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On July 13 2012 04:56 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 04:44 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 13 2012 04:39 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:[quote] As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. As a rational human being I believe that your point of view is barbaric, against reason, and evil. I don't believe in Christians like you. that's mean.  Also the whole ''as a Christian'' bit, is presumptuous. Plenty of Christians are not against gay marriage and plenty of Christian churches will wed homesexuals. ''As a fundamentalist Christian'' would be more accurate.
one doesn't have to be a fundamentalist christian to believe that gay-marriage is not ethical. and it is a minority of christians that support it and an even smaller minority of churches that will perform homosexual marriages. and i think his point was that his christianity is the reason he does not support it. now, i guess one could argue that christianity doesn't necessarily mean "no gay marriage" but at the same time, a lot of denominations, that is what it means. i don't think it's presumptuous to explain that your christianity is what makes you not support it. Not allowing homosexuals to marry cos you read it in a book once is mean. mmm... i suppose one could make that argument. in fact, i don't really have much to say against it. i mean, from my point of view, it's not mean (and it's not just cause of some book)... but i could be wrong. maybe it is just "a book" and maybe it is mean. but i think there is a difference between being intentionally mean and being unintentionally mean. if im being mean by not supporting gay marriage, than i guess im sorry for being mean.  i hope if i am that i learn someday and stop doing it. On July 13 2012 04:48 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Understood, but nowhere in the new testament does Christ ask that of you (I'm sure he appreciates the help tho judging). And the old book (lev?) with that one anti-homo command was written in a time when and place where the population was low and they were surrounded by enemies so they needed more babehs. Its also responsible for the whole pork shell fish whatever thing, as eating these things when not prepared in a sanitary manner or cooked throughly can make you sick or 'unclean'. (Josephs or Persian period no idea, I'm remembering this from a convo with some rel studies maj.) im not sure if i should respond because it's kind of off-topic i think, but i have two small problems: just because Christ didn't tell us specifically that a thing was wrong doesn't mean that the thing isn't wrong. and i tend to think it's more along the lines of: if he didn't tell us specifically that the old rules were not applicable, than they are still applicable. and the other problem i have is that i don't think that is what he meant by "judge not". Do you then also think we would stone people who work on the Sabbath? After all, the old rules apparently still apply. Also, my kid talked back to me today so I'll just go ahead and put him to death, since, y'know, that's what the bible tells me to do. well the stoning people to death thing can be reasonably assumed to have been covered by the "You who have not sinned, cast the first stone" story where he saved the prostitute. and also by the apostles picking wheat on the sabbath story. also, the story of him telling the pharisees "if it were the sabbath and your sheep fell in a ravine, would you not stoop to pick it up"
and the putting kids to death thing (imo) can be covered by the previous story, and by the "resist not the evil man" speech. also, the context of "dishonor your mother and father" was not "talking back" but rather more of a "abandoning them in their old age" kind of thing.
also: i am rather uncomfortable even talking about stoning people while discussing this topic. i once made a very stupid and hasty comparison while discussing a topic like this and was rightfully temp-banned for it.
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On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol.
Personally, I don't work on Sunday's. Never have and hopefully never will. If there were a debate on working on Sundays then I would put my 2 cents in and encourage my politicians etc etc etc.
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On July 13 2012 05:03 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
Agreed.
From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. Personally, I don't work on Sunday's. Never have and hopefully never will. If there were a debate on working on Sundays then I would put my 2 cents in and encourage my politicians etc etc etc.
So, then you actually DON'T have a problem with meddling in the lives of consenting adults, if your book seems to tell you to do so?
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On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol.
This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do.
This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard.
Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society.
The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude.
The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc.
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On July 13 2012 04:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:47 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 04:44 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 13 2012 04:39 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
Agreed.
From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. As a rational human being I believe that your point of view is barbaric, against reason, and evil. I don't believe in Christians like you. that's mean.  Also the whole ''as a Christian'' bit, is presumptuous. Plenty of Christians are not against gay marriage and plenty of Christian churches will wed homesexuals. ''As a fundamentalist Christian'' would be more accurate.
one doesn't have to be a fundamentalist christian to believe that gay-marriage is not ethical. and it is a minority of christians that support it and an even smaller minority of churches that will perform homosexual marriages. and i think his point was that his christianity is the reason he does not support it. now, i guess one could argue that christianity doesn't necessarily mean "no gay marriage" but at the same time, a lot of denominations, that is what it means. i don't think it's presumptuous to explain that your christianity is what makes you not support it. Not allowing homosexuals to marry cos you read it in a book once is mean. mmm... i suppose one could make that argument. in fact, i don't really have much to say against it. i mean, from my point of view, it's not mean (and it's not just cause of some book)... but i could be wrong. maybe it is just "a book" and maybe it is mean. but i think there is a difference between being intentionally mean and being unintentionally mean. if im being mean by not supporting gay marriage, than i guess im sorry for being mean.  i hope if i am that i learn someday and stop doing it. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:48 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Understood, but nowhere in the new testament does Christ ask that of you (I'm sure he appreciates the help tho judging). And the old book (lev?) with that one anti-homo command was written in a time when and place where the population was low and they were surrounded by enemies so they needed more babehs. Its also responsible for the whole pork shell fish whatever thing, as eating these things when not prepared in a sanitary manner or cooked throughly can make you sick or 'unclean'. (Josephs or Persian period no idea, I'm remembering this from a convo with some rel studies maj.) im not sure if i should respond because it's kind of off-topic i think, but i have two small problems: just because Christ didn't tell us specifically that a thing was wrong doesn't mean that the thing isn't wrong. and i tend to think it's more along the lines of: if he didn't tell us specifically that the old rules were not applicable, than they are still applicable. and the other problem i have is that i don't think that is what he meant by "judge not".
I dunno, I prefer the 10 commandments to the 613 Mitzvot.
"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. "
Colossians 2:13-14
Cant believe I'm writing this while tsl is on -.-
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On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
Agreed.
From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc.
What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that?
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On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Also: Show nested quote +Understood, but nowhere in the new testament does Christ ask that of you (I'm sure he appreciates the help tho judging). Choosing not to support something =/= judging.
Sorry sir, making a choice does not involve judgment.....my bad.
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On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:[quote] As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that?
It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness.
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On July 13 2012 05:12 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 04:44 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 13 2012 04:39 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:[quote] As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. As a rational human being I believe that your point of view is barbaric, against reason, and evil. I don't believe in Christians like you. that's mean.  Also the whole ''as a Christian'' bit, is presumptuous. Plenty of Christians are not against gay marriage and plenty of Christian churches will wed homesexuals. ''As a fundamentalist Christian'' would be more accurate.
one doesn't have to be a fundamentalist christian to believe that gay-marriage is not ethical. and it is a minority of christians that support it and an even smaller minority of churches that will perform homosexual marriages. and i think his point was that his christianity is the reason he does not support it. now, i guess one could argue that christianity doesn't necessarily mean "no gay marriage" but at the same time, a lot of denominations, that is what it means. i don't think it's presumptuous to explain that your christianity is what makes you not support it. Not allowing homosexuals to marry cos you read it in a book once is mean. mmm... i suppose one could make that argument. in fact, i don't really have much to say against it. i mean, from my point of view, it's not mean (and it's not just cause of some book)... but i could be wrong. maybe it is just "a book" and maybe it is mean. but i think there is a difference between being intentionally mean and being unintentionally mean. if im being mean by not supporting gay marriage, than i guess im sorry for being mean.  i hope if i am that i learn someday and stop doing it. On July 13 2012 04:48 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:On July 12 2012 23:30 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 22:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: i think Google needs to be less political. Agreed. From a business stand point, wouldn't it make more sense to remain neutral on polarizing subjects like this? I'm only one consumer, but I'm now considering changing to Bing and removing chrome. As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Understood, but nowhere in the new testament does Christ ask that of you (I'm sure he appreciates the help tho judging). And the old book (lev?) with that one anti-homo command was written in a time when and place where the population was low and they were surrounded by enemies so they needed more babehs. Its also responsible for the whole pork shell fish whatever thing, as eating these things when not prepared in a sanitary manner or cooked throughly can make you sick or 'unclean'. (Josephs or Persian period no idea, I'm remembering this from a convo with some rel studies maj.) im not sure if i should respond because it's kind of off-topic i think, but i have two small problems: just because Christ didn't tell us specifically that a thing was wrong doesn't mean that the thing isn't wrong. and i tend to think it's more along the lines of: if he didn't tell us specifically that the old rules were not applicable, than they are still applicable. and the other problem i have is that i don't think that is what he meant by "judge not". I dunno, I prefer the 10 commandments to the 613 Mitzvot's. "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. " Colossians 2:13-14 Cant believe I'm writing this while tsl is on -.- hmmm... that's a good point. a very good point. i have to be honest, that takes me a little off-guard. my immediate reaction is to say that this is Paul speaking, not Christ, but at the same time... that doesn't sound very good and actually makes me uncomfortable even suggesting it because then it does seem like cherry-picking (and heresy) for the sake of keeping an opinion i'm not even sure is valid.
:/
i'm gonna have to think about that one and get back to you. excellent point though.
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On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:[quote] Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness.
I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with.
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On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote: [quote]
As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products.
I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with.
You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not.
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On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote: [quote]
I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not.
That is an absolutely ridiculous line of argument considering they can't pass a test to get a drivers license.
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On July 13 2012 05:06 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:03 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote:On July 13 2012 04:04 MindBreaker wrote:On July 13 2012 03:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 12 2012 23:53 bblack wrote:[quote] As has been stated before, among young people (=most internet users, especially when looking ahead) people with anti-gay feeling as you are becoming more and more rare. So this stance should appeal to the majority of their possible users. Also, you would have to stop using your Android phone, Google, Chrome, Gmail, YouTube, Maps, Earth, etc.. Most people won't do that. People who are so undeveloped that they think gay marriage is a bad thing probably won't know all of these services belong to Google anyway, so they'll take even less losses. Besides, you can bet Google has considered the business standpoint, and disagrees with you  Wow! Google owns soooo much stuff. Anywho~ not really fair to label people who don't agree with gay marriage as "underdeveloped." There are a large number of people in this world who are well educated and hold power who don't support gay marriage. If it weren't so, then this wouldn't even be a debate. Let's not resort to name calling just because someone disagrees with us As a Christian I don't believe I'n same-sex marriage. According to the bible marriage Is a holy union between a man and a woman. That doesn't make me undeveloped. Anyways this won't make me stop using google products. I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. Personally, I don't work on Sunday's. Never have and hopefully never will. If there were a debate on working on Sundays then I would put my 2 cents in and encourage my politicians etc etc etc. So, then you actually DON'T have a problem with meddling in the lives of consenting adults, if your book seems to tell you to do so?
Sorry to disappoint, but there is no "aha gotcha!" moment here or in the future. Let me try to explain...
I have ideas and beliefs about what is best for our society and my/our(?) country. You have ideas and beliefs about what is best for our society and your/our(?) country. Those ideas and beliefs are not always the same. That doesn't make one or the other sub-human. You feel strongly enough about your particular beliefs on gay marriage to post your opinions on this forum. I do too. I believe that gay marriage has consequences that reach outside of the personal space of an individual couple. Speaking out in non-support of gay marriage isn't meddling in the personal lives of anyone, anymore than your support of gay marriage is meddling in my personal life. People are allowed to have opinions and beliefs. In a democratic society, people are allowed to persuade their elected officials and those around them to enact policies that align with their personal beliefs/ideas. I don't have to like your ideas, and you don't have to like mine. We should however be respectful of one another because anything less than that only heightens tensions and further divides us.
There really is no point to this "tit for tat" back and forth.
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On July 13 2012 05:21 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
I can only speak for myself but....
Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean.
Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not. That is an absolutely ridiculous line of argument considering they can't pass a test to get a drivers license.
My whole point is that we have a test in the first place. A drivers test unfairly excludes those who by no fault of their own, due to some physical condition are unable to pass. Yet we still have a test because making sure we have competent drivers is more important than preventing unfairness.
I think it is a bit amusing that people are so troubled by my pointing out how we are unfair in all sorts of ways.
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On July 13 2012 05:23 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:21 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote: [quote]
Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents.
Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not. That is an absolutely ridiculous line of argument considering they can't pass a test to get a drivers license. My whole point is that we have a test in the first place. A drivers test unfairly excludes those who by no fault of their own, due to some physical condition are unable to pass. Yet we still have a test because making sure we have competent drivers is more important than preventing unfairness. I think it is a bit amusing that people are so troubled by my pointing out how we are unfair in all sorts of ways.
What are you talking about? Driving is a privilege not a right, you cannot drive on public roads if you're going to endanger other people through incompetence that's not unfair in any manner whatsoever. If anything allowing blind people to drive would be unfair on the people they share the road with.
I'm sure we're unfair in many ways but that is one of them.
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On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:22 AdamBanks wrote: [quote]
I can deal with citing a 2000 year old book but please say what you mean. When you say you don't believe in gay marriage your wrong, cause I'm pretty sure it exist. I think what you mean to say is that gay marriage is not ethical? I'm not sure please clarify. I can only speak for myself but.... Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean. Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not.
I think the rule ''People that are competent drivers, should be allowed to operate a vehicle, and those that are not competent drivers, should not'' is a reasonable rule. It discriminates based on a reasoning process that is undeniably necessary.
Denying a group of people that logically cannot be competent, is fair in that it is consistent with this rule. If all the individuals in a group would be denied the right to drive for reasons other than competency, that would be unfair. FOr example Saudi-Arabian women.
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"When it comes to church and state, stay sep-a-rate"
A handy mnemonic for contemporary social issues.
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On July 13 2012 05:26 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:23 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:21 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person.
Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see.
And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other.
Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not. That is an absolutely ridiculous line of argument considering they can't pass a test to get a drivers license. My whole point is that we have a test in the first place. A drivers test unfairly excludes those who by no fault of their own, due to some physical condition are unable to pass. Yet we still have a test because making sure we have competent drivers is more important than preventing unfairness. I think it is a bit amusing that people are so troubled by my pointing out how we are unfair in all sorts of ways. What are you talking about? Driving is a privilege not a right, you cannot drive on public roads if you're going to endanger other people through incompetence that's not unfair in any manner whatsoever. If anything allowing blind people to drive would be unfair on the people they share the road with. I'm sure we're unfair in many ways but that is one of them.
This is some weird pretzel logic here. So it's not unfair to deny the privilege of driving to a blind person, even though it's not their fault, because they cannot pass a test which we have crafted, which is designed so that blind people cannot pass....
What is unfair then?
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On July 13 2012 05:33 BobbyT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:26 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 05:23 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:21 Elsid wrote:On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote: [quote]
Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking.
Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol.
This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not. That is an absolutely ridiculous line of argument considering they can't pass a test to get a drivers license. My whole point is that we have a test in the first place. A drivers test unfairly excludes those who by no fault of their own, due to some physical condition are unable to pass. Yet we still have a test because making sure we have competent drivers is more important than preventing unfairness. I think it is a bit amusing that people are so troubled by my pointing out how we are unfair in all sorts of ways. What are you talking about? Driving is a privilege not a right, you cannot drive on public roads if you're going to endanger other people through incompetence that's not unfair in any manner whatsoever. If anything allowing blind people to drive would be unfair on the people they share the road with. I'm sure we're unfair in many ways but that is one of them. This is some weird pretzel logic here. So it's not unfair to deny the privilege of driving to a blind person, even though it's not their fault, because they cannot pass a test which we have crafted, which is designed so that blind people cannot pass.... What is unfair then?
It'd be unfair if they could pass the test and drive fine and we still denied them driving privileges.
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On July 13 2012 05:27 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:19 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:17 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:16 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:14 Crushinator wrote:On July 13 2012 05:11 BobbyT wrote:On July 13 2012 05:00 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:56 Joedaddy wrote:On July 13 2012 04:47 Starshaped wrote:On July 13 2012 04:28 Joedaddy wrote: [quote]
I can only speak for myself but....
Obviously Gay marriage "exists," but as a Christian I believe that having physical/sexual relations with someone of the same sex is immoral, against God, and a sin. If you ever hear me say "I don't believe in gay marriage," that is what I mean.
Why is it a sin? As has been mentioned there are a fuckton of 'sins' in the bible and you're just cherry-picking. Homosexuality is just as much a 'sin' as working on the Sabbath or rebelling against your parents. Also, if your only justification for condemning gay marriage is "it's in the bible lul" then you must realize how little that means. Believe what you want, but don't meddle in the affairs of consenting adults who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Who's cherrypicking? I've never once said on these forums that "this" sin is greater than "that" sin. I've never once (and never will) say that I'm holier than thou, better than, or with less sin than a gay person. Gay marriage has implications that go beyond the personal bubble of the gay couple. I'm not meddling in any consenting adults' personal lives, but in a country where democracy is the order of the day, I have a right to encourage our elected officials to vote in a way that represents the America I want to see. And in a forum that promotes contrasting beliefs/ideas/opinions I think its safe for both sides of this debate, and every other debate, to share their thoughts with one another without belittling each other. Why don't you push for working on the Sabbath to be illegal then? Or any of the many sins of the bible we commit every single day? Maybe because the one about homosexuals is easy for you to go against... I don't see anyone doing this, so yes, it is cherry-picking. Again, you clearly are meddling in the lives of consenting adults when you want to take away their rights, lol. This is a common argument for gay marriage but it severely misses the point of what the gay marriage movement is trying to do. This is a debate about standards. Both sides want a different standard for what constitutes a valid marriage. Gay marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting adults, and traditional marriage activists want a standard that includes two consenting, one male and one female adults. The important thing to remember that BOTH sides want a standard. Standards are inherently unfair. But every society has standards for all sorts of behavior or allowable actions. Blind people or people with chronic seizures are not allowed a driving liscence. Color blind people are not allowed to be fighter pilots in the Air force. These are all unfair, but we want these standards because proper standards make for a better society. The debate about marriage is not about people "meddling" or "being unfair" with gays, both sides of the debate, by nature of wanting a standard for marriage at all are guilty of being unfair to some group or person to whom the standard will exclude. The real debate is about what standard forms the best society and why. People need to talk about that and not about this religious stuff, etc. What? Denying blind people a driver's license is unfair? They can't competently operate a vehicle, what is unfair about that? It's unfair because the vast majority of blind people have not chosen to be blind, were born that way, or had some unfortunate accident. They have done nothing, yet we deprive them of the same rights that we give to others. That is basically pure unfairness. I strongly disagree with the definition of fairness you seem to have come up with. You think that treating people differently based upon characteristics which they had no choice over is not unfair? I don't know what is unfair if that is not. I think the rule ''People that are competent drivers, should be allowed to operate a vehicle, and those that are not competent drivers, should not'' is a reasonable rule. It discriminates based on a reasoning process that is undeniably necessary. Denying a group of people that logically cannot be competent, is fair in that it is consistent with this rule. If all the individuals in a group would be denied the right to drive for reasons other than competency, that would be unfair. FOr example Saudi-Arabian women.
I agree it with you. It does indeed discriminate based on a reasoning process that is undeniably necessary. That makes it a good idea, but it doesnt make it a fair one.
Good standards do not automatically make for fair standards. I think you are equating the two for some reason.
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