Pro-China, Anti-Japan Protests - Page 60

On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:


Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.

China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.

Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan.

On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:


Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.

On September 18 2012 14:21 Xpace wrote:
A lot of people are asking what Japan should do. Well, here's a short, incomplete list that acts as a starter:

- The Emperor of Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan, and all members of the Japanese Diet must sign a hand-written, sincere apology letter to all countries whom Japan had killed citizens of, attacked, invaded and occupied. These include the non-Asian countries of Canada, the United States, France, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) and the United Kingdom who sent troops to various South East Asian countries for support and were considered belligerents in the war. This will also include formal apologies to countries whose later involvement in the Pacific theater must be commended and acknowledged by the relevant Axis power (Japan): Greece, Norway, Belgium, Brazil, the current states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia (formerly Czechoslovakia), Ukraine, Poland, South Africa, and any other country listed in the Charter of the United Nations under the United Nations Conference on International Organization held between April and July of 1945.

- The Chrysanthemum Throne must send a full envoy with Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda that accompanies Emperor Akihito to Nanjing (Nanking), where he and the Prime Minister must get on their knees and bow with his forehead all the way to the floor (their knees and forehead must be exactly at sea level, facing a natural elevated slope such as the foot of a mountain, in complete humility and submission), for the same amount of time, if not more, that West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw. They must also give a speech, directly aimed at all the peoples of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the People's Republic of China, the Republic of Korea, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Macau (SAR), Hong Kong (SAR), the Republic of the Philippines, the Republic of Indonesia (former Dutch East-Indies), the [constitution of] Malaysia, and the Kingdom of Thailand, that may be aired repeatedly on state channels on the wishes of said governments and given freely to any privately owned corporate broadcasting station, showing complete remorse for the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific theater during World War II. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai, the national channel in Japan) must air this at relevant prime time slots for a minimum of four weeks, and all other relevant terrestrial broadcast stations are expected to air footage at similar, non-intrusive time slots at prime time. All foreign non-Asian nations willing to air the contents this particular address are allowed to do so at their expense.

- Japan must build and donate statues and/or shrines commemorating the victims and the casualties of the Pacific War. Every country affected by Japanese aggression, or suffered Japanese occupation, decides what to do with the memorials. They must rival the grandeur and size of the memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan must actively seek and work with the aforementioned countries for the exact details of the memorials, including, but not limited to, listing the names of all known and recorded casualties and the appropriate symbolism(s) that will be used in each individual, unique memorial which will emphasize regret, apology, a willingness to work for future friendship, and that the events will never be forgotten.

- Japan must acknowledge, in full, the atrocities it had committed during World War II. Sources cited by the Allied powers (particularly Canadian presence in Hong Kong, French and British presence in both Korea and China, Dutch presence in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the overall presence of the former Soviet Union (USSR) and the United States Army, Navy and Air Force in the entire Pacific region from the years 1939 to 1945), as well as sources cited by China and all the relevant participants within the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), even when contradicting Japanese history, must be written and published, mentioned and taught, learned and accepted by all relevant historical academia and governing bodies of education in Japan. All forms of curriculum must include these contents, after appropriation and review by the relevant historians of the United States of America, China, and the Republic of Korea (all three of whom previously led the attempts to convince Japan to not omit these facts in their history for half a century), by latest 2015, marking the 70-year anniversary of the unconditional surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Empire of the Rising Sun to the Allied powers of the West and the East, and the official end of World War II.

Germany has the respect of Poland, the rest of the European Union, and the whole world, and they did more or less everything mentioned.

On September 18 2012 18:23 czylu wrote:


let's not forget that apologies can be monetary as well. Germany paid out billions to the Jewish families that suffered in Holocaust. Germany has paid out BILLIONS(by one estimate, 61 billion as of 2000) to Israel and the Jewish families of the holocaust. Japan? Zero. They won't even admit to the war crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:

Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid.



source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues

On September 18 2012 18:47 ShadeR wrote:

I'll be honest. The people deny what occurred are not even on my radar. Why else deny something unless you think it is bad, wrong or embarrassing? It's those that respond without empathy that is truly terrifying. I hesitate to attribute this to cultural integrity but really how else do you explain the absurdly high participation of rape, torture and murder of civilians in the Japanese army that existed under Hirohito's reign?

On September 18 2012 18:48 levelping wrote:


It appears to me that you are stating the above as someone with a certain predisposition to the Japanese and thus not particularly objective in your assessment of what is happening.

Having grown up in an Asian country I can safely say that this will never happen simply since it aims to humiliate Japan (much like Germany in ww1) rather than get any real apology. And speaking as a Singaporean whose grandparents lived during the war (we had massacres too) I would like to point out that it's not impossible for countries just to live and let live. Despite being steamrolled durning ww2 by the Japanese, most of us in SEA are fine with Japan.

And no. We don't want the Hiroshima peace park in Singapore. It's crowded enough.

Comic from a country that has seen Japan at its worst, I think that there are many ways to get over the past. Both countries can come to the realization that it is all in the pass and let bygones be bygones. A little know fact is that Singapore seems to hosts a lot of Japanese school excursions where we take them to local ww2 sites where people were tortured and killed. Governments should just be normal and let peoples heal on their own.

Or we can all just insist on getting an apology from people with no real connection to the people who committed the atroscities being apologized for. Personally I find that china is being disenguous by playing the victim card simply since everyone in Asia was a victim but we don't loot Japanese stores and burn cars. Yes Japan needs to apologize sincerely, but if Japan is going to move on so does china. For better or worse recovering from the war involves both parties. SEA has tried its best to do it so it's no impossible.

On September 18 2012 18:50 Orek wrote:


Would you stop spreading lies because it hurts the argument of other people on your side as well?
Treaty_of_San_Francisco
Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea

You can argue if the amount was enough or not, but saying that Japan paid nothing is an obvious lie.

On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:


I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous.

On September 18 2012 18:53 Caihead wrote:


It's difficult to keep deny-ers under the radar when one of them is the governor of the capital of the country in question and is untouchable politically.

On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:

This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry?

On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:


What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. .

On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:

This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well, so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever as an excuse just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry?

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

On September 18 2012 19:04 czylu wrote:


First off, using this as an example of reparations is ludicrous. All this treaty did was return assets WHICH ORIGINALLY BELONGED TO THE CHINESE. Beyond this, being that one of the affected parties were not even at the negotiating table, how could the chinese even consider this a fair deal? Japan hasn't apologized or paid for squat. You're just being ignorant to the details.

On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:

Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread.

edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name.

On September 18 2012 19:01 ShadeR wrote:

It's disgusting but expected. But to draw the equivalent with Germany you would have the majority of Germans hold the "fucking hell Jews get over it" position.

This is at least the impression i get from the Japanese nationals on TL.

On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:


Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots.