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On September 18 2012 19:13 shadymmj wrote:
If you really want to know, Ishihara is not well liked by many Japanese people either, except for ultra right wings and for some strange reason, parts of Tokyo. Tbh my Japanese friends think he's an old geezer who should just fuck off.
We know, but the fact that he is influential and a major part of Japan's politics is bound to incite anger seeing as he is in a democratic nation. Like I already said this either indicates to an outsider that Japan's democratic process is hugely flawed, or that he does actually represent the interest of the people of Tokyo.
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On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots.
I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over.
This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred nor will it be the last. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over.
Not that Japan hasn't done terrible things, but devolving into a riot and violence is not acceptable no matter what your cause is, especially when the true victims of the protests are the Chinese people themselves.
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On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over.
In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree.
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5930 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:13 shadymmj wrote:
If you really want to know, Ishihara is not well liked by many Japanese people either, except for ultra right wings and for some strange reason, parts of Tokyo. Tbh my Japanese friends think he's an old geezer who should just fuck off.
He hasn't run Tokyo into the ground. So its not difficult why his electorate would keep him in power, who are more concerned about their immediate and local wellbeing.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:
[quote]
no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree.
The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots.
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On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Those are de facto war reparations, which Japan gave with the intent of paying war reparations, which if Japan had called war reparations Mao wouldn't accept. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues
First off, I'd take anything about china coming from the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs with a grain of salt.It's gonna be as biased as anything coming from the CCP. The specific passage regarding war reparations is as follows, and does not mention any actual reparation, just that China would refuse to demand war reparations in the future.
"5. The Government of the People's Republic of China declares that in the interest of the friendship between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples, it renounces its demand for war reparation from Japan."
Regards to: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.html
Second, those "low interest bonds" are not reparation payments, read carefully at the source materials, and you'll see they're just investments from japan after-the-fact for construction projects in China. ODA's are in no way shape or form a kind of reparation payment. Reparation payments GO TO THE VICTIMS, NOT the GOVERNMENT. These payments actually began AFTER the meeting in question in 1972, and had no bearing with the treaty you mentioned previously. They're also INVESTMENTS designed for one purpose, to integrate the japanese and chinese economies. This is nothing but political and economic interdependence, the same of which the US has also provided China. It is designed to reduce hostilities and make war between the two nations an impossibility(which it has become). Calling this a war apology is very much BS, as japan has as much to gain from spawning a new trading partner(with 1 billion consumers, more then any other society in the world) as china did.
regards to: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.html
Lastly, maybe you should learn that wikipedia can be very biased. I still see no reparations.
Edit: man i should've definitely done this in word first :/
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On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots.
I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with.
You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up.
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On September 18 2012 19:31 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with. You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up.
The wave of propaganda you mention is LITERALLY from the Japanese government.
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On September 18 2012 19:31 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with. You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up.
This "wave of propaganda" you are referring to would not even qualify as sensationalist news reporting in the privatized western media system. What is opinion is labeled as opinion, and public statements were dry run of the mill statements you would hear from any head of state or political department. Again I invite you to go to the state run media site
http://news.cntv.cn/special/diaoyudao/shouye/index.shtml
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On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues
To be fair, Japan messed up the means of compensation for PRC compared to that for Korea. Japan should have insisted on paying war reparation in 1972. ODA was rather unclear means of compensation and this allowed Chinese to , if you will, take advantage of the ambiguity later on.
On the contrary, between South Korea and Japan,
Agreement Between Japan and the Republic of Korea Concerning the Settlement of Problems in Regard to Property and Claims and Economic Cooperation was signed in 1965 and Article II of it specifically says:
1 The High Contracting Parties confirm that the problems concerning property, rights, and interests of the two High Contracting Parties and their peoples (including juridical persons) and the claims between the High Contracting Parties and between their peoples, including those stipulated in Article IV(a) of the Peace Treaty with Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on September 8, 1951, have been settled completely and finally.
This is what was needed for China in 1972 as well so that no ambiguity existed for compensation if done. Japanese government should have forseen the implication of not paying outright.
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In this case a lack of action on the gov. part is an admission of being complicit in the riots. any other country would have cracked down immediately. they seem to be alright with letting the hatred simmer in irrational manners.
At the end of the day, it's the chinese who are smashing their own cars. Panasonic had to close, yes, and so many chinese workers are out of a job. Sometimes things that aren't even Japanese get smashed, including Samsung, and there is widespread looting all around.
It's pretty funny actually, the americans must be laughing their asses off.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:25 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Those are de facto war reparations, which Japan gave with the intent of paying war reparations, which if Japan had called war reparations Mao wouldn't accept. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues First off, I'd take anything about china coming from the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs with a grain of salt.It's gonna be as biased as anything coming from the CCP. The specific passage regarding war reparations is as follows, and does not mention any actual reparation, just that China would refuse to demand war reparations in the future. "5. The Government of the People's Republic of China declares that in the interest of the friendship between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples, it renounces its demand for war reparation from Japan." Regards to: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.htmlSecond, those "low interest bonds" are not reparation payments, read carefully at the source materials, and you'll see they're just investments from japan after-the-fact for construction projects in China. ODA's are in no way shape or form a kind of reparation payment. Reparation payments GO TO THE VICTIMS, NOT the GOVERNMENT. These payments actually began AFTER the meeting in question in 1972, and had no bearing with the treaty you mentioned previously. They're also INVESTMENTS designed for one purpose, to integrate the japanese and chinese economies. This is nothing but political and economic interdependence, the same of which the US has also provided China. It is designed to reduce hostilities and make war between the two nations an impossibility(which it has become). Calling this a war apology is very much BS, as japan has as much to gain from spawning a new trading partner(with 1 billion consumers, more then any other society in the world) as china did. regards to: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.htmlLastly, maybe you should learn that wikipedia can be very biased. I still see no reparations. Edit: man i should've definitely done this in word first :/
Regarding your first point, it's a joint communique meaning it's signed by both sides. Since you show suspicion of the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I can link you to another host:
http://www.ibiblio.org/chinesehistory/contents/03pol/c02sc01
It's also well-known that Mao for whatever reasons renounced war reparations. I remember my mom (who grew up in China) telling me this story too and blaming Mao for not accepting reparations. I don't want to look-up the ODA stuff. Maybe I"ll do it tomorrow.
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On September 18 2012 19:25 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote:
Who is worse?
The revisionist or the apathetic majority?
The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan.
OR
The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise? It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Those are de facto war reparations, which Japan gave with the intent of paying war reparations, which if Japan had called war reparations Mao wouldn't accept. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues First off, I'd take anything about china coming from the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs with a grain of salt.It's gonna be as biased as anything coming from the CCP Regards to: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.htmlSecond, those "low interest bonds" are not reparation payments, read carefully at the source materials, and you'll see they're just investments from japan after-the-fact for construction projects in China. ODA's are in no way shape or form a kind of reparation payment. Reparation payments GO TO THE VICTIMS, NOT the GOVERNMENT. These payments actually began AFTER the meeting in question in 1972, and had no bearing with the treaty you mentioned previously. They're also INVESTMENTS designed for one purpose, to integrate the japanese and chinese economies. This is nothing but political and economic interdependence, the same of which the US has also provided China. It is designed to reduce hostilities and make war between the two nations an impossibility(which it has become). Calling this a war apology is very much BS, as japan has as much to gain from spawning a new trading partner(with 1 billion consumers, more then any other society in the world) as china did. regards to: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.htmlLastly, maybe you should learn that wikipedia can be very biased. I still see no reparations.
Youre right. They began AFTER because china WOULDNT ACCEPT it before that point. They had no political relations what so ever before 72. If anything blame the communist party for not accepting it in the first place, and when accepting it taking the money for themselves.
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On September 18 2012 19:37 shadymmj wrote:
In this case a lack of action on the gov. part is an admission of being complicit in the riots. any other country would have cracked down immediately. they seem to be alright with letting the hatred simmer in irrational manners.
At the end of the day, it's the chinese who are smashing their own cars. Panasonic had to close, yes, and so many chinese workers are out of a job. Sometimes things that aren't even Japanese get smashed, including Samsung, and there is widespread looting all around.
It's pretty funny actually, the americans must be laughing their asses off.
Sigh... They ARE CRACKING DOWN. There's been public statements and actions taken by more than 3 major police forces including major cities. Police forces rarely ever issue public statements in China. There's literally more than 10 statements to protect foreign citizen safety and to report unlawful conduct to local and Japan embassy / relations in the official statements alone. This is actually a case where the police doesn't want to publicize how they are cracking down on the rioters because violence is almost definitely going to ensue and it won't look pretty.
Here's just one example:
http://news.qq.com/a/20120916/000912.htm
Xi'an's police force basically announced that any attempt to organize ANY illegal protest is forbidden, even attempting to do so via phone message or internet will yield criminal trials.
Here's the joint statement from Guangzhou, Qingdao, and Xi'an
http://focus.scol.com.cn/zgsz/content/2012-09/18/content_4097561.htm?node=540
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:35 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:31 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:
[quote]
This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with. You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up. This "wave of propaganda" you are referring to would not even qualify as sensationalist news reporting in the privatized western media system. What is opinion is labeled as opinion, and public statements were dry run of the mill statements you would hear from any head of state or political department. Again I invite you to go to the state run media site http://news.cntv.cn/special/diaoyudao/shouye/index.shtml
You must not have watched the parts where they get a narrator to tell the "history" of what happened in WW2 in a really matter-of-fact voice. On the link you gave me, the reporter also talks in detail about the technological fittings of ships being sent there as if they are about to fight the Japanese. These and other subtle ways of war-mongering.
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On September 18 2012 19:38 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:25 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Those are de facto war reparations, which Japan gave with the intent of paying war reparations, which if Japan had called war reparations Mao wouldn't accept. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues First off, I'd take anything about china coming from the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs with a grain of salt.It's gonna be as biased as anything coming from the CCP. The specific passage regarding war reparations is as follows, and does not mention any actual reparation, just that China would refuse to demand war reparations in the future. "5. The Government of the People's Republic of China declares that in the interest of the friendship between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples, it renounces its demand for war reparation from Japan." Regards to: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.htmlSecond, those "low interest bonds" are not reparation payments, read carefully at the source materials, and you'll see they're just investments from japan after-the-fact for construction projects in China. ODA's are in no way shape or form a kind of reparation payment. Reparation payments GO TO THE VICTIMS, NOT the GOVERNMENT. These payments actually began AFTER the meeting in question in 1972, and had no bearing with the treaty you mentioned previously. They're also INVESTMENTS designed for one purpose, to integrate the japanese and chinese economies. This is nothing but political and economic interdependence, the same of which the US has also provided China. It is designed to reduce hostilities and make war between the two nations an impossibility(which it has become). Calling this a war apology is very much BS, as japan has as much to gain from spawning a new trading partner(with 1 billion consumers, more then any other society in the world) as china did. regards to: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.htmlLastly, maybe you should learn that wikipedia can be very biased. I still see no reparations. Edit: man i should've definitely done this in word first :/ Regarding your first point, it's a joint communique meaning it's signed by both sides. Since you show suspicion of the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I can link you to another host: http://www.ibiblio.org/chinesehistory/contents/03pol/c02sc01It's also well-known that Mao for whatever reasons renounced war reparations. I remember my mom (who grew up in China) telling me this story too and blaming Mao for not accepting reparations. I don't want to look-up the ODA stuff. Maybe I"ll do it tomorrow.
Regardless of where the source came from, it still doesn't mention pre-1972 reparations as implied by the wiki. And as for Mao renouncing reparations from japan, I think I heard that from somewhere too, but I think it had something to do w/ the turmoil in China at the time. China's economy after the civil war was complete shit, and whatever they got from japan would have probably been devalued through conversion and fucked with the communist agenda at the time. Regardless, whatever reparations that were discussed didn't happen, which is a major reason why chinese people are so trigger happy vs japan.
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On September 18 2012 19:41 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:25 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 19:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:On September 18 2012 18:25 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies. no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issueshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details. "China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan. Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan." How are low-interest loans a return of assets? I'm curious to know. Those are de facto war reparations, which Japan gave with the intent of paying war reparations, which if Japan had called war reparations Mao wouldn't accept. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues First off, I'd take anything about china coming from the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs with a grain of salt.It's gonna be as biased as anything coming from the CCP Regards to: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.htmlSecond, those "low interest bonds" are not reparation payments, read carefully at the source materials, and you'll see they're just investments from japan after-the-fact for construction projects in China. ODA's are in no way shape or form a kind of reparation payment. Reparation payments GO TO THE VICTIMS, NOT the GOVERNMENT. These payments actually began AFTER the meeting in question in 1972, and had no bearing with the treaty you mentioned previously. They're also INVESTMENTS designed for one purpose, to integrate the japanese and chinese economies. This is nothing but political and economic interdependence, the same of which the US has also provided China. It is designed to reduce hostilities and make war between the two nations an impossibility(which it has become). Calling this a war apology is very much BS, as japan has as much to gain from spawning a new trading partner(with 1 billion consumers, more then any other society in the world) as china did. regards to: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.htmlLastly, maybe you should learn that wikipedia can be very biased. I still see no reparations. Youre right. They began AFTER because china WOULDNT ACCEPT it before that point. They had no political relations what so ever before 72. If anything blame the communist party for not accepting it in the first place, and when accepting it taking the money for themselves.
First off, Taiwan didn't accept reparations either. So it would be wrong to just blame the communists cuz the capitalists did the exact same thing.
Second, maybe one of the KEY reasons why both china and taiwan did not accept reparations was because THEY WERE NOT THERE AT THE NEGOTIATION TABLE. Only a chump accepts a deal in which they were handed to by third parties. Whether it be pride or whatever, the deal presented to the Chinese was not acceptable by principle alone.
Per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco#People.27s_Republic_of_China_Objections_to_the_Treaty
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On September 18 2012 19:46 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:31 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with. You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up. This "wave of propaganda" you are referring to would not even qualify as sensationalist news reporting in the privatized western media system. What is opinion is labeled as opinion, and public statements were dry run of the mill statements you would hear from any head of state or political department. Again I invite you to go to the state run media site http://news.cntv.cn/special/diaoyudao/shouye/index.shtml You must not have watched the parts where they get a narrator to tell the "history" of what happened in WW2 in a really matter-of-fact voice. On the link you gave me, the reporter also talks about the technological fittings of ships being sent there in detail as if they are about to fight the Japanese. These and other subtle ways of war-mongering.
:/ So the narrator should have told the history with an emotional sentimentalist spin? Jesus Christ, America runs around proclaiming the destination of their aircraft carrier fleets every other month. I don't want to derail this any further. All I can say is compare this with Western sensationalist media coverage.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:52 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:31 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:29 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:21 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:
[quote]
Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread.
edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. In recent memory? Citation needed. There's been alot of protests and riots against China's own government if that's what you are thinking of. Also, these riots are not organized, the inciting events were not China's government propaganda but actions of Japan. If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree. The Chinese government isn't retarded to do something blatant like that. Japanese and the international media pays attention to the Chinese state media, and if they noticed something obvious like that, obviously it gives them a chip on the bargaining table because it looks bad for China. What they are doing is running the same story every single day on CCTV about the Diaoyu Islands that no one would normally give a shit about--they're uninhabited islands, for Christ's sake--and subtly portraying the Japanese as the bad guys and bringing up historical events from WW2. People won't spontaneously riot about something that only got a tiny section in the newspaper and very little coverage in the news, so you can't say the government doesn't have anything to do with the riots. I did not once defend the actions of the rioters, and I'm accusing the individuals who do not represent the will of the Japanese people. I'm portraying the majority of the Chinese and Japanese populous as educated individuals capable of scrutinizing and criticizing a minority with in them who are fucking shit up who they do not agree with. You said "If these riots started after a wave of Chinese propaganda that was recieved as a message to riot against Japan I would agree", but there has indeed been a wave of propaganda as I outlined in my previous post. I agree with you that it's a minority who is fucking shit up. This "wave of propaganda" you are referring to would not even qualify as sensationalist news reporting in the privatized western media system. What is opinion is labeled as opinion, and public statements were dry run of the mill statements you would hear from any head of state or political department. Again I invite you to go to the state run media site http://news.cntv.cn/special/diaoyudao/shouye/index.shtml You must not have watched the parts where they get a narrator to tell the "history" of what happened in WW2 in a really matter-of-fact voice. On the link you gave me, the reporter also talks about the technological fittings of ships being sent there in detail as if they are about to fight the Japanese. These and other subtle ways of war-mongering. :/ So the narrator should have told the history with an emotional sentimentalist spin? Jesus Christ, America runs around proclaiming the destination of their aircraft carrier fleets every other month. I don't want to derail this any further. All I can say is compare this with Western sensationalist media coverage.
The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement and even then, the news channel can choose not to run it). In China, the news is state-run meaning it's another card the government can play in diplomacy (when you can cause riots by putting on news 24/7 about Japan being the villains in something and try to pass it off as the spontaneous uprisings of Chinese people). The difference is free, independent media vs. state-controlled media.
I will agree with you that stuff like Fox News and Rupert Murdoch's media empire is pretty sensationalist and he uses it to push his right-wing views.
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EPT
