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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
On September 15 2012 14:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 13:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Edit: Just because you can interpret a law in some way does not mean it's actually used that way in our justice system. In Canada, you have to be saying some damn disgusting shit for it to be considered hate speech. Especially in an humorous setting, joking around with stereotypes won't get you in trouble.
I think you're using "joking around" very loosely here and you should tread more carefully with that word. It is getting late so I will be done with this but I'd just simply like to leave with the fact that all law is subjective and it can change based on bias and viewpoints but I would feel rather comfortable (and a friend of mine who I happened to have a similar discussion today with during lunch on campus, he studies law, would also feel comfortable) being the prosecutor on such a case because there are so many case studies and examples (mainly from the black side of the table through the 40's 70's) where you can draw comparisons. Any who all I said was that we, as a people, are alienizing Islam and Muslims horrendously while doing similar things to different factions would exploit yourself to rage and anger from the entire world. Goodnight !! :D Never liked hatespeech laws myself, or indeed anything that puts an importance on ethnic/racial/sexual identity ahead of other things. The one thing I could make an exception for is the spreading of lies that are likely to harm. For example if you go around saying that 'Group X are eating children en masse' and its patently untrue and liable to increase tension, then yeah that's something that could be looked at. Even with legitimate news media outlets printing falsehoods, in that this has a negative effect on how people perceive the world/certain groups. Kind of hard to enforce anything like that but the media in the West gets away with a ridiculous amount of lazy/straight-up-wrong reporting, often with an agenda behind it. In essence that filmaker is the kind of guy I never have to meet to know that he is a grade A prick and an idiot. However being smacked down for being an idiot is all the censure that should be required (except of course if he breached his bail conditions as has been reported as possible) The sad thing is, the reaction by the Muslim world, the subsequent showing of the disturbances in the mass media, often without reference to the many, many moderate and tolerant Muslims is going to result in yet more anti-Islamic sentiment. This is coming from the genuinely hateful, and the people who are just ignorant of the situation through no real fault of their own.
I refuse to accept that it is possible to make something like the video/movie he made and not know that people WILL die because of it. Maybe im just better at pattern recognition than most but if I had just seen that video on internet before knowing of any riots or issues my first thought would have been "this is going to get ugly" and im sure that people who did see it before the riots had similer thoughts and if those people are able to realize that than theres no way no one who worked on it realised that but they did it anyway and if you make something knowing it will cause people to die you are at least a little culpable in there deaths.
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Well isn't that just a lovely child...
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On September 15 2012 12:56 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 12:52 eight.BiT wrote:On September 15 2012 12:46 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I feel like if I made a video that had every black racist stereotype I would be sent to jail for hate crimes but it seems ok to do it to Muslims? Did you think about this before you typed it at all? I don't understand, is there something wrong with that statement? Why is it not ok to racially stereotype one people but ok to slur another? Like always if you can place a valid argument my viewpoint can change (that's how arguments work) but a one line "you think bro" kinda comment makes me wonder... Did you think about this before you typed it at all?
I think the real question here is 'if you made a piss poor camp video that had every black racist stereotype would black people around the world start burning Canadian embassies and kill Canadian diplomats?'
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This is insane. I mean racists videos are all over the internet, hell bazillions of sites are dedicated to muslim hatred, yet, a highly comical and idiotic trailer of a movie that doesn't even exists made by a egyptian copt flares up protests all over the world.
Feels so unreal...
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On September 15 2012 16:18 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 14:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 15 2012 13:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Edit: Just because you can interpret a law in some way does not mean it's actually used that way in our justice system. In Canada, you have to be saying some damn disgusting shit for it to be considered hate speech. Especially in an humorous setting, joking around with stereotypes won't get you in trouble.
I think you're using "joking around" very loosely here and you should tread more carefully with that word. It is getting late so I will be done with this but I'd just simply like to leave with the fact that all law is subjective and it can change based on bias and viewpoints but I would feel rather comfortable (and a friend of mine who I happened to have a similar discussion today with during lunch on campus, he studies law, would also feel comfortable) being the prosecutor on such a case because there are so many case studies and examples (mainly from the black side of the table through the 40's 70's) where you can draw comparisons. Any who all I said was that we, as a people, are alienizing Islam and Muslims horrendously while doing similar things to different factions would exploit yourself to rage and anger from the entire world. Goodnight !! :D Never liked hatespeech laws myself, or indeed anything that puts an importance on ethnic/racial/sexual identity ahead of other things. The one thing I could make an exception for is the spreading of lies that are likely to harm. For example if you go around saying that 'Group X are eating children en masse' and its patently untrue and liable to increase tension, then yeah that's something that could be looked at. Even with legitimate news media outlets printing falsehoods, in that this has a negative effect on how people perceive the world/certain groups. Kind of hard to enforce anything like that but the media in the West gets away with a ridiculous amount of lazy/straight-up-wrong reporting, often with an agenda behind it. In essence that filmaker is the kind of guy I never have to meet to know that he is a grade A prick and an idiot. However being smacked down for being an idiot is all the censure that should be required (except of course if he breached his bail conditions as has been reported as possible) The sad thing is, the reaction by the Muslim world, the subsequent showing of the disturbances in the mass media, often without reference to the many, many moderate and tolerant Muslims is going to result in yet more anti-Islamic sentiment. This is coming from the genuinely hateful, and the people who are just ignorant of the situation through no real fault of their own. I refuse to accept that it is possible to make something like the video/movie he made and not know that people WILL die because of it. Maybe im just better at pattern recognition than most but if I had just seen that video on internet before knowing of any riots or issues my first thought would have been "this is going to get ugly" and im sure that people who did see it before the riots had similer thoughts and if those people are able to realize that than theres no way no one who worked on it realised that but they did it anyway and if you make something knowing it will cause people to die you are at least a little culpable in there deaths.
The average person with any knowledge of the international news of the past few years would know that movie was going to have an effect along these lines. Not quite so substantial perhaps, but the basic premise of at least some protests would be certain.
Making the case that this is a reason to not make such media is a different and not nearly so self evident matter, as the emerging trend for intentionally 'offensive' islamic protests of media counter protests can attest.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries.
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On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries.
Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do.
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On September 15 2012 12:20 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 12:11 Orek wrote:
Everyone has different perspective. To me, what is acceptable and unacceptable are:
Acceptable
1. Criticizing another religion or group of people.
2. Peacefully demonstrating on the streets or in front of foreign embassies.
Unacceptable
1. Purposefully offending people of another religion under the flag of "freedom of speech."
2. Resorting to violence to show how upset you are about what another country or a man in the country did.
Both sides crossed the line. yeah, and some of them are wrong (like yours) you should be able to criticize any religion without being fearful for your life. Purposefully offending people of another religion under the flag of "freedom of speech." does not fall under unacceptable in 1st world countries, sorry.
The United States is obviously tautologically a First World country, but it is not all, nor most, nor even some First World countries. It is one country.
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Remind me about the Muhammed picture in a Danish newspaper few years back. The shit also hit the fan there
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do.
There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants.
Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions.
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On September 15 2012 18:40 Evilmystic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do. There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants. Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions.
its already this way but it's really hard to catch these people and eventho they actively track them down, they will always only catch a couple for a dozen of them.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On September 15 2012 18:44 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:40 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do. There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants. Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions. its already this way but it's really hard to catch these people and eventho they actively track them down, they will always only catch a couple for a dozen of them.
They just don't try hard enough to catch them. It's pretty easy when there are people who come to public places holding posters with calls to behead people (or smth. else, beheading is just on the photo on this page) or shouting such calls. You only have to record them on video then arrest them and throw in jail for a few years. Do it a few times and such things won't happen so often anymore.
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On September 15 2012 18:53 Evilmystic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:44 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:40 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do. There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants. Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions. its already this way but it's really hard to catch these people and eventho they actively track them down, they will always only catch a couple for a dozen of them. They just don't try hard enough to catch them. It's pretty easy when there are people who come to public places holding with a calls to behead people (or smth. else, beheading is just on the photo on this page) or shout such calls. You only have to record them on video then arrest them and throw in jail for a few years. Do it a few times and such things won't happen so often anymore.
And if jail was unfeasible due to the large numbers of violent protesters, we could impose heavy fines for such crimes, maybe 20,000 USD for the first offence, then 50,000, then a jail term, and so on. Make the punishments heavy enough that they won't dare do it again.
I wonder if it's possible for legal procedures to be tweaked in such a way so that large numbers of violent protesters can be charged extremely swiftly (say, 10,000 people in a couple of months). That money will help to fund prevention of further such incidents.
Also, I quote the guy before me
On September 15 2012 17:45 ahappystar wrote:
I think the real question here is 'if you made a piss poor camp video that had every black racist stereotype would black people around the world start burning Canadian embassies and kill Canadian diplomats?'
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On September 15 2012 19:27 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:53 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:44 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:40 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do. There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants. Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions. its already this way but it's really hard to catch these people and eventho they actively track them down, they will always only catch a couple for a dozen of them. They just don't try hard enough to catch them. It's pretty easy when there are people who come to public places holding with a calls to behead people (or smth. else, beheading is just on the photo on this page) or shout such calls. You only have to record them on video then arrest them and throw in jail for a few years. Do it a few times and such things won't happen so often anymore. And if jail was unfeasible due to the large numbers of violent protesters, we could impose heavy fines for such crimes, maybe 20,000 USD for the first offence, then 50,000, then a jail term, and so on. Make the punishments heavy enough that they won't dare do it again. I wonder if it's possible for legal procedures to be tweaked in such a way so that large numbers of violent protesters can be charged extremely swiftly (say, 10,000 people in a couple of months). That money will help to fund prevention of further such incidents. Also, I quote the guy before me Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 17:45 ahappystar wrote:
I think the real question here is 'if you made a piss poor camp video that had every black racist stereotype would black people around the world start burning Canadian embassies and kill Canadian diplomats?'
Beeing black isn't a religious software, it's a physical trait.
Outdated/primitiv mental softwares tend to turn people nuts.
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lol news says in france the film maker is going to be arrested and that he is a meth user hahaha
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On September 15 2012 19:27 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:53 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:44 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:40 Evilmystic wrote:On September 15 2012 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On September 15 2012 18:25 Evilmystic wrote:
Sure not much can be done about people protesting and calling for violence in Middle East and North Africa. But I really think people who explicitly state their refusal to accept our common values, such as freedom of speech, have no place in the Western world and should be extradited back to their home countries. Yeah but when they're born in western countries and grew up there, you just can't do that. It's more about banning any extreme religious teaching. And that's really hard to do. There are a lot of people on such protests who are not citizens, some of them are even illegal immigrants. Banning extreme religious teachings isn't really an option I think, as it is itself a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. More proper action would be instituting harsh punishments for public calls to commit violence and public justification of obviously criminal actions. its already this way but it's really hard to catch these people and eventho they actively track them down, they will always only catch a couple for a dozen of them. They just don't try hard enough to catch them. It's pretty easy when there are people who come to public places holding with a calls to behead people (or smth. else, beheading is just on the photo on this page) or shout such calls. You only have to record them on video then arrest them and throw in jail for a few years. Do it a few times and such things won't happen so often anymore. And if jail was unfeasible due to the large numbers of violent protesters, we could impose heavy fines for such crimes, maybe 20,000 USD for the first offence, then 50,000, then a jail term, and so on. Make the punishments heavy enough that they won't dare do it again. I wonder if it's possible for legal procedures to be tweaked in such a way so that large numbers of violent protesters can be charged extremely swiftly (say, 10,000 people in a couple of months). That money will help to fund prevention of further such incidents. Also, I quote the guy before me Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 17:45 ahappystar wrote:
I think the real question here is 'if you made a piss poor camp video that had every black racist stereotype would black people around the world start burning Canadian embassies and kill Canadian diplomats?'
I think you're too soft with the 20,000$ fine or imprisonment of 10,000 people for protesting
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It's funny how the same people who say that freedom of speech should allow you to make such movies are the same that ask all the protesters to be imprisonned, fined or I don't know what.
If you can make a racist movie because freedom of speech is holy ground, you can make a demo because you don't like whatever you don't like. Mind you, 99,99% of those people are absolutely peaceful.
I'm not supporting these idiots and their medieval beliefs and thought, and I agree this is completely ridiculous, but you guys should be a bit consistent. And the fact some extremists killed this ambassador doesn't mean all the protesters and protests are violent.
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On September 15 2012 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's funny how the same people who say that freedom of speech should allow you to make such movies are the same that ask all the protesters to be imprisonned, fined or I don't know what.
If you can make a racist movie because freedom of speech is holy ground, you can make a demo because you don't like whatever you don't like. Mind you, 99,99% of those people are absolutely peaceful.
I'm not supporting these idiots and their medieval beliefs and thought, and I agree this is completely ridiculous, but you guys should be a bit consistent. And the fact some extremists killed this ambassador doesn't mean all the protesters and protests are violent.
We're talking about violent protesters. As long as they are peaceful, it's fine. However, once people start showing violence, arrest them immediately.
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On September 15 2012 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's funny how the same people who say that freedom of speech should allow you to make such movies are the same that ask all the protesters to be imprisonned, fined or I don't know what.
If you can make a racist movie because freedom of speech is holy ground, you can make a demo because you don't like whatever you don't like. Mind you, 99,99% of those people are absolutely peaceful.
I'm not supporting these idiots and their medieval beliefs and thought, and I agree this is completely ridiculous, but you guys should be a bit consistent. And the fact some extremists killed this ambassador doesn't mean all the protesters and protests are violent.
Where did I say that? Nobody seems to be saying anything of the sort.
The issue isn't that they are protesting, it is that they are getting violent and start to murder people.
Hell, they can protest till judgement day for all I care, but if they raise a fist, they cross the line. Nobody gets to enforce his opinion with his fists.
So, the argument is entirely consistent. The problem is the violence, not them protesting.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/15/1226474/762597-protest-turns-violent.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/15/1226474/786997-protest-involves-children.jpg)
