EPTOn September 18 2012 16:44 fuzzy_panda wrote:
Have you lived in China before? Anti-Japanese sentiment is just brewing under the surface constantly and I won't go into why since so many people before me have already done that. These issue with these islands just made it all come to the surface and explode. And rightfully so.
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 16:17 Sickkiee wrote:
Because the past isn't brought up in EVERY election ASFAIK. They don't dwell on the pasts (for good reason I guess). When brought up, they apologize. Else, there is no need to bring it up. Hell, this wasn't even matter until the Islands were contested. How convenient. Suddenly it's Evil Japan bad bad people!
How can you call someone uninformed because they still distrust the country that obliterated theirs? (I don't distrust Germany, however my older generation family does, you know, the ones that suffered)
On September 18 2012 16:13 Xpace wrote:
Opinions are opinions, and they reflect the individual's knowledge (and/or experiences) on the topic. No single opinion is more valid or correct than another. If a guy sincerely thinks and says "nuke China!!!", that's his opinion, and we can disagree and belittle him all we want, but that we can't change his views.
I've lived in Hong Kong, China and Japan, in that order of time spent living/working. I've exposed myself to all the peoples of said countries, I've met apologists, sympathizers, radical nationalists, progressives, the ridiculously rich and the unfortunate impoverished, and even those who just don't give a damn about the world outside their personal lives. But I won't sit here saying the things I've said, while claiming that it's the only way. Or the right way. I'm here to contribute to the discussion.
You ask what the common people can do. Guess what, the common people can speak up. If they're so apologetic, why the hell is Ishihara in office? (I know why he's in office, it's a rhetorical question). That's just ONE question you have to ask yourself. No society is perfect, and the past ten pages (since I posted that long statement on what I feel Japan should do sincerely as a START) are simply proof of that.
On September 18 2012 16:02 Sickkiee wrote:
I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country. Not hard to become an expert in five minutes because of Wikipedia or Google.
Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is.
On September 18 2012 15:59 m4inbrain wrote:
While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better.
On September 18 2012 15:58 Sickkiee wrote:
Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you.
Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao.
On September 18 2012 15:55 Xpace wrote:
No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime.
JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
On September 18 2012 15:46 tokicheese wrote:
Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice.
Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice.
No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime.
On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be.
On September 18 2012 15:22 Xpace wrote:
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No.
Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No.
Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No.
Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion.
Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
On September 18 2012 15:06 Orek wrote:
[quote]
Hmm. I agree with some of those, but I question others. It sounds like you support the idea of "Forget facts, accept everything US, China, and Korea say including fraudulent ones just because you lost the war." To be fair, Japan has been doing pissed poor job at apologizing even for the things that Japanese government admits have happened during WWII. There is no denying that acts against Hague Conventions occured during Imperial Japanese rule, yet Japanese apology toward it doesn't seem sincere. However, that doesn't mean Japan has to do everything victim/winner sides say if that's what you are suggesting.
[quote]
Hmm. I agree with some of those, but I question others. It sounds like you support the idea of "Forget facts, accept everything US, China, and Korea say including fraudulent ones just because you lost the war." To be fair, Japan has been doing pissed poor job at apologizing even for the things that Japanese government admits have happened during WWII. There is no denying that acts against Hague Conventions occured during Imperial Japanese rule, yet Japanese apology toward it doesn't seem sincere. However, that doesn't mean Japan has to do everything victim/winner sides say if that's what you are suggesting.
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
On September 18 2012 15:03 coverpunch wrote:
[quote]
So Japan doesn't get any credit for the things they've done for Asia? Japan is a leading reason for the prosperity and technological progress of people in all Asian countries. If it weren't for the model that Japan provided, South Korea would be just another miserable little speck on the planet. If it weren't for the technology that Japan introduced and traded with Taiwan, it would be a two-bit dictatorship or worse, integrated under the iron fist with which China has repeatedly punched itself in the face. Most significantly, if it weren't for Japan, most of Asia might still be under Western imperialism.
These things you want the Japanese to do reek of humiliation, not humility. You're asking Japan to turn over some parts of their sovereignty over to a multilateral commission and you're about 50 years too late for that to ever happen. The US already played that card by treating MacArthur as proconsul of Japan.
[quote]
So Japan doesn't get any credit for the things they've done for Asia? Japan is a leading reason for the prosperity and technological progress of people in all Asian countries. If it weren't for the model that Japan provided, South Korea would be just another miserable little speck on the planet. If it weren't for the technology that Japan introduced and traded with Taiwan, it would be a two-bit dictatorship or worse, integrated under the iron fist with which China has repeatedly punched itself in the face. Most significantly, if it weren't for Japan, most of Asia might still be under Western imperialism.
These things you want the Japanese to do reek of humiliation, not humility. You're asking Japan to turn over some parts of their sovereignty over to a multilateral commission and you're about 50 years too late for that to ever happen. The US already played that card by treating MacArthur as proconsul of Japan.
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
On September 18 2012 15:08 Sickkiee wrote:
[quote]
Costs them (I am not Japanese but of Polish decent). At our time and age, any country who would do the following would lose all sense of nationality, even if it's for such a terrible crime (do not get me wrong I think it's horrible too, but you're not thinking REALISTICALLY). Sure most people in Japan who I've spoken to about the matter in the past few days feel sorry and apologetic; however why should the present people of Japan have to be forced fed these facts? Are they the people who committed the acts? CAN or WILL they commit them again?
You come off like Japan is secretly build an army to rape and massacre the world. I agree with barely half of your 'statement'. The rest is fantasy.
[quote]
Costs them (I am not Japanese but of Polish decent). At our time and age, any country who would do the following would lose all sense of nationality, even if it's for such a terrible crime (do not get me wrong I think it's horrible too, but you're not thinking REALISTICALLY). Sure most people in Japan who I've spoken to about the matter in the past few days feel sorry and apologetic; however why should the present people of Japan have to be forced fed these facts? Are they the people who committed the acts? CAN or WILL they commit them again?
You come off like Japan is secretly build an army to rape and massacre the world. I agree with barely half of your 'statement'. The rest is fantasy.
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No.
Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No.
Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No.
Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion.
Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be.
JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you.
Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao.
While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better.
I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country. Not hard to become an expert in five minutes because of Wikipedia or Google.
Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is.
Opinions are opinions, and they reflect the individual's knowledge (and/or experiences) on the topic. No single opinion is more valid or correct than another. If a guy sincerely thinks and says "nuke China!!!", that's his opinion, and we can disagree and belittle him all we want, but that we can't change his views.
I've lived in Hong Kong, China and Japan, in that order of time spent living/working. I've exposed myself to all the peoples of said countries, I've met apologists, sympathizers, radical nationalists, progressives, the ridiculously rich and the unfortunate impoverished, and even those who just don't give a damn about the world outside their personal lives. But I won't sit here saying the things I've said, while claiming that it's the only way. Or the right way. I'm here to contribute to the discussion.
You ask what the common people can do. Guess what, the common people can speak up. If they're so apologetic, why the hell is Ishihara in office? (I know why he's in office, it's a rhetorical question). That's just ONE question you have to ask yourself. No society is perfect, and the past ten pages (since I posted that long statement on what I feel Japan should do sincerely as a START) are simply proof of that.
Because the past isn't brought up in EVERY election ASFAIK. They don't dwell on the pasts (for good reason I guess). When brought up, they apologize. Else, there is no need to bring it up. Hell, this wasn't even matter until the Islands were contested. How convenient. Suddenly it's Evil Japan bad bad people!
On September 18 2012 16:05 m4inbrain wrote:
And its not too bad that many views here are from not-asian countries, we may use western standards to analyze the situation, yes - but we also are not blinded by some form of pride or gov. distraction. Its actually as unbiased as you can get.
And about uninformed, someone who "does not hate Germany, but distrusts them" should not talk about uninformed.
On September 18 2012 16:02 Sickkiee wrote:
I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country.
Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is.
On September 18 2012 15:59 m4inbrain wrote:
While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better.
On September 18 2012 15:58 Sickkiee wrote:
Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you.
Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao.
On September 18 2012 15:55 Xpace wrote:
No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime.
JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
On September 18 2012 15:46 tokicheese wrote:
Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice.
Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice.
No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime.
On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be.
On September 18 2012 15:22 Xpace wrote:
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No.
Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No.
Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No.
Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion.
Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
On September 18 2012 15:06 Orek wrote:
[quote]
Hmm. I agree with some of those, but I question others. It sounds like you support the idea of "Forget facts, accept everything US, China, and Korea say including fraudulent ones just because you lost the war." To be fair, Japan has been doing pissed poor job at apologizing even for the things that Japanese government admits have happened during WWII. There is no denying that acts against Hague Conventions occured during Imperial Japanese rule, yet Japanese apology toward it doesn't seem sincere. However, that doesn't mean Japan has to do everything victim/winner sides say if that's what you are suggesting.
[quote]
Hmm. I agree with some of those, but I question others. It sounds like you support the idea of "Forget facts, accept everything US, China, and Korea say including fraudulent ones just because you lost the war." To be fair, Japan has been doing pissed poor job at apologizing even for the things that Japanese government admits have happened during WWII. There is no denying that acts against Hague Conventions occured during Imperial Japanese rule, yet Japanese apology toward it doesn't seem sincere. However, that doesn't mean Japan has to do everything victim/winner sides say if that's what you are suggesting.
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
On September 18 2012 15:03 coverpunch wrote:
[quote]
So Japan doesn't get any credit for the things they've done for Asia? Japan is a leading reason for the prosperity and technological progress of people in all Asian countries. If it weren't for the model that Japan provided, South Korea would be just another miserable little speck on the planet. If it weren't for the technology that Japan introduced and traded with Taiwan, it would be a two-bit dictatorship or worse, integrated under the iron fist with which China has repeatedly punched itself in the face. Most significantly, if it weren't for Japan, most of Asia might still be under Western imperialism.
These things you want the Japanese to do reek of humiliation, not humility. You're asking Japan to turn over some parts of their sovereignty over to a multilateral commission and you're about 50 years too late for that to ever happen. The US already played that card by treating MacArthur as proconsul of Japan.
[quote]
So Japan doesn't get any credit for the things they've done for Asia? Japan is a leading reason for the prosperity and technological progress of people in all Asian countries. If it weren't for the model that Japan provided, South Korea would be just another miserable little speck on the planet. If it weren't for the technology that Japan introduced and traded with Taiwan, it would be a two-bit dictatorship or worse, integrated under the iron fist with which China has repeatedly punched itself in the face. Most significantly, if it weren't for Japan, most of Asia might still be under Western imperialism.
These things you want the Japanese to do reek of humiliation, not humility. You're asking Japan to turn over some parts of their sovereignty over to a multilateral commission and you're about 50 years too late for that to ever happen. The US already played that card by treating MacArthur as proconsul of Japan.
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
On September 18 2012 15:08 Sickkiee wrote:
[quote]
Costs them (I am not Japanese but of Polish decent). At our time and age, any country who would do the following would lose all sense of nationality, even if it's for such a terrible crime (do not get me wrong I think it's horrible too, but you're not thinking REALISTICALLY). Sure most people in Japan who I've spoken to about the matter in the past few days feel sorry and apologetic; however why should the present people of Japan have to be forced fed these facts? Are they the people who committed the acts? CAN or WILL they commit them again?
You come off like Japan is secretly build an army to rape and massacre the world. I agree with barely half of your 'statement'. The rest is fantasy.
[quote]
Costs them (I am not Japanese but of Polish decent). At our time and age, any country who would do the following would lose all sense of nationality, even if it's for such a terrible crime (do not get me wrong I think it's horrible too, but you're not thinking REALISTICALLY). Sure most people in Japan who I've spoken to about the matter in the past few days feel sorry and apologetic; however why should the present people of Japan have to be forced fed these facts? Are they the people who committed the acts? CAN or WILL they commit them again?
You come off like Japan is secretly build an army to rape and massacre the world. I agree with barely half of your 'statement'. The rest is fantasy.
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No.
Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No.
Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No.
Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion.
Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be.
JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you.
Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao.
While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better.
I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country.
Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is.
And its not too bad that many views here are from not-asian countries, we may use western standards to analyze the situation, yes - but we also are not blinded by some form of pride or gov. distraction. Its actually as unbiased as you can get.
And about uninformed, someone who "does not hate Germany, but distrusts them" should not talk about uninformed.
How can you call someone uninformed because they still distrust the country that obliterated theirs? (I don't distrust Germany, however my older generation family does, you know, the ones that suffered)
Have you lived in China before? Anti-Japanese sentiment is just brewing under the surface constantly and I won't go into why since so many people before me have already done that. These issue with these islands just made it all come to the surface and explode. And rightfully so.
My response was mainly in response to the quote's that said that Japan needed to humiliate itself for something that it is clearly not proud of.
You don't see them walking around boasting about how they killed millions of Chinese or raping them.
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