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On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:02 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:55 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:52 Caihead wrote: [quote]
:/ So the narrator should have told the history with an emotional sentimentalist spin? Jesus Christ, America runs around proclaiming the destination of their aircraft carrier fleets every other month. I don't want to derail this any further. All I can say is compare this with Western sensationalist media coverage. The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement). In China, the news is state-run meaning it's another card the government can play in diplomacy (when you can cause riots by putting on news about Japan being the villains in something 24/7 and try to pass it off as the spontaneous uprisings of Chinese people). The difference is free, independent media vs. state-controlled media. I will agree with you that stuff like Fox News and Rupert Murdoch's media empire is pretty sensationalist and he uses it to push his right-wing views. I'm saying that you can't even distinguish one from the other, if anything the Chinese news coverage regarding this is reserved and not inciting. Literally zero pro-riot voices are heard on state news stations or individual news stations, it's unilaterally condemned. I'm sick and tired of the comparison of a "Free" media with a "controlled media" as if there is an inherent moral superiority, what matters is the results and implications. If the free media performs even poorer than the controlled media then arguments can be made, similar with making an argument for controlled economic policies vs free economic policies. Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality.
Should I look up a hotel in China and the news sources it provides at random till the sample size reaches the majority of China's hotels? What would serve as legitimate statistical evidence to you? You and I both know I can't do this, I'm not a major research firm. Feel free to dismiss this as anecdotal then since I can't do that. However I can show individual examples such as the link above for news sources which are shown on TV in china.
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On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:02 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:55 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:52 Caihead wrote: [quote]
:/ So the narrator should have told the history with an emotional sentimentalist spin? Jesus Christ, America runs around proclaiming the destination of their aircraft carrier fleets every other month. I don't want to derail this any further. All I can say is compare this with Western sensationalist media coverage. The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement). In China, the news is state-run meaning it's another card the government can play in diplomacy (when you can cause riots by putting on news about Japan being the villains in something 24/7 and try to pass it off as the spontaneous uprisings of Chinese people). The difference is free, independent media vs. state-controlled media. I will agree with you that stuff like Fox News and Rupert Murdoch's media empire is pretty sensationalist and he uses it to push his right-wing views. I'm saying that you can't even distinguish one from the other, if anything the Chinese news coverage regarding this is reserved and not inciting. Literally zero pro-riot voices are heard on state news stations or individual news stations, it's unilaterally condemned. I'm sick and tired of the comparison of a "Free" media with a "controlled media" as if there is an inherent moral superiority, what matters is the results and implications. If the free media performs even poorer than the controlled media then arguments can be made, similar with making an argument for controlled economic policies vs free economic policies. Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality. Anecdotes are personal accounts based on reality lol....
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On September 18 2012 20:47 yandere991 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:02 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:55 CountChocula wrote: [quote] The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement). In China, the news is state-run meaning it's another card the government can play in diplomacy (when you can cause riots by putting on news about Japan being the villains in something 24/7 and try to pass it off as the spontaneous uprisings of Chinese people). The difference is free, independent media vs. state-controlled media.
I will agree with you that stuff like Fox News and Rupert Murdoch's media empire is pretty sensationalist and he uses it to push his right-wing views. I'm saying that you can't even distinguish one from the other, if anything the Chinese news coverage regarding this is reserved and not inciting. Literally zero pro-riot voices are heard on state news stations or individual news stations, it's unilaterally condemned. I'm sick and tired of the comparison of a "Free" media with a "controlled media" as if there is an inherent moral superiority, what matters is the results and implications. If the free media performs even poorer than the controlled media then arguments can be made, similar with making an argument for controlled economic policies vs free economic policies. Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality. It's quite true though. Any non-retard has access to foreign media, some watch phoenix tv but most source it from random parts from the net.
It's on the bloody TV even with out cable, phoenix was one of the default options in the 90's for TV providers along with other hongkong news channels. I remember watching channels 24 and 25 for english / hong kong content and never tuning into CCTV 1 except for evening news at 7.
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On September 18 2012 13:06 MateShade wrote: Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things.
How about white Australians go back to Europe and leave the land to the aborigines. Shit, China doesn't even own Taiwan.
Racism clearly doesn't make you smarter does it, mate?
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On September 18 2012 21:31 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 13:06 MateShade wrote: Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things. How about white Australians go back to Europe and leave the land to the aborigines. Shit, China doesn't even own Taiwan. Racism clearly doesn't make you smarter does it, mate?
Addendum: List me any other colonial power had granted the same administrative status' and localized law / political constructs to remain intact like China does to areas like Hongkong / Macau / Inner Mongolia. The idiocy is also bloody hilarious because they are the same fucking ethnicity / people, predominantly Chinese - Han. Hongkong people originated mostly from the Guangzhou region and the majority of Taiwan's people migrated over following nationalist defeat.
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The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement).
you know this isn't true right?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2009/04/2009423233919457969.html
The government in any and every country can enforce how its media is structured. People who step out of line are punished.
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Do people not know that Taiwan is the ROC. Republic of China. Or that in Taiwan Han Chinese make up 96% of the population... which is more than the PRC at 91%....
Edit: Caihead you ninja edit skillz
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On September 18 2012 21:33 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 21:31 redviper wrote:On September 18 2012 13:06 MateShade wrote: Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things. How about white Australians go back to Europe and leave the land to the aborigines. Shit, China doesn't even own Taiwan. Racism clearly doesn't make you smarter does it, mate? Addendum: List me any other colonial power had granted the same administrative status' and localized law / political constructs to remain intact like China does to areas like Hongkong / Macau / Inner Mongolia.
I think the American colonies/protectorate to an extent are similar (formerly) Philippines, Puerto Rico, Mashall Islands etc.
Say what I will about the US, they take decent care of their colonies.
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On September 18 2012 21:40 ShadeR wrote: Do people not know that Taiwan is the ROC. Republic of China. Or that in Taiwan Han Chinese make up 96% of the population... which is more than the PRC at 91%....
Edit: Caihead you ninja edit skillz
my master ninja snarkiness has defeated you
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On September 18 2012 21:40 ShadeR wrote: Do people not know that Taiwan is the ROC. Republic of China. Or that in Taiwan Han Chinese make up 96% of the population... which is more than the PRC at 91%....
Edit: Caihead you ninja edit skillz
I didn't know that it was even more Han. Actually the biggest surprise about Taiwan for me was that they actually have a muslim population. For some odd reason I never expected that.
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On September 18 2012 21:42 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 21:33 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 21:31 redviper wrote:On September 18 2012 13:06 MateShade wrote: Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things. How about white Australians go back to Europe and leave the land to the aborigines. Shit, China doesn't even own Taiwan. Racism clearly doesn't make you smarter does it, mate? Addendum: List me any other colonial power had granted the same administrative status' and localized law / political constructs to remain intact like China does to areas like Hongkong / Macau / Inner Mongolia. I think the American colonies/protectorate to an extent are similar (formerly) Philippines, Puerto Rico, Mashall Islands etc. Say what I will about the US, they take decent care of their colonies.
Ah..... It's because it's a policy of imperialism rather than colonialism, America does not settle the area with its own populous with the hope of controlling the majority of the population through population representation, it simply takes over its economical structures to funnel maximal gain of its own state. That is aside from the one example of how it settled itself into the land it now occupies and we know how that went.
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On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be.
This post is why Japan doesn't get forgiveness.
This is why you don't get rid of the hatred and animosity. You don't even accept that the things Japan did were equivalent to the holocaust.
Should Russian not be allowed to mourn the dead in WW2 because the Purges were worse? Should we forget the dead at Hiroshima and Nagasaki because Nanking was worse? One act of great sorrow does not clean the slate for other acts.
Japan killed 30 million people in WW2. Other than Russia, China suffered the largest number of civilian casualties.
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On September 18 2012 16:49 Sickkiee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 16:44 fuzzy_panda wrote:On September 18 2012 16:17 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 16:13 Xpace wrote:On September 18 2012 16:02 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:59 m4inbrain wrote:On September 18 2012 15:58 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:55 Xpace wrote:On September 18 2012 15:46 tokicheese wrote: Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice. No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime. On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:22 Xpace wrote: [quote]
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
[quote]
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
[quote]
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No. Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No. Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No. Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion. Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people. How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust. As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap. I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be. JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE. Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you. Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao. While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better. I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country. Not hard to become an expert in five minutes because of Wikipedia or Google. Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is. Opinions are opinions, and they reflect the individual's knowledge (and/or experiences) on the topic. No single opinion is more valid or correct than another. If a guy sincerely thinks and says "nuke China!!!", that's his opinion, and we can disagree and belittle him all we want, but that we can't change his views. I've lived in Hong Kong, China and Japan, in that order of time spent living/working. I've exposed myself to all the peoples of said countries, I've met apologists, sympathizers, radical nationalists, progressives, the ridiculously rich and the unfortunate impoverished, and even those who just don't give a damn about the world outside their personal lives. But I won't sit here saying the things I've said, while claiming that it's the only way. Or the right way. I'm here to contribute to the discussion. You ask what the common people can do. Guess what, the common people can speak up. If they're so apologetic, why the hell is Ishihara in office? (I know why he's in office, it's a rhetorical question). That's just ONE question you have to ask yourself. No society is perfect, and the past ten pages (since I posted that long statement on what I feel Japan should do sincerely as a START) are simply proof of that. Because the past isn't brought up in EVERY election ASFAIK. They don't dwell on the pasts (for good reason I guess). When brought up, they apologize. Else, there is no need to bring it up. Hell, this wasn't even matter until the Islands were contested. How convenient. Suddenly it's Evil Japan bad bad people! On September 18 2012 16:05 m4inbrain wrote:On September 18 2012 16:02 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:59 m4inbrain wrote:On September 18 2012 15:58 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:55 Xpace wrote:On September 18 2012 15:46 tokicheese wrote: Lets put this into perspective for a second...
3,695,000 civilian casualties in China (lets assume all are from Japan and ignore the Kuomintang/Mao conflict)
Estimates place the Deaths from the great leap forward from 65 million to 70 million in China under Mao. This government party is still in power isnt it?
What Japan did was disgusting during WW2 to the PoWs and the Chinese but forcing this generation which is almost 2 generations removed. Why should they be punished for what their grandparents did? Do Germans today get punished for the holocaust? Do the Jews hate the Germans still? All this is is that China is acting insane again.
Japan is the country that suffered the bombing at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Canadians, Americans, Germans, English, Chinese, Japanese, Russians all commited war crimes in WW2. Some obviously in much greater magnitudes than others but no ones hands are completely clean after WW2. This is just nationalistic bullshit with a healthy dose of victors justice. No, because Germany has apologized and have paid for their previous injustices towards the victims of the Nazi regime. On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:On September 18 2012 15:22 Xpace wrote: [quote]
You're looking at one particular sentence, so I bolded it within my quote. The Japanese CAN teach the facts that they have been teaching all along, but they should INCLUDE the facts given by other countries, not just Korea, China and the United States, as long as it's historical evidence, reviewed and accepted by historians of those institutions, whether or not it's biased. This is just ONE tiny, little thing that students learning history should be aware of.
[quote]
"We can rape your women, children, burn and pillage your homes, force you to learn and use our language, force you to use the Yen, subject you to torture and pain, and degrade you on a physical and mental level, but we gave you technology and prosperity! So, call it even?"
Extremities at its worst. And I won't even touch the subject of how Japan itself benefited from all these "wondrous gifts to neighboring Korea and China". And you make it sound like Japan literally handed the wealth to Korea. No, the Koreans worked for it too. The Taiwanese worked for it too. The Chinese worked for it too. Germany, on the other hand, actually had a number they had to reach.
And finally, I'm going to infer that you're Japanese? Or at least, you have roots in Japan? If I'm wrong I apologize, but only a Japanese person would read what I wrote and say "that's humiliating!!!".
When Willy Brandt knelt, half of West Germany's population thought it was "excessive and humiliating". Ask a person who was alive to witness the event if they still think it's excessive today.
[quote]
Costs them what? Sense of nationality? Isn't 'sense of nationality' the reason why there's protests in China right now?? National pride and patriotism isn't necessary in today's society. I'm not saying it's USELESS, I'm saying society won't collapse without it.
Did the younger generation of West Germany in 1970 have anything to do with World War II? No. Did they belong to the Nazi regime? No. Did their parents STILL associate themselves with the Nazi regime? An overwhelming majority - No. Did they have the same opinion as you, that it was 'excessive and humiliating'? 48% of them did. 41% thought it was appropriate. 11% had no opinion. Unless the Japanese are so rooted in pride and honor that 100% of them will flat out rage if anything even remotely close to what I wrote would happen, then that's a different story, but I would like someone to affirm their belief that it's a possibility (because that's just... sad).
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people. How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust. As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap. I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be. JUST Nanking? How about Unit 731? Or how about the comfort women that are still alive today? The holocaust were CIVILIAN casualties. The Chinese suffered MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Worse or not is NOT THE ISSUE HERE. Clearly saying anything but the utter humiliation of modern-day Japan is useless to you. Seriously like talking to a brick wall lmao. While i disagree with him for the most part, you are actually not better. I didn't come here to have everyone agree with me. I just came here to see people's views. It's sad that so many 'informed' opinions here are actually uninformed people that live in America, Canada, Europe or not actually in China, Japan or any Asian country. Now, I am not Japanese as I've said like 50000 times, but I communicate with the Japanese and they are genuinely apologetic when asked about the atrocities committed by the IJA. Yet what they can do... the common people that is. And its not too bad that many views here are from not-asian countries, we may use western standards to analyze the situation, yes - but we also are not blinded by some form of pride or gov. distraction. Its actually as unbiased as you can get. And about uninformed, someone who "does not hate Germany, but distrusts them" should not talk about uninformed. How can you call someone uninformed because they still distrust the country that obliterated theirs? (I don't distrust Germany, however my older generation family does, you know, the ones that suffered) Have you lived in China before? Anti-Japanese sentiment is just brewing under the surface constantly and I won't go into why since so many people before me have already done that. These issue with these islands just made it all come to the surface and explode. And rightfully so. My response was mainly in response to the quote's that said that Japan needed to humiliate itself for something that it is clearly not proud of. You don't see them walking around boasting about how they killed millions of Chinese or raping them.
I signed up to Teamliquid after reading this thread. Many Japanese posters have the opinion that "it's been 60-70 years ago, it really doesn't matter anymore and everybody should move on. Furthermore, what's the point of apologising when it wouldn't resolve the hate?"
May I suggest that it DOES help to resolve the hate.
Kevin Rudd, the prime minister of Australia did a public apology to the Aboriginal people in 2008, due to crimes towards the Aboriginal people in the past (the Stolen generation, where Aboriginal children were forcibly taken away from their families so that they can be reeducated in "Western" society). Please take note that those events occurred between 1869-1969, which is arguably a longer period compared to WW2, and those events don't even hold a candle (in terms of severity) compared to the Japanese war crimes in WW2. However, the Australian nation (including the politicians, people, scholars) united together to perform a sincere and effective apology. We didn't think that it was a "trivial historical matter" (actually, compared to the Japanese war crimes, the stolen generations could be said as "trivial") as it meant a lot for the Aboriginal community who felt hurt and unfairly treated (up till this day!).
Here is Kevin Rudd's speech (have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations if you're interested)
+ Show Spoiler +Today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history. We reflect on their past mistreatment. We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations – this blemished chapter in our national history. The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page, a new page in Australia's history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future. We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians. We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country. For the pain, suffering and hurt of these Stolen Generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry. To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry. And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry. We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation. For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written. We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians. A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again. A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity. A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have failed. A future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility. A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia.
This is a true and sincere apology, where we recognise and not ignore what the victims have gone through.
You must understand that if there is no sincere apology, no amount of time will be able to heal the wounds of the victims. Don't be naive, as long as history is taught to the younger generations, they will remember all these things. The current state of China is in fact very similar to pre-WW2 Germany, where they felt bullied due to unfair treaties in WW1 (Versailles treaty), which allowed nationalistic sentiment to run high and led to Nazi Germany as a result. Except the fact that China has suffered national humiliation for few hundred years Do you know what happened to the German POWs who fell into Russian hands? http://www.historynet.com/german-pows-and-the-art-of-survival.htm. Have a look at this. If China were allowed an opportunity to invade Japan, I'm pretty sure that it would be a genocide (CCP in power, human nature coupled with a sentiment of hate, this is the facts whether you like it or not). It has happened many times in history (Nazi Germany, USSR for starters) and it might happen again if Japan does not learn from history.
My point is that, Japan has everything to gain and nothing to lose by doing a sincere apology. For starters, this would greatly reduce the hateful sentiments and is a key starting step to reconciliation of the Japanese towards the rest of Asia (not just China, Korea but most of Southeast Asia too). This would bring greater national security in the future (less enmity), better economic and trade relationships (boosts economy) and is furthermore an ethical and moral act which will lift Japan's standing and reputation among the great nations of the world. What is there to lose? National pride? If the Japanese think that all these is not worth their national pride, then perhaps it is time to admit that they are wrong and to rethink their position.
I totally agree with what has to be done as helpfully suggested by Xpace. + Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 14:21 Xpace wrote: A lot of people are asking what Japan should do. Well, here's a short, incomplete list that acts as a starter:
- The Emperor of Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan, and all members of the Japanese Diet must sign a hand-written, sincere apology letter to all countries whom Japan had killed citizens of, attacked, invaded and occupied. These include the non-Asian countries of Canada, the United States, France, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) and the United Kingdom who sent troops to various South East Asian countries for support and were considered belligerents in the war. This will also include formal apologies to countries whose later involvement in the Pacific theater must be commended and acknowledged by the relevant Axis power (Japan): Greece, Norway, Belgium, Brazil, the current states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia (formerly Czechoslovakia), Ukraine, Poland, South Africa, and any other country listed in the Charter of the United Nations under the United Nations Conference on International Organization held between April and July of 1945.
- The Chrysanthemum Throne must send a full envoy with Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda that accompanies Emperor Akihito to Nanjing (Nanking), where he and the Prime Minister must get on their knees and bow with his forehead all the way to the floor (their knees and forehead must be exactly at sea level, facing a natural elevated slope such as the foot of a mountain, in complete humility and submission), for the same amount of time, if not more, that West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw. They must also give a speech, directly aimed at all the peoples of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the People's Republic of China, the Republic of Korea, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Macau (SAR), Hong Kong (SAR), the Republic of the Philippines, the Republic of Indonesia (former Dutch East-Indies), the [constitution of] Malaysia, and the Kingdom of Thailand, that may be aired repeatedly on state channels on the wishes of said governments and given freely to any privately owned corporate broadcasting station, showing complete remorse for the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific theater during World War II. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai, the national channel in Japan) must air this at relevant prime time slots for a minimum of four weeks, and all other relevant terrestrial broadcast stations are expected to air footage at similar, non-intrusive time slots at prime time. All foreign non-Asian nations willing to air the contents this particular address are allowed to do so at their expense.
- Japan must build and donate statues and/or shrines commemorating the victims and the casualties of the Pacific War. Every country affected by Japanese aggression, or suffered Japanese occupation, decides what to do with the memorials. They must rival the grandeur and size of the memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan must actively seek and work with the aforementioned countries for the exact details of the memorials, including, but not limited to, listing the names of all known and recorded casualties and the appropriate symbolism(s) that will be used in each individual, unique memorial which will emphasize regret, apology, a willingness to work for future friendship, and that the events will never be forgotten.
- Japan must acknowledge, in full, the atrocities it had committed during World War II. Sources cited by the Allied powers (particularly Canadian presence in Hong Kong, French and British presence in both Korea and China, Dutch presence in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the overall presence of the former Soviet Union (USSR) and the United States Army, Navy and Air Force in the entire Pacific region from the years 1939 to 1945), as well as sources cited by China and all the relevant participants within the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), even when contradicting Japanese history, must be written and published, mentioned and taught, learned and accepted by all relevant historical academia and governing bodies of education in Japan. All forms of curriculum must include these contents, after appropriation and review by the relevant historians of the United States of America, China, and the Republic of Korea (all three of whom previously led the attempts to convince Japan to not omit these facts in their history for half a century), by latest 2015, marking the 70-year anniversary of the unconditional surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Empire of the Rising Sun to the Allied powers of the West and the East, and the official end of World War II.
Germany has the respect of Poland, the rest of the European Union, and the whole world, and they did more or less everything mentioned.
Personally, I am a Malaysian Chinese who has many friends from mainland China and Southeast Asia. Trust me when I say that the hateful sentiment will NOT go away easily. Most of the younger generation still remembers all these things. My Christian faith does not allow me to hate the Japanese though (love your enemies as yourself - Jesus), I do not harbor any hate towards Japanese, but I can definitely understand how people feel and think. It is one of my greatest wishes that the two great peoples and cultures may be reconciled one day.
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On September 18 2012 21:58 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 15:47 Sickkiee wrote:
Jesus christ you cannot compare Japan to Germany with compared atrocities. Japan committed arguably only the Nanking incident. Germany committed many, many more than affected millions of people.
How can you force Japan to subject to the same, if not worse humiliation for something isn't even on the same freaking level as the holocaust.
As I said, I do agree Japan should sincerely, as do many Japanese people agree. But that isn't going to rid the hatred and animosity. 15-20 years and 50 years is a very, very, very large gap.
I still have family in Poland and America that do not hate, per say, Germany - but harbor distrust of them; however misplaced it may be. This post is why Japan doesn't get forgiveness. This is why you don't get rid of the hatred and animosity. You don't even accept that the things Japan did were equivalent to the holocaust. Should Russian not be allowed to mourn the dead in WW2 because the Purges were worse? Should we forget the dead at Hiroshima and Nagasaki because Nanking was worse? One act of great sorrow does not clean the slate for other acts. Japan killed 30 million people in WW2. Other than Russia, China suffered the largest number of civilian casualties.
While I don't agree that the things Japan did were equivalent to the holocaust, you are right in that finding so-called "worse killings" doesn't make another kiiling any better. Great Purge, Great Leap Forward, Holocaust, Imperial Japanese acts, Hiroshima&Nagasaki etc. are all bad in that they killed innocent civilians. I could care less which one is worse than another.
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On September 16 2012 06:11 NexRex wrote:I am not understanding all of this rioting--not protests, this is all bad. Did everyone decide to take riot pills lately. Protest is fine, but all of this world's old grudges are coming out lately. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:03 Holgerius wrote: Stuff like this makes me so negative regarding the future of our species. Same thoughts here. Humans are apocalyptic; makes me rethink the importance of what we hold on to, whether physical or in our minds. We destroy the world MUCH MORE during our "normal daily lives" by simply consuming more energy than we should and destroying the environment by eating the cheapest food possible and buying throw away equipment which gets replaced every so often. Sadly we western citizens are guilty of this and the bad part about it is that China and India are going to copy our ways and that will be when it is going to be too much. We should be changing our ways to give a better example, but since our economies/companies are locked in battle with each other none of them wants to miss out on a tiny drop of profit. So you can kiss this world good bye in any case and a little rioting wont change anything except requiring a lot of replacements to be bought for smashed windows and cars and so on. Too bad the chinese havent had an original idea yet and are only able to steal them from the rest of the world or produce them in a factory owned by an outside company, so all those shouts to "boycott japanese cars" will not really profit chinese companies.
Oh and I forgot to mention all the one-way plastics which are "recycled" here in germany, but which are in truth just sent to China in big blocks and which the chinese then turn into cheap clothes which get sent back to us ... so the stuff gets sent around the world once and that is a waste of energy.
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On September 18 2012 14:21 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler + A lot of people are asking what Japan should do. Well, here's a short, incomplete list that acts as a starter:
- The Emperor of Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan, and all members of the Japanese Diet must sign a hand-written, sincere apology letter to all countries whom Japan had killed citizens of, attacked, invaded and occupied. These include the non-Asian countries of Canada, the United States, France, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) and the United Kingdom who sent troops to various South East Asian countries for support and were considered belligerents in the war. This will also include formal apologies to countries whose later involvement in the Pacific theater must be commended and acknowledged by the relevant Axis power (Japan): Greece, Norway, Belgium, Brazil, the current states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia (formerly Czechoslovakia), Ukraine, Poland, South Africa, and any other country listed in the Charter of the United Nations under the United Nations Conference on International Organization held between April and July of 1945.
- The Chrysanthemum Throne must send a full envoy with Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda that accompanies Emperor Akihito to Nanjing (Nanking), where he and the Prime Minister must get on their knees and bow with his forehead all the way to the floor (their knees and forehead must be exactly at sea level, facing a natural elevated slope such as the foot of a mountain, in complete humility and submission), for the same amount of time, if not more, that West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw. They must also give a speech, directly aimed at all the peoples of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the People's Republic of China, the Republic of Korea, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Macau (SAR), Hong Kong (SAR), the Republic of the Philippines, the Republic of Indonesia (former Dutch East-Indies), the [constitution of] Malaysia, and the Kingdom of Thailand, that may be aired repeatedly on state channels on the wishes of said governments and given freely to any privately owned corporate broadcasting station, showing complete remorse for the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific theater during World War II. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai, the national channel in Japan) must air this at relevant prime time slots for a minimum of four weeks, and all other relevant terrestrial broadcast stations are expected to air footage at similar, non-intrusive time slots at prime time. All foreign non-Asian nations willing to air the contents this particular address are allowed to do so at their expense.
- Japan must build and donate statues and/or shrines commemorating the victims and the casualties of the Pacific War. Every country affected by Japanese aggression, or suffered Japanese occupation, decides what to do with the memorials. They must rival the grandeur and size of the memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan must actively seek and work with the aforementioned countries for the exact details of the memorials, including, but not limited to, listing the names of all known and recorded casualties and the appropriate symbolism(s) that will be used in each individual, unique memorial which will emphasize regret, apology, a willingness to work for future friendship, and that the events will never be forgotten.
- Japan must acknowledge, in full, the atrocities it had committed during World War II. Sources cited by the Allied powers (particularly Canadian presence in Hong Kong, French and British presence in both Korea and China, Dutch presence in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the overall presence of the former Soviet Union (USSR) and the United States Army, Navy and Air Force in the entire Pacific region from the years 1939 to 1945), as well as sources cited by China and all the relevant participants within the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), even when contradicting Japanese history, must be written and published, mentioned and taught, learned and accepted by all relevant historical academia and governing bodies of education in Japan. All forms of curriculum must include these contents, after appropriation and review by the relevant historians of the United States of America, China, and the Republic of Korea (all three of whom previously led the attempts to convince Japan to not omit these facts in their history for half a century), by latest 2015, marking the 70-year anniversary of the unconditional surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Empire of the Rising Sun to the Allied powers of the West and the East, and the official end of World War II.
Germany has the respect of Poland, the rest of the European Union, and the whole world, and they did more or less everything mentioned.
That would be historic. If that ever happens, then U.S., China, Russia or any country or group of people for that matter can follow German and Japanese examples to make the world a better place for all.
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On September 18 2012 23:22 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 14:21 Xpace wrote:+ Show Spoiler + A lot of people are asking what Japan should do. Well, here's a short, incomplete list that acts as a starter:
- The Emperor of Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan, and all members of the Japanese Diet must sign a hand-written, sincere apology letter to all countries whom Japan had killed citizens of, attacked, invaded and occupied. These include the non-Asian countries of Canada, the United States, France, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) and the United Kingdom who sent troops to various South East Asian countries for support and were considered belligerents in the war. This will also include formal apologies to countries whose later involvement in the Pacific theater must be commended and acknowledged by the relevant Axis power (Japan): Greece, Norway, Belgium, Brazil, the current states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia (formerly Czechoslovakia), Ukraine, Poland, South Africa, and any other country listed in the Charter of the United Nations under the United Nations Conference on International Organization held between April and July of 1945.
- The Chrysanthemum Throne must send a full envoy with Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda that accompanies Emperor Akihito to Nanjing (Nanking), where he and the Prime Minister must get on their knees and bow with his forehead all the way to the floor (their knees and forehead must be exactly at sea level, facing a natural elevated slope such as the foot of a mountain, in complete humility and submission), for the same amount of time, if not more, that West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw. They must also give a speech, directly aimed at all the peoples of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the People's Republic of China, the Republic of Korea, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Macau (SAR), Hong Kong (SAR), the Republic of the Philippines, the Republic of Indonesia (former Dutch East-Indies), the [constitution of] Malaysia, and the Kingdom of Thailand, that may be aired repeatedly on state channels on the wishes of said governments and given freely to any privately owned corporate broadcasting station, showing complete remorse for the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific theater during World War II. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai, the national channel in Japan) must air this at relevant prime time slots for a minimum of four weeks, and all other relevant terrestrial broadcast stations are expected to air footage at similar, non-intrusive time slots at prime time. All foreign non-Asian nations willing to air the contents this particular address are allowed to do so at their expense.
- Japan must build and donate statues and/or shrines commemorating the victims and the casualties of the Pacific War. Every country affected by Japanese aggression, or suffered Japanese occupation, decides what to do with the memorials. They must rival the grandeur and size of the memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan must actively seek and work with the aforementioned countries for the exact details of the memorials, including, but not limited to, listing the names of all known and recorded casualties and the appropriate symbolism(s) that will be used in each individual, unique memorial which will emphasize regret, apology, a willingness to work for future friendship, and that the events will never be forgotten.
- Japan must acknowledge, in full, the atrocities it had committed during World War II. Sources cited by the Allied powers (particularly Canadian presence in Hong Kong, French and British presence in both Korea and China, Dutch presence in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the overall presence of the former Soviet Union (USSR) and the United States Army, Navy and Air Force in the entire Pacific region from the years 1939 to 1945), as well as sources cited by China and all the relevant participants within the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), even when contradicting Japanese history, must be written and published, mentioned and taught, learned and accepted by all relevant historical academia and governing bodies of education in Japan. All forms of curriculum must include these contents, after appropriation and review by the relevant historians of the United States of America, China, and the Republic of Korea (all three of whom previously led the attempts to convince Japan to not omit these facts in their history for half a century), by latest 2015, marking the 70-year anniversary of the unconditional surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Empire of the Rising Sun to the Allied powers of the West and the East, and the official end of World War II.
Germany has the respect of Poland, the rest of the European Union, and the whole world, and they did more or less everything mentioned.
That would be historic. If that ever happens, then U.S., China, Russia or any country or group of people for that matter can follow German and Japanese examples to make the world a better place for all.
Such an optimistic thought have been completely lifted off by the fact that the Japanese government wouldn't perform such derogatory acts to erase their past 'sins'. Such is a the nature of the humanity, the ego just won't let it.
But I must uphold my optimism for this incident to happen for the benefit of our species. Hopefully the Japanese government at least articulate some form of sincere apology.
I am a Chinese person residing in Canada and have some pals of the Japanese variety that doesn't have the Japanese's stereotypical value toward my nationality and vice-versa. And for the majority of my childhood was filled with Japanese animation. This whole conflicts is making it difficult on those memories.
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an apology should never be degrading, nor should you ask anyone to make an apology in such a way that would strip his dignity from him. that is not how gentlemen behave in today's day and age.
a formal and sincere apology should be dignified, maybe with a full bow in the Asian tradition, but done and accepted in a graceful manner. the "get on your knees" mentality that is suggested here is truly horrid and absurd.
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