reach a compromise, China will stick her foot through the door to cause problems. Even if Japan GIVES Taiwan the islands, that would start a new, bigger problem rather than solve it.
Meanwhile, the man (and party) who burned all our chinese literature, caused a societal collapse, directly or indirectly killed 40+ million Chinese people, destroyed ancient traditions, quashed freedom of speech, massacred peaceful students, etc... goes on being glorified. Ironic isn't it?
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On September 18 2012 17:26 shadymmj wrote:Number of times Japan has apologised for WW2 related stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan(please understand yasukuni jinjya has MORE than just war criminals interred, although truth be told it was not a very bright guy who decided to put them in the same place) Number of times CCP has apologised for Mao's killing of 40 million Chinese: ???????????????????????
Thread isn't about the integrity of the PRC government in general, but the specific problem at hand. And the problem with apologizing for atrocities committed in Mao's specific case was that the general populous were ALL participating in it except the extreme minority who escaped overseas, everybody participated in the cultural evolution, everybody participated in collectivist resource pooling and assignments which aggravated the famines. The only apology which would be sensible would be for government officials who gave direct orders to apologize and compensate those who were prosecuted for not participating in these activities (which again is in the extreme minority), and the majority of this demographic are either dead, have apologized for their personal actions, or not politically relevant and as such receive no attention.
Governments rarely issue public apologies for past crimes committed against its own people because it wants to distance itself from what constituted the direct perpetrators and planners of said crimes and move on to sustain its own power, it's very different from apologizing for crimes committed to other bodies or minority groups. Essentially what you are asking is that the Chinese people apologize to itself, trust me that's already been well established, and such a societal statement has already been heard through the past two decade.
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On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote:
Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish.
If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
You forget something. This is still ongoing. The denials are ongoing and events that we can affect. Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo who is denying such events and driving a rift between the people is in office right now. The dispute over the islands is happening, right now. The protests are happening, right now. These are present problems to fix, the historical context is necessary simply to understand it and hold no moral value in its analysis. It's not the fact that we talk or don't talk about these past events that give it moral significance, it's the choice to deny them or acknowledge them, and how we choose to act upon them in the present which gives it moral significance.
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Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise?
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On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
post your fucking source. a quick google search from me revealed that in 2011 japan is the 105th most charitable nation in the world, after asian countries/regions hong kong (11), south korea (57), mongolia, (59) and taiwan (67).
so no, it is NOT japan, the selfish, self pitying delusional jerks.
source:
+ Show Spoiler +https://www.cafonline.org/pdf/World_Giving_Index_2011_191211.pdf
1. the chinese people breaking stuff are a small population of people looking to intentionally cause trouble, and no other chinese is agreeing with their actions.
2. the chinese hate the japanese because of their misdeeds in the past, and if you tell us to move on well fuck you. the "i murder your relatives" analogy is appropriate here since many chinese have lost families to them and even now there are survivor victims of the japan abuse. you don't just lose hate for a murderer and the murderers descendents often get the backlash as well
3. the diaoyu/senkaku islands are a big deal because of resources, no surprise. but china will never let go of it.
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On September 18 2012 18:11 Caihead wrote:Thread isn't about the integrity of the PRC government in general, but the specific problem at hand. And the problem with apologizing for atrocities committed in Mao's specific case was that the general populous were ALL participating in it except the extreme minority who escaped overseas, everybody participated in the cultural evolution, everybody participated in collectivist resource pooling and assignments which aggravated the famines.
Yeah, "participated"...or?
Hmm, tough choice, that one.
In a way, I agree, neither Japan or China (or even Taiwan) are saints. But the protests have shown the barbarous side of China in today's modern context, where we try to work things out in a peaceful manner. It just reflects very poorly on China. Taken in itself, I agree that a diplomatic resolution should be worked towards by all parties involved.
But people are saying the protests are due to history, so fine, I'll bite. People keep wanting to dig up the past from 70 years ago. Look at China's track record first. The irony is that they are using Mao banners as a symbol of Chinese "activism", when he is the man responsible for the greatest genocide the Chinese people have ever experienced, and has never once apologised.
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On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote:
Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish.
If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice...
let's not forget that apologies can be monetary as well. Germany paid out billions to the Jewish families that suffered in Holocaust. Germany has paid out BILLIONS(by one estimate, 61 billion as of 2000) to Israel and the Jewish families of the holocaust. Japan? Zero. They won't even admit to the war crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
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On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote:
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice...
how dare you ;-)))
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On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise?
It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies.
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On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies.
no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay.
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damn i wish there was a delete button :/
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On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around.
Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY
U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947
Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).
Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951
Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet
MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to.
Requests From Korea July 19, 1951
1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo."
Rusk Documents August 10, 1951
As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea.
Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951
Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.
MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks?
Sources:
Draft Treaty of Peace With Japan
Index:Rusk note of 1951
Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^.
Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose.
Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough.
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Some people on team liquid are refreshingly intelligent! I guess we just have to wait until the politicians make the hard decisions on these islands.
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On September 18 2012 18:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:11 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 17:26 shadymmj wrote:Number of times Japan has apologised for WW2 related stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan(please understand yasukuni jinjya has MORE than just war criminals interred, although truth be told it was not a very bright guy who decided to put them in the same place) Number of times CCP has apologised for Mao's killing of 40 million Chinese: ??????????????????????? Thread isn't about the integrity of the PRC government in general, but the specific problem at hand. And the problem with apologizing for atrocities committed in Mao's specific case was that the general populous were ALL participating in it except the extreme minority who escaped overseas, everybody participated in the cultural evolution, everybody participated in collectivist resource pooling and assignments which aggravated the famines. Yeah, "participated"...or? Hmm, tough choice, that one. In a way, I agree, neither Japan or China (or even Taiwan) are saints. But the protests have shown the barbarous side of China in today's modern context, where we try to work things out in a peaceful manner. It just reflects very poorly on China. Taken in itself, I agree that a diplomatic resolution should be worked towards by all parties involved. But people are saying the protests are due to history, so fine, I'll bite. People keep wanting to dig up the past from 70 years ago. Look at China's track record first. The irony is that they are using Mao banners as a symbol of Chinese "activism", when he is the man responsible for the greatest genocide the Chinese people have ever experienced, and has never once apologised.
The people who are most upset about the integrity of the Chinese people are the Chinese people, makes sense since they are the ones most directly affected by their own actions. There is great civil unrest between different sectors of the populous over the actions of other sectors right now. People who use the banner of Mao today are in the great minority, they don't hang his portrait in the vast majority of government buildings any more, his name is rarely ever mentioned in the media aside from historical analysis, and communist party members are at a all time low % representation in the population (82.6 million out of 1.3 billion which is <6.3%) http://news.cntv.cn/china/20120701/100349.shtml.
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On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay.
Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.
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On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Denying that a crime committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.
How so.
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On September 18 2012 18:38 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Denying that a crime committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. How so.
How so? The implications in this case is that a) You committed said crime. b) You got away with said crime and deny it which is lying. c) you refuse to face consequences of said crime which is evasion of justice and criminal verdicts. d) slander and lying if you provide false information to the contrary. I could go on.
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On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.
Frankly, that is what the majority of chinese people feel. Ask anybody who was born and lived in China for a prolonged period of time. Hell, why do you think people are rioting and demonstrating like this? It's b/c they want any excuse to shit on Japan. Nobody actually gives a crap about japan taking the island, they just all have a common hatred of japan. Whether they pay in money or in another fashion, doesn't really matter, they just wanna hurt japan(and monetary is always the best way to hurt someone/something). there is a strong hatred for japan among most chinese.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that's right or anything. That's just the way it is. Personally I'm chinese, and I got no issues w/ Japan or the japanese. And I find this whole situation quite hilarious.
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EPT
