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Lance Armstrong to lose Titles, Banned - Page 41

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Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
October 10 2012 18:38 GMT
#801
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9YzclxcT0NHNHNQTUV4MkpSSWc/view?sle=true there's the summary of the evidence by USADA. I haven't read it yet myself, but I imagine it leaves little to the imagination and will confirm Armstrong's guilt for anyone as of yet unconvinced.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
schimmetje
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1104 Posts
October 10 2012 18:44 GMT
#802
Well as long as USADA's doing it for the good of the sport (lol) I guess they can give a few more press conferences and pat themselves on the back some more, but I do hope they have some actual evidence. And even then they're probably not going to surpass Armstrong's achievements out of the saddle.
Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw!
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
October 10 2012 18:55 GMT
#803
On October 11 2012 03:44 schimmetje wrote:
Well as long as USADA's doing it for the good of the sport (lol) I guess they can give a few more press conferences and pat themselves on the back some more, but I do hope they have some actual evidence. And even then they're probably not going to surpass Armstrong's achievements out of the saddle.

You can insult USADA and insinuate they are doing it out of spite, or you could read the evidence they have given in the link just above your post.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
October 10 2012 19:50 GMT
#804
It is fairly convincing evidence, unless you want to think it's all a huge conspiracy. No one that's been following this sport should be surprised though (although somewhat saddened). It's at a point where every big name in the past 20 years have a huge question mark above their achievements.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
schimmetje
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 20:30:22
October 10 2012 20:24 GMT
#805
On October 11 2012 03:55 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 03:44 schimmetje wrote:
Well as long as USADA's doing it for the good of the sport (lol) I guess they can give a few more press conferences and pat themselves on the back some more, but I do hope they have some actual evidence. And even then they're probably not going to surpass Armstrong's achievements out of the saddle.

You can insult USADA and insinuate they are doing it out of spite, or you could read the evidence they have given in the link just above your post.


Well you can choose to read that however you want I guess, I was more suggesting that they've dealt cycling yet another blow which it really didn't need, many years after the facts. You could wonder about the spite as well though (I personally like the "there's no statute of limitations because he was bad" section), considering how relentlessly this has been pursued outside of the regular protocols, but you clearly don't and that's fine.

It's also a rather large report, I'm impressed you yourself managed to read it all already, I didn't in the 6 minutes since that post and still haven't completely, but it seems to consist of a lot of testimony and a comparatively small scientific section. The amount of it all certainly raises questions however. And yet my point still stands.
Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw!
karazax
Profile Joined May 2010
United States3737 Posts
October 10 2012 21:24 GMT
#806
I read over that document and there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence and much of it does look suspicious, but there isn't much hard evidence. Here is one example of their evidence:

"Jonathan Vaughters also believed Armstrong was likely using EPO—there were some tell tale signs, such as Lance carrying around a thermos (It is necessary to keep EPO cool at all times to prevent it from spoiling. Thermoses were used by riders to keep EPO cool and ice cubes rattling inside a coffee thermos in the middle of the summer were an indication the rider might be using EPO.)"

Of course keeping a drink cold could also merit using a thermos...

There is alot of talk about how they could have provided more evidence via subpoena and other legal action if this went to trial, but most of their current evidence centers around the testimony of 9 people who were removed from Lance's team and/or caught for using performance enhancers by the USADA, or spouses of those people. Pretty much all of the evidence I read in that report revolves around them believing their witnesses who are telling them what they want to hear and Lance's involvement with a doctor who was charged with doping. USADA also said that they retested samples from Lance from way back in 1999 and found EPO, but admit that the evidence had a good chance of being inadmissable. They spend a whole page or two discussing Actovegin, which they concluded Armstrong was "definitely" using for performance enhancement, again based on ex-team testimony. Lance claimed the doctor had it to treat road rash injuries and not for performance enhancement, but USADA is convinced he lied. The kicker being that Actovegin isn't a banned substance in the first place. Because USADA is convinced Armstrong lied about what the Actovegin was used for, that is evidence that he is lying now. There is sworn testimony by people in Armstrong's camp proclaiming his innocence, and because USADA's witnesses contradict that, Armstrong's defenders are assumed to be lying.

Now that doesn't mean Armstrong is innocent, but the "over whelming" evidence is primarily testimony from former team mates and competitors, most of whom were caught with drugs, and their spouses, some of whom are hoping to make money by selling books based on the story they are telling.

On a side note, USADA has no connection with the US government, and this was an arbitration case, not a criminal case. From what I have heard USADA would have been them both prosecuting and ruling on the case that seems like they clearly already decided on. This wasn't a jury trial. Furthermore the doctor they tie Armstrong to had his conviction overturned, and the key witness against that doctor is one of the witnesses against Armstrong. That being said it was overturned due to statute of limitations, and the evidence against him was also suspicious, but again it was almost all witness testimony from an italian rider who was caught using drugs and said he got them from the doctor.


The evidence they have is highly suspicious and I can see why people would believe that all the smoke means there must have been a fire, even if they were never able to actually find that fire. Still that document is the equivalent of just hearing a prosecuting attourney's opening arguement. If you have ever had to serve in jury duty before, a trial can sound completely different after each lawyer presents their case. I can see why Lance might feel he was in a no win situation, if it is true that USADA was going to be the arbitrator in their own case against Armstrong, which is what I heard when the news was first announced.

It is also curious that someone who was so cautious that he managed to not get a postive test over the entire course of his career, would risk mentioning his drug use in front of the spouses of his team mates, or be trying to force teammates to dope when they were reluctant knowing that losing that team mate could mean they turn him in. I wouldn't be surprised if Armstrong was guilty, but I didn't see anything so convincing in that document as to say there is no doubt.
cari-kira
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany655 Posts
October 10 2012 21:27 GMT
#807
armstrong was a ruthless businessman that even used his cancer for his advantage (had been allowed to use testosteron because he lost 1 testicle while therapy). even most of the money of "lifestrong", his foundation against cancer, goes to armstrong commercial.
he lied over 15 years to an extent that every honest man would be ashamed of.
most drivers do admit that they have doped, but armstrong is suing and threatening everyone who has evidence of it.
what a stockpile of shit...
everyone who tries to defend him just READ the fucking report.
he was never the best driver. he was just the one with the most professional doping system to aid him.
his miraculous wins began after he joined US postal, before that he was just an average driver.
so stop the hero worshipping. he is no hero, he is exactly the opposite.
someone who abused the system in many ways to make a shit ton of money.
Live and let live
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22047 Posts
October 10 2012 21:35 GMT
#808
On October 11 2012 06:24 karazax wrote:
Snip

Just wanne respond to this without filling up the page


This is my problem with this entire fight against Armstrong. Since it started there has not been any show of actual evidence.
Its all based on the word of his ex-team mates who are convinced dopers. No solid evidence.

Now i haven't read the report myself but unless it actually comes with this evidence im standing by the point of innocent until proven guilty.
They can say they have solid evidence if it comes to trial but people have been asking for solid evidence for months now. Just show it if you have it because at this point im reasoning they dont.
They include the re-test of the 1999 as positive while actual experts (including the head of the anti-doping testing) as saying the sample results were impossible, yet they dont include there actual real stuff?

Just a load of useless slander for now.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
October 10 2012 21:36 GMT
#809
The "scientific evidence" section has like one bullet point...lol.

This would indicate either it is damn near impossible to actually prove or disprove the type of doping he was doing. Or he didnt, and instead managed to piss off enough of the people around him to an extent that they all wish to testify against him.
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22047 Posts
October 10 2012 21:41 GMT
#810
On October 11 2012 06:36 sheaRZerg wrote:
The "scientific evidence" section has like one bullet point...lol.

This would indicate either it is damn near impossible to actually prove or disprove the type of doping he was doing. Or he didnt, and instead managed to piss off enough of the people around him to an extent that they all wish to testify against him.


Arnt all those testifying caught dopers?
To many of em have the taint of "deals" attached to them
There is a reason you cant convict a criminal on witnesses/informants only.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nizaris
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 21:46:48
October 10 2012 21:43 GMT
#811
he probably was doping just too smart about it. or maybe he was a superhuman beating all the doped ppl, i wonder which one it is.

If they can't prove it with evidence he shouldn't be convicted that's bs. and the witch hunt seems really unnecessary.
GrapeApe
Profile Joined March 2011
1053 Posts
October 10 2012 21:54 GMT
#812
I think our time would be better served discussing which big name rider WASN'T doping at this time. Seriously, who the fuck cares? EVERYONE WAS DOING IT. Pack your shit up, get better testing, and move on...how about the USADA focuses more on stopping future doping in all sports instead of wasting time, money and manpower on Lance -.-
GOIMBA.com <--- eSports betting :)
SiroKO
Profile Joined February 2012
France721 Posts
October 10 2012 21:55 GMT
#813
It would be so funny if there was a cascading transfer, like 1st, 2nd, 3rd getting disqualified one after the other ;D
Our envy always last longer than the happiness of those we envy
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7310 Posts
October 10 2012 22:04 GMT
#814
On October 11 2012 06:41 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 06:36 sheaRZerg wrote:
The "scientific evidence" section has like one bullet point...lol.

This would indicate either it is damn near impossible to actually prove or disprove the type of doping he was doing. Or he didnt, and instead managed to piss off enough of the people around him to an extent that they all wish to testify against him.


Arnt all those testifying caught dopers?
To many of em have the taint of "deals" attached to them
There is a reason you cant convict a criminal on witnesses/informants only.



ya you can lol

Hello Mr. Sandusky.

Note: this has nothing to do with my opinion on lance, I figure he probably did it.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
mikedebo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada4341 Posts
October 10 2012 22:13 GMT
#815
Epic necro

User was warned for this post
I NEED A PHOTOSYNTHESIS! ||| 'airtoss' is an anagram of 'artosis' ||| SANGHOOOOOO ||| "No Korea? No problem. I have internet." -- Stardust
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 22:41:52
October 10 2012 22:22 GMT
#816
On October 11 2012 06:24 karazax wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I read over that document and there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence and much of it does look suspicious, but there isn't much hard evidence. Here is one example of their evidence:

"Jonathan Vaughters also believed Armstrong was likely using EPO—there were some tell tale signs, such as Lance carrying around a thermos (It is necessary to keep EPO cool at all times to prevent it from spoiling. Thermoses were used by riders to keep EPO cool and ice cubes rattling inside a coffee thermos in the middle of the summer were an indication the rider might be using EPO.)"

Of course keeping a drink cold could also merit using a thermos...

There is alot of talk about how they could have provided more evidence via subpoena and other legal action if this went to trial, but most of their current evidence centers around the testimony of 9 people who were removed from Lance's team and/or caught for using performance enhancers by the USADA, or spouses of those people. Pretty much all of the evidence I read in that report revolves around them believing their witnesses who are telling them what they want to hear and Lance's involvement with a doctor who was charged with doping. USADA also said that they retested samples from Lance from way back in 1999 and found EPO, but admit that the evidence had a good chance of being inadmissable. They spend a whole page or two discussing Actovegin, which they concluded Armstrong was "definitely" using for performance enhancement, again based on ex-team testimony. Lance claimed the doctor had it to treat road rash injuries and not for performance enhancement, but USADA is convinced he lied. The kicker being that Actovegin isn't a banned substance in the first place. Because USADA is convinced Armstrong lied about what the Actovegin was used for, that is evidence that he is lying now. There is sworn testimony by people in Armstrong's camp proclaiming his innocence, and because USADA's witnesses contradict that, Armstrong's defenders are assumed to be lying.

Now that doesn't mean Armstrong is innocent, but the "over whelming" evidence is primarily testimony from former team mates and competitors, most of whom were caught with drugs, and their spouses, some of whom are hoping to make money by selling books based on the story they are telling.

On a side note, USADA has no connection with the US government, and this was an arbitration case, not a criminal case. From what I have heard USADA would have been them both prosecuting and ruling on the case that seems like they clearly already decided on. This wasn't a jury trial. Furthermore the doctor they tie Armstrong to had his conviction overturned, and the key witness against that doctor is one of the witnesses against Armstrong. That being said it was overturned due to statute of limitations, and the evidence against him was also suspicious, but again it was almost all witness testimony from an italian rider who was caught using drugs and said he got them from the doctor.


The evidence they have is highly suspicious and I can see why people would believe that all the smoke means there must have been a fire, even if they were never able to actually find that fire. Still that document is the equivalent of just hearing a prosecuting attourney's opening arguement. If you have ever had to serve in jury duty before, a trial can sound completely different after each lawyer presents their case. I can see why Lance might feel he was in a no win situation, if it is true that USADA was going to be the arbitrator in their own case against Armstrong, which is what I heard when the news was first announced.

It is also curious that someone who was so cautious that he managed to not get a postive test over the entire course of his career, would risk mentioning his drug use in front of the spouses of his team mates, or be trying to force teammates to dope when they were reluctant knowing that losing that team mate could mean they turn him in. I wouldn't be surprised if Armstrong was guilty, but I didn't see anything so convincing in that document as to say there is no doubt.

You managed to gloss over about two dozen instances of people saying "I saw him use doping" to the one instance of "he had a thermos we used for EPO" and then concluded the evidence was only circumstancial?

On October 11 2012 06:43 Nizaris wrote:
he probably was doping just too smart about it. or maybe he was a superhuman beating all the doped ppl, i wonder which one it is.

If they can't prove it with evidence he shouldn't be convicted that's bs. and the witch hunt seems really unnecessary.

His doping was extremely obvious to anyone who cared to look and he basically bragged about it to anyone not of the media who cared to ask. The reason he wasn't caught was because of corruption of the cycling union and a set of good practices to avoid most drug tests. He was too important for the image of cycling and if he would have been implicated during his time of dominance cycling would have been (deservedly) dragged down with it. Nevertheless, there still was a lot of evidence and if you would have read the report you would have seen that dozens of people testified about him doping and that there were numerous positive tests, including a 1999 cortisoid positive, a 1999 EPO positive, a 2001 EPO positive and a 2009-10 blood passport 'positive'. You could get the death penalty for a case with half the evidence, why this absurd standard for cycling?

On October 11 2012 06:54 GrapeApe wrote:
I think our time would be better served discussing which big name rider WASN'T doping at this time. Seriously, who the fuck cares? EVERYONE WAS DOING IT. Pack your shit up, get better testing, and move on...how about the USADA focuses more on stopping future doping in all sports instead of wasting time, money and manpower on Lance -.-

WE MUST LOOK FORWARD, NOT BACKWARD.

One of the most important ways to scare the future generation away from doping is to go after successful dopers of the past and show that while you might be able to get some easy wins, you won't be able to enjoy the spoils of your victory for long. It's about the best thing you can do for your money if your goal is to discourage cheating.

And of course, not everyone was doing it and not everyone was doing it in the same amounts. Lance Armstrong is no more a great cyclist than someone who installed a motor into his bicycle to power up the mountains. It's essentially the same thing and maybe it requires skill in avoiding the tests, acquiring the best bikes and so forth, but don't tell me it's in any way about fair competition.

I agree we need better tests, but tests aren't useless and with some exceptions have proved to be important weapons in making the sport safer and fairer. They establish a line you can not cross for your doping use, and while maybe with clever masking techniques and newer products you can get away with some stuff, in reality it does make sure that the competition is not simply about who is willing to take the most risks with his health. Bjarne Riis in 1996 had 20% more red blood cells in his body than the generation of 1999, because of new doping limits, and therefore those in the latter group were a lot less likely to die in their sleep because of heart failure. And of course it limited how big of an advantage you could get in the race, which is not to say that cheating wasn't still the defining element in success for many riders of that period.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
October 10 2012 22:26 GMT
#817
On October 11 2012 06:43 Nizaris wrote:
he probably was doping just too smart about it. or maybe he was a superhuman beating all the doped ppl, i wonder which one it is.

If they can't prove it with evidence he shouldn't be convicted that's bs. and the witch hunt seems really unnecessary.

I really cannot understand this way of thinking. They have sufficient "evidence" to convict him in USADA and wether it would hold in another court is irrelevant. It is almost completely impossible to proove doping if the kinds of evidence against Lance is not enough!

The time between the dope happening and it being detectable is too long and that is a scientific issue. As it has been discussed before in this thread, not doing anything to stop doping is not an appreciable option, so it is just something you have to live with. Changing that will take many years of hard work and some luck!

Many would see it as completely inconcieveable if USADA just let the case slide with the amount of "proof" they have got. Not telling about it would completely ruin the USADA and it would be significantly more damage than what Tim Henmans massive FUD is doing.

The only real contention in the case is about jurisdiction and the stripping of titles. None of that has any bearing on the question of guilt. It is only a question of "punishment" from a symbolic point of view.
Repeat before me
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
October 11 2012 03:40 GMT
#818
Cycling is an easy target for anti-doping authorities. Meanwhile the big money-making sports go untouched. Just look at the NFL, it's ludicrous. They can parade Lance Armstrong around and claim they are tough on doping when in reality they are not.
armada[sb]
Profile Joined August 2011
United States432 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 09:36:38
October 11 2012 09:32 GMT
#819
On October 11 2012 12:40 J1.au wrote:
Cycling is an easy target for anti-doping authorities. Meanwhile the big money-making sports go untouched. Just look at the NFL, it's ludicrous. They can parade Lance Armstrong around and claim they are tough on doping when in reality they are not.


The NFL has been at the forefront of PED prevention/punishment since the late 70's. They're not afraid to punish big name players (Brian Cushing comes to mind). What makes you think they're using steroids other than the fact that those guys are jacked?

If you wanna rip on the MLB, go ahead, they were 30 years behind the NFL, and they're still trying to recover from the absurdity that was the MLB in the 80's and 90's.
#Hitpoint @ GameSurge (IDLE=BAN)
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
October 11 2012 09:41 GMT
#820
On October 11 2012 12:40 J1.au wrote:
Cycling is an easy target for anti-doping authorities. Meanwhile the big money-making sports go untouched. Just look at the NFL, it's ludicrous. They can parade Lance Armstrong around and claim they are tough on doping when in reality they are not.


You have to start somewhere. This is a good start. For one, the current pelotons are nowhere near as insane as the pelodons in the golden age of Armstrong et al.

If other sports want to be slow on the uptake, so be it. But it has to start somewhere.
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