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For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument.
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On September 18 2012 23:50 shadymmj wrote:
an apology should never be degrading, nor should you ask anyone to make an apology in such a way that would strip his dignity from him. that is not how gentlemen behave in today's day and age.
a formal and sincere apology should be dignified, maybe with a full bow in the Asian tradition, but done and accepted in a graceful manner. the "get on your knees" mentality that is suggested here is truly horrid and absurd.
Getting on one's knees is not uncommon in Japan. Sincerity, honor, respect, regret.
Again, this is a foreign (western) forum, so I don't expect you to accept that fact. There are many things in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Asian cultures in general that westerners will never understand. They might have accepted a lot of them, but they certainly still don't understand them.
If you have the time, Google more examples of when Japanese politicians, CEOs, company presidents and managers have gotten on their knees, with their foreheads touching the ground, as a show of sincere apology.
Pride <---
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On September 18 2012 23:58 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 23:50 shadymmj wrote:
an apology should never be degrading, nor should you ask anyone to make an apology in such a way that would strip his dignity from him. that is not how gentlemen behave in today's day and age.
a formal and sincere apology should be dignified, maybe with a full bow in the Asian tradition, but done and accepted in a graceful manner. the "get on your knees" mentality that is suggested here is truly horrid and absurd. Getting on one's knees is not uncommon in Japan. Sincerity, honor, respect, regret. Again, this is a foreign (western) forum, so I don't expect you to accept that fact. There are many things in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Asian cultures in general that westerners will never understand. They might have accepted a lot of them, but they certainly still don't understand them. If you have the time, Google more examples of when Japanese politicians, CEOs, company presidents and managers have gotten on their knees, with their foreheads touching the ground, as a show of sincere apology. Pride <---
Well, since you seem to know enough about the culture in this manner, you probably realize yourself that the possibility of Japanese officials doing 土下座 to China/Korea for the issues in WW2, is nonexistant. It's just not going to happen, and as you wrote in the end of your post, indeed, it's about pride.
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1) Make claim on island
2) Make old rival country apologize
3) Take island
4) ???
5) Profit !
6) Rinse & repeat
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On September 18 2012 19:56 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 19:17 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 18 2012 19:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:04 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 19:03 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:51 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 18:35 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 18:27 czylu wrote:
[quote]
no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay. Where is this majority coming from? What sources are you using? A monetary compensation is just a format, a public apology is just a format. What they are supposed to mean is that Japan has made reparations for a crime which is committed. Denying that a crime was committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime. Even though Mao rejected the war reparations, he still accepted low-interest loans and money from Japan to the amount of 3 trillion yen, which were war reparations in everything but in name, so stop speaking as if Japan hasn't paid. China refused war reparations from Japan in the 1972 Joint Communiqué, Japan gave ODA (official development assistance), amounting to 3 trillion yen (30 billion USD, 90% of which are low interest loans). In Japan, this was perceived as a way of making amends to China for past military aggression. According to estimates, Japan accounts for more than 60 percent of China's ODA received. About 25 percent of the funding for all of China's infrastructure projects between 1994 and 1998 — including roads, railways, telecom systems and harbours — came from Japan.
Japanese aid to China was rarely formally publicized to the Chinese people by the Chinese government, until Japan announced that aid was to be phased out. It was finally publicly acknowledged by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao during his April 2007 trip to Japan. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Post-War_issues I don't know who you are directing your comment to, this argument is turning into "If Japan has apologized and paid compensations to China they are justified in revising history and denying the events occurred"? In what universe is that okay? It's like paying off the person you just beat up not to cry then denying it happened in the first place, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. You accept the money, but then come back and say, "Thank you for the money, but it doesn't solve any problems?" I was addressing your quote, as well as czylu that you are speaking from ignorance about the facts (you didn't even know Japan paid--funnily enough something the Chinese government doesn't want you to know). Sure the money alone doesn't mean anything, but Japan has already apologized as well as paid "war reparations", so what more do you want? Just keep repeating the terrible stuff Japan did to China forever just to get the moral high ground and keep yourself angry? What? Didn't you read that Shintaro Ishihara is denying that these events happened RIGHT NOW WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE? Didn't you read that There are several attempts at textbook revision that's still ongoing to remove mentions of said events? Didn't you read that there's still denial or lies about the "Comfort women" as being "voluntary" sex slaves? Stop redirecting the topic to monetary reparation, that's just a format. Denial of the events and revising history is also something that people get angry about. . Do you have to bring those things up every time a dispute over islands is involved? Tell me how the textbook revision is related to the current island dispute please. It's ironic you are telling me I am redirecting the topic when you are bringing unrelated stuff to this thread. edit: Btw, the only reason I pointed out that Japan did pay war reparations is that you and czylu were spreading misinformation saying they didn't pay--they did, it was just called a different name. Because these issues are the root of the anger against Japan in China and the islands are just the straw that broke the camel's back, the islands are the catalyst to these riots. I would agree if the straw can break the camel's back over and over. This isn't the first time protests of this size have occurred nor will it be the last. In my own recent memory, this is at least the third. This isn't some spontaneous thing. This is the Chinese government pressing the Japan=evil button over and over. Not that Japan hasn't done terrible things, but devolving into a riot and violence is not acceptable no matter what your cause is, especially when the true victims of the protests are the Chinese people themselves. Agreed. The rioters behavior is no different from, say, Pakistanis who bomb and burn down entire villages and towns in protest for something that a western country has done to wrong Islam or their pride as a nation, or whatever shallow reason. It's irrational, hurting your own people and destroying your own homes and property. It's unwarranted, and reflects a level of ignorance and lack of education. Like Libya; Christopher Stevens, may he rest in peace, was an American who was trying to help them, but the extremist Libyans (who are by far the minority) ruin everything for the majority. This particular story is depressing. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote:
Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish.
If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice... Excellent paragraph dedicated at an ad hominem attack. Are we talking about America's past? Is there widespread hatred for America in Vietnam? Are they burning American flags and destroying American-labeled or branded property? If there is, then we'll get to that discussion. Or is this justification stemming from the notion that if America can get away with it, Japan should follow suit? Enough with the deflections. As for the portion I bolded in your post, it's blatantly obvious that you're oblivious to what's happening. It's quite sad, really, seeing as there are so many other posters with TL IDs from Japan similar to you that are giving more logical, and more importantly factual information. Here, some reading material for you: + Show Spoiler +1. In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere. I had forgotten that in the years preceding, Japanese politicians had stopped writing. 2. In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals. Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II . "I am sorry. Now we go to honor the heroes who comitted the crimes!" (2 years later) "What crimes?" 3. Washington Coalition for Comfort Women Issues also rebuffed the use of a word Owabi, not Shazai, in those Japanese apologies. The coalition said, "the expression owabi in Japanese in most cases means a sense of apology slightly weightier than an excuse me." They also criticized the Japanese government for denying any legal responsibility over such crimes as forced comfort women and refusing to compensate the survivors directly. Japanese government and Prime Ministers have used the expression "kokoro kara no owabi" that means "most sincere apologies" about this issues.[7] Oh, excuse me, we raped your women, some of whom are still alive today. 4. Some in Japan asserted in 1990's that what else is being demanded is that the Japanese Prime Minister or the Emperor perform dogeza, in which an individual kneels and bows his head to the ground—a high form of apology in East Asian societies, that is too humiliating for the Prime Minister or the Emperor.This is exactly what I previously wrote. 5. Emperor Hirohito let it be known to SCAP that he was prepared to apologize formally to General MacArthur for Japan's actions during World War II—including an apology for the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. So the Emperor was willing apologize for Pearl Harbor personally. Something that wasn't even a war crime. But for the massacre of millions he can't put his fucking head to the floor? 6 June 22, 1965. Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo. "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea). This is the most emphatic apology in this list. Its the only time they say regret and remorse for their own actions. This is what I am supporting. But this happened in 1965, every "apology" attempt afterwards were just half-assed. And take note of the circumstances when the apology was being given - during a treaty signing! In other times they say "regret the vexation we cause", "heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in war", "keenly conscious of the responsibility". They all have no mention of the atrocities. No one is saying "we raped women and children in Nanking". They don't admit the genocidal nature of the killings. They're saying sorry... but for what exactly? There is a vast contrast though in how they apologize to the British and US POWs. The people they hurt the least, they give the most effluent apologies. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:48 levelping wrote:On September 18 2012 14:21 Xpace wrote:
A lot of people are asking what Japan should do. Well, here's a short, incomplete list that acts as a starter:
- The Emperor of Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan, and all members of the Japanese Diet must sign a hand-written, sincere apology letter to all countries whom Japan had killed citizens of, attacked, invaded and occupied. These include the non-Asian countries of Canada, the United States, France, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) and the United Kingdom who sent troops to various South East Asian countries for support and were considered belligerents in the war. This will also include formal apologies to countries whose later involvement in the Pacific theater must be commended and acknowledged by the relevant Axis power (Japan): Greece, Norway, Belgium, Brazil, the current states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia (formerly Czechoslovakia), Ukraine, Poland, South Africa, and any other country listed in the Charter of the United Nations under the United Nations Conference on International Organization held between April and July of 1945.
- The Chrysanthemum Throne must send a full envoy with Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda that accompanies Emperor Akihito to Nanjing (Nanking), where he and the Prime Minister must get on their knees and bow with his forehead all the way to the floor (their knees and forehead must be exactly at sea level, facing a natural elevated slope such as the foot of a mountain, in complete humility and submission), for the same amount of time, if not more, that West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw. They must also give a speech, directly aimed at all the peoples of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the People's Republic of China, the Republic of Korea, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Macau (SAR), Hong Kong (SAR), the Republic of the Philippines, the Republic of Indonesia (former Dutch East-Indies), the [constitution of] Malaysia, and the Kingdom of Thailand, that may be aired repeatedly on state channels on the wishes of said governments and given freely to any privately owned corporate broadcasting station, showing complete remorse for the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific theater during World War II. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai, the national channel in Japan) must air this at relevant prime time slots for a minimum of four weeks, and all other relevant terrestrial broadcast stations are expected to air footage at similar, non-intrusive time slots at prime time. All foreign non-Asian nations willing to air the contents this particular address are allowed to do so at their expense.
- Japan must build and donate statues and/or shrines commemorating the victims and the casualties of the Pacific War. Every country affected by Japanese aggression, or suffered Japanese occupation, decides what to do with the memorials. They must rival the grandeur and size of the memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan must actively seek and work with the aforementioned countries for the exact details of the memorials, including, but not limited to, listing the names of all known and recorded casualties and the appropriate symbolism(s) that will be used in each individual, unique memorial which will emphasize regret, apology, a willingness to work for future friendship, and that the events will never be forgotten.
- Japan must acknowledge, in full, the atrocities it had committed during World War II. Sources cited by the Allied powers (particularly Canadian presence in Hong Kong, French and British presence in both Korea and China, Dutch presence in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the overall presence of the former Soviet Union (USSR) and the United States Army, Navy and Air Force in the entire Pacific region from the years 1939 to 1945), as well as sources cited by China and all the relevant participants within the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), even when contradicting Japanese history, must be written and published, mentioned and taught, learned and accepted by all relevant historical academia and governing bodies of education in Japan. All forms of curriculum must include these contents, after appropriation and review by the relevant historians of the United States of America, China, and the Republic of Korea (all three of whom previously led the attempts to convince Japan to not omit these facts in their history for half a century), by latest 2015, marking the 70-year anniversary of the unconditional surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Empire of the Rising Sun to the Allied powers of the West and the East, and the official end of World War II.
Germany has the respect of Poland, the rest of the European Union, and the whole world, and they did more or less everything mentioned. It appears to me that you are stating the above as someone with a certain predisposition to the Japanese and thus not particularly objective in your assessment of what is happening. Having grown up in an Asian country I can safely say that this will never happen simply since it aims to humiliate Japan (much like Germany in ww1) rather than get any real apology. And speaking as a Singaporean whose grandparents lived during the war (we had massacres too) I would like to point out that it's not impossible for countries just to live and let live. Despite being steamrolled durning ww2 by the Japanese, most of us in SEA are fine with Japan. And no. We don't want the Hiroshima peace park in Singapore. It's crowded enough. Comic from a country that has seen Japan at its worst, I think that there are many ways to get over the past. Both countries can come to the realization that it is all in the pass and let bygones be bygones. A little know fact is that Singapore seems to hosts a lot of Japanese school excursions where we take them to local ww2 sites where people were tortured and killed. Governments should just be normal and let peoples heal on their own. Or we can all just insist on getting an apology from people with no real connection to the people who committed the atroscities being apologized for. Personally I find that china is being disenguous by playing the victim card simply since everyone in Asia was a victim but we don't loot Japanese stores and burn cars. Yes Japan needs to apologize sincerely, but if Japan is going to move on so does china. For better or worse recovering from the war involves both parties. SEA has tried its best to do it so it's no impossible. It's " impossible" (or so you'd believe!) because no East Asian nation has ever gone out of its way, with utmost regret and sincerity, to correct their mistakes. That was history that spanned hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. Japan and China in 2012 are in a situation where their actions can truly make a difference. In reality, it's not blind optimism to see things this way. It's progression. "It won't make a difference" - that's such a defeatist attitude. You and I, as younger generations who have relatives who experienced the horror of the Japanese invasion, some of whom are still living today, we don't feel what they felt. We don't remember what they remember. But it would be nice if we can go up to them and tell them that while their remaining time on this Earth is short, may they die knowing that the children of those responsible for committing dehumanizing acts on them, their families and friends, are AWARE of the past, that they KNOW the FACTS and the unequivocal TRUTH, that it was despicable and horrendous, and that they will teach their children, and their children's children, not to repeat the mistakes of the past generations, so something like this can be avoided by future generations. Is it happening right now? Definitely, but the apologists' voices are drowned by people like Ishihara and other right-wing fanatics. It falls to the Japanese people, who have the power to elect their officials and their representatives, to ensure that more progress happens. That it's not going to result in half-assed apologies, but rather sincerity. That's how progress works. You start with a small step. You work towards the future.
Well the if we are talking about small steps then building the Hiroshima peace memorial in all countries that were occupied by Japan during ww2 as per you suggest does not exactly seem like something... Small. Or for that matter dealing thousands of years of cultural pride (as you have noted). I am sorry. I understand that you are clearly passionate about this issue but I think you passion is affecting your assessment especially in what you think is appropriate for Japan to do.
Small steps is an approach that has to be taken by both sides. Surely china knows that Japan faces all kinds of internal and cultural barriers to apologizing. If Japan apologized now it would just look like it faced into pressure something that Japan will not want to project. So essentially the more te issue is forced, the more ultrnationalidts feel threatened, the less inclined anyone is towards making some move towards closure.
Besides we also need to take into consideration the current geo political situation. China is he new big kid on the bloc that most people feel threatened by. If Japan gives in by giving up the islands (a semi separate issue from the apology) then suddenly the rest of us will be looking log and hard at the rest of chinas claims in the south china sea.
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On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument.
Taking Responsibility
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On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument.
America was first attacked by Japan. The act was to force a surrender. No one knew exactly what the devastation of the bomb would bring. If America didn't apologize, at least there's a reason.
Tibet is Chinese territory, does Dalai Lama want to apologize for his previous incarnations enslaving Tibetans? And hand in NK? wtf are you talking about? Was the Kim family from China and I didn't know about it? If so they should really apologize to the NK people.
What other erroneous examples would you like to use?
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On September 19 2012 00:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 23:58 Xpace wrote:On September 18 2012 23:50 shadymmj wrote:
an apology should never be degrading, nor should you ask anyone to make an apology in such a way that would strip his dignity from him. that is not how gentlemen behave in today's day and age.
a formal and sincere apology should be dignified, maybe with a full bow in the Asian tradition, but done and accepted in a graceful manner. the "get on your knees" mentality that is suggested here is truly horrid and absurd. Getting on one's knees is not uncommon in Japan. Sincerity, honor, respect, regret. Again, this is a foreign (western) forum, so I don't expect you to accept that fact. There are many things in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Asian cultures in general that westerners will never understand. They might have accepted a lot of them, but they certainly still don't understand them. If you have the time, Google more examples of when Japanese politicians, CEOs, company presidents and managers have gotten on their knees, with their foreheads touching the ground, as a show of sincere apology. Pride <--- Well, since you seem to know enough about the culture in this manner, you probably realize yourself that the possibility of Japanese officials doing 土下座 to China/Korea for the issues in WW2, is nonexistant. It's just not going to happen, and as you wrote in the end of your post, indeed, it's about pride.
Yeah... quite the conundrum. Lol.
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Hope the revolts won't continue as hard as today, since it was the 9/18 anniversary... Why do I have to visit my parents at such a horrid time..
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On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument.
Exactly my thoughts.
We are bunch of hypocrites, blaming the wrongdoings of others but justifying your own. Germany took, or was forced to take, courageous steps to get out of this league of hypocritical nations. Japan receives arguably the most blames because it lost the war. Japan, however, can take this opportunity to become a country with higher morality & dignity than other nations that are no better but only happened to win the war.
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This isn't helping anyone. It isn't helping the chinese, it isn't helping the japanese, it isn't helping the world. To be honest right now I see both sides of the argument, with the islands as only a totem of pride, on how the Chinese want the Japanese to apologise, on how pride takes an issue for the Japanese.
I don't forsee any short term solutions, but the only thing I'm hoping against would be a war.
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when you kowtow, you put yourself in a vastly inferior position...i may be a western born asian, but yes, i do at least understand these things
it's acceptable (although somewhat abnormal) to kowtow intra-society, from younger to elder, employee to employer, minister to nation. but not nation to nation. the idea is ridiculous, oppressive, and totally unheard of. neither is making monuments to people they killed a bright idea. they will be immediately defaced by the chinese hordes. it is their own government who should do these sort of things. you're just being terribly absurd.
the only idea that is acceptable is to stop whitewashing history.
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On September 19 2012 00:16 shadymmj wrote:
when you kowtow, you put yourself in a vastly inferior position...i may be a western born asian, but yes, i do at least understand these things
it's acceptable (although somewhat abnormal) to kowtow intra-society, from younger to elder, employee to employer, minister to nation. but not nation to nation. the idea is ridiculous, oppressive, and totally unheard of. neither is making monuments to people they killed a bright idea. they will be immediately defaced by the chinese hordes. it is their own government who should do these sort of things. you're just being terribly absurd.
the only idea that is acceptable is to stop whitewashing history.
Obama bowed to Hirohito. Not dogeza, but a bow nonetheless. The Japanese reaction was very, very positive, and not in a "lol, this guy is our bitch" kind of way. They admired and respected his understanding of Japanese culture, some even found it 'excessive' and that he didn't need to do that! The reaction on the American side, on the other hand, was a very different story (western point of view).
Edit: To clarify, I get your stance on the matter. I don't agree with the extreme POV that it would be 'oppressive', but I understand your disagreements nonetheless.
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On September 18 2012 20:50 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:02 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 19:55 CountChocula wrote:
[quote]
The difference is in the Western news, it's not dictated by the government what news to run (unless an important person is making a statement). In China, the news is state-run meaning it's another card the government can play in diplomacy (when you can cause riots by putting on news about Japan being the villains in something 24/7 and try to pass it off as the spontaneous uprisings of Chinese people). The difference is free, independent media vs. state-controlled media.
I will agree with you that stuff like Fox News and Rupert Murdoch's media empire is pretty sensationalist and he uses it to push his right-wing views. I'm saying that you can't even distinguish one from the other, if anything the Chinese news coverage regarding this is reserved and not inciting. Literally zero pro-riot voices are heard on state news stations or individual news stations, it's unilaterally condemned. I'm sick and tired of the comparison of a "Free" media with a "controlled media" as if there is an inherent moral superiority, what matters is the results and implications. If the free media performs even poorer than the controlled media then arguments can be made, similar with making an argument for controlled economic policies vs free economic policies. Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality. Anecdotes are personal accounts based on reality lol....
There's actually a lot of information moving around on weibo that gets spread before it can be shut down.
Everyone knows the media in China is skewed, people just choose to mind it differently. The govt is very good at pleasing the population and making them docile.
The whole Anti Japan thing is something that has been brooding for a long time and was more a question of when since China's skyrocketing performance on the global stage. I try to understand the hatred my father and mother have. My grandfather was a medic during the war and my grandmother was a child spy delivering letters. They were given a very nice retirement in a military residential area where my father grew up. Our whole family visited Japan 2 months ago and my parents had a lot to say about it and I agree: Japanese people have a very admirable spirit and incredible attention to detail. Their work ethic is amazing. The japanese govt should make a formal apology for the crimes they committed. I think there are many modern Japanese people who do not approve of their govts actions either. Pretending like nothing happened is of course going to cause a response.
China's next move is to probably try starve Japan by denouncing their products.
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That teacher could very likely be dead O.o
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was the english teacher in update #6 japanese?
cause if he wasnt, your friend is an asshole
and thats sugarcoating it
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On September 19 2012 00:29 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 20:50 ShadeR wrote:On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:02 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
I'm saying that you can't even distinguish one from the other, if anything the Chinese news coverage regarding this is reserved and not inciting. Literally zero pro-riot voices are heard on state news stations or individual news stations, it's unilaterally condemned. I'm sick and tired of the comparison of a "Free" media with a "controlled media" as if there is an inherent moral superiority, what matters is the results and implications. If the free media performs even poorer than the controlled media then arguments can be made, similar with making an argument for controlled economic policies vs free economic policies. Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality. Anecdotes are personal accounts based on reality lol.... There's actually a lot of information moving around on weibo that gets spread before it can be shut down. Everyone knows the media in China is skewed, people just choose to mind it differently. The govt is very good at pleasing the population and making them docile. The whole Anti Japan thing is something that has been brooding for a long time and was more a question of when since China's skyrocketing performance on the global stage. I try to understand the hatred my father and mother have. My grandfather was a medic during the war and my grandmother was a child spy delivering letters. They were given a very nice retirement in a military residential area where my father grew up. Our whole family visited Japan 2 months ago and my parents had a lot to say about it and I agree: Japanese people have a very admirable spirit and incredible attention to detail. Their work ethic is amazing. The japanese govt should make a formal apology for the crimes they committed. I think there are many modern Japanese people who do not approve of their govts actions either. Pretending like nothing happened is of course going to cause a response. China's next move is to probably try starve Japan by denouncing their products.
Elaborate please.
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On September 19 2012 00:25 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 00:16 shadymmj wrote:
when you kowtow, you put yourself in a vastly inferior position...i may be a western born asian, but yes, i do at least understand these things
it's acceptable (although somewhat abnormal) to kowtow intra-society, from younger to elder, employee to employer, minister to nation. but not nation to nation. the idea is ridiculous, oppressive, and totally unheard of. neither is making monuments to people they killed a bright idea. they will be immediately defaced by the chinese hordes. it is their own government who should do these sort of things. you're just being terribly absurd.
the only idea that is acceptable is to stop whitewashing history. Obama bowed to Hirohito. Not dogeza, but a bow nonetheless. The Japanese reaction was very, very positive, and not in a "lol, this guy is our bitch" kind of way. They admired and respected his understanding of Japanese culture, some even found it 'excessive' and that he didn't need to do that! The reaction on the American side, on the other hand, was a very different story (western point of view). Edit: To clarify, I get your stance on the matter. I don't agree with the extreme POV that it would be 'oppressive', but I understand your disagreements nonetheless.
whoa whoa whoa, lets not clump all of the 'american side' views together. Only conservatives who already dislike Obama had issues with his bowing, it became a huge debacle here on conservative news media namely Fox News. Anyone who wasn't just simply throwing around party representation reasons, either thought it was 'slightly excessive but not omg end of the world', or thought it was a nice gesture to show respect to another nation. I thought it was cool, and so did most people I know. Just wanted to clarify that point.
ugh, and with IEM being cancelled, this is getting dumb (it was dumb to begin with but now the TL community actually is directly affected as a whole). I just don't get what this accomplishes for either side.
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On September 19 2012 00:41 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 00:29 pyrogenetix wrote:On September 18 2012 20:50 ShadeR wrote:On September 18 2012 20:44 reDicE wrote:On September 18 2012 20:32 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:28 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:13 CountChocula wrote:On September 18 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 20:06 CountChocula wrote:
[quote]
Are you seriously contesting the view that a free, independent media is straight up better than a state-controlled media? In a state-controlled media, you can run whatever propaganda you want and no one can shutdown your channel. Do you think CCP has this ability, but chooses not to use it? Sounds to me like when your #1 goal is to stay in power, this is a pretty awesome ability to have. This is why a free, independent media is better. I'm contesting that there is an inherent moral superiority for a free media system over a controlled media system. A truly free media system means that any opinion can be voiced regardless of factual evidence or legitimacy for any purpose. And a truly controlled media system is completely incidental to the views of the controller. This is true regardless of whether you have a state run media system or a media mongrel run media system. The best system lies somewhere in between. Sure, I agree with you that with independent media there can be cases like Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, which tends to lie and not tell the truth, but state-media will NEVER have any credibility. Free, independent media at least has the chance to keep their mission statement as trying their best to remain unbiased. State-controlled media does not even have the chance due to the conflict of interest I highlighted. False, if the government represent the interests of the people then a state run media would represent the views and interests of the people since they are in coincidence. What the state run media system in China lacks is the process of democratic critique and adjustment based on the views of the people, you can also apply the same thing to any media system. Easy. If there was a government that represented the interests of the people, then there would be no need for state-run media in the first place. Have you ever questioned why there is only state-run media in China and not any free, independent media? Have you never been suspicious of the need for a state-run media in China? Whose needs does such a media serve first and foremost? Facepalm. Are you saying that the thousands of newspapers, local and municipal news radio stations, magazine and book sources, as well as international news stations don't exist in China? Are you sure you lived in China? I get more international news channels in a Chinese >3 star hotel than I do in an American one. Like I said, you can hardly find a single person in China who isn't extremely skeptical of government announcements and state media news when there is any political or party related interest in the news story, because we know the bias. I can hardly take any of your anecdotal evidence as a fact of the reality. Anecdotes are personal accounts based on reality lol.... There's actually a lot of information moving around on weibo that gets spread before it can be shut down. Everyone knows the media in China is skewed, people just choose to mind it differently. The govt is very good at pleasing the population and making them docile. The whole Anti Japan thing is something that has been brooding for a long time and was more a question of when since China's skyrocketing performance on the global stage. I try to understand the hatred my father and mother have. My grandfather was a medic during the war and my grandmother was a child spy delivering letters. They were given a very nice retirement in a military residential area where my father grew up. Our whole family visited Japan 2 months ago and my parents had a lot to say about it and I agree: Japanese people have a very admirable spirit and incredible attention to detail. Their work ethic is amazing. The japanese govt should make a formal apology for the crimes they committed. I think there are many modern Japanese people who do not approve of their govts actions either. Pretending like nothing happened is of course going to cause a response. China's next move is to probably try starve Japan by denouncing their products. Elaborate please.
I think he is talking about China banning Japan from exporting out their products to their country.
As for what products i do not know.
Personally speaking,Japan should let go of their national pride and just make a really formal apology.
Japan gov making comments that the comfort women was merely " prostitute " instead of them being actual sex slave is of course gonna pissed off plenty of countries especially the Asian countries.
I wonder whether do they even think before making such comments.
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EPT
