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On September 11 2012 02:15 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +Obstruct and Exploit
Does anyone remember the American Jobs Act? A year ago President Obama proposed boosting the economy with a combination of tax cuts and spending increases, aimed in particular at sustaining state and local government employment. Independent analysts reacted favorably. For example, the consulting firm Macroeconomic Advisers estimated that the act would add 1.3 million jobs by the end of 2012.
There were good reasons for these positive assessments. Although you’d never know it from political debate, worldwide experience since the financial crisis struck in 2008 has overwhelmingly confirmed the proposition that fiscal policy “works,” that temporary increases in spending boost employment in a depressed economy (and that spending cuts increase unemployment). The Jobs Act would have been just what the doctor ordered.
But the bill went nowhere, of course, blocked by Republicans in Congress. And now, having prevented Mr. Obama from implementing any of his policies, those same Republicans are pointing to disappointing job numbers and declaring that the president’s policies have failed.
Think of it as a two-part strategy. First, obstruct any and all efforts to strengthen the economy, then exploit the economy’s weakness for political gain. If this strategy sounds cynical, that’s because it is. Yet it’s the G.O.P.’s best chance for victory in November.
But are Republicans really playing that cynical a game?
You could argue that we’re having a genuine debate about economic policy, in which Republicans sincerely believe that the things Mr. Obama proposes would actually hurt, not help, job creation. However, even if that were true, the fact is that the economy we have right now doesn’t reflect the policies the president wanted.
Anyway, do Republicans really believe that government spending is bad for the economy? No.
Right now Mitt Romney has an advertising blitz under way in which he attacks Mr. Obama for possible cuts in defense spending — cuts, by the way, that were mandated by an agreement forced on the president by House Republicans last year. And why is Mr. Romney denouncing these cuts? Because, he says, they would cost jobs!
This is classic “weaponized Keynesianism” — the claim that government spending can’t create jobs unless the money goes to defense contractors, in which case it’s the lifeblood of the economy. And no, it doesn’t make any sense.
What about the argument, which I hear all the time, that Mr. Obama should have fixed the economy long ago? The claim goes like this: during his first two years in office Mr. Obama had a majority in Congress that would have let him do anything he wanted, so he’s had his chance.
The short answer is, you’ve got to be kidding.
As anyone who was paying attention knows, the period during which Democrats controlled both houses of Congress was marked by unprecedented obstructionism in the Senate. The filibuster, formerly a tactic reserved for rare occasions, became standard operating procedure; in practice, it became impossible to pass anything without 60 votes. And Democrats had those 60 votes for only a few months. Should they have tried to push through a major new economic program during that narrow window? In retrospect, yes — but that doesn’t change the reality that for most of Mr. Obama’s time in office U.S. fiscal policy has been defined not by the president’s plans but by Republican stonewalling.
The most important consequence of that stonewalling, I’d argue, has been the failure to extend much-needed aid to state and local governments. Lacking that aid, these governments have been forced to lay off hundreds of thousands of schoolteachers and other workers, and those layoffs are a major reason the job numbers have been disappointing. Since bottoming out a year after Mr. Obama took office, private-sector employment has risen by 4.6 million; but government employment, which normally rises more or less in line with population growth, has instead fallen by 571,000.
Put it this way: When Republicans took control of the House, they declared that their economic philosophy was “cut and grow” — cut government, and the economy will prosper. And thanks to their scorched-earth tactics, we’ve actually had the cuts they wanted. But the promised growth has failed to materialize — and they want to make that failure Mr. Obama’s fault.
Now, all of this puts the White House in a difficult bind. Making a big deal of Republican obstructionism could all too easily come across as whining. Yet this obstructionism is real, and arguably is the biggest single reason for our ongoing economic weakness.
And what happens if the strategy of obstruct-and-exploit succeeds? Is this the shape of politics to come? If so, America will have gone a long way toward becoming an ungovernable banana republic. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/opinion/krugman-obstruct-and-exploit.html?_r=1
I translate to NewsAlert on FoX :
Liberal poster boy Krugman calls America " an ungovernable banana republic" because Republicans don't support socialist policies of Obama, who wants to weaken our troops.
Though I agree with the harsh criticism from the (more) conservative posters that Obama failed to "lead" and communicate his policies.
On the other hand, thinking about the hyper partisan media I see the bittersweet irony in that statement.
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Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0?
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On September 11 2012 02:21 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 10 2012 21:04 paralleluniverse wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/romney-says-keep-parts-obama-healthcare-law-155146420.htmlSo Romney flip-flops on Obamacare again, saying that he would keep some provisions that he likes, for example, coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. No doubt he's cynical enough to flip-flop on this given that virtually all the provisions of Obamacare have overwhelming popular support apart from the mandate. I had this covered all the way back on page 128: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=128#2553And as I said then, it's not possible to cover pre-existing conditions without a mandate because of adverse selection, i.e. people waiting until they are sick to get coverage, because they can't be denied, driving up the price of healthcare for everyone.Of course, Romney knows this, that's why Romneycare has a mandate, because that's what Jonathan Gruber, the man who designed Romneycare told him. Yes, Romney is a flip-flopping and lying hypocrite. Don't take it from me: here's what Gruber, the architect of Romneycare and Obamacare had to say: How much would the price of insurance (I assume you mean insurance, not healthcare) go up by? 2%, 5%, 10%? The majority of Americans have health insurance and the majority that don't do not have expensive pre-existing conditions. I'd be interested to know what a good estimate on costs would be, rather than rhetorical "costs would skyrocket". I don't think you can ignore the whole Federal government chipping in for Romneycare factor. If the cost goes down then the cost / benefit looks better - a trick the Federal government can't repeat with Obamacare. Gruber again (see Table 1): $1944 per year, which is 45%. http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMp1013067
Thanks, but that's not what I was asking. This is just showing how much healthy people will be on net subsidizing the sick. What I'm interested in is, absent the mandate, how much insurance rates would increase.
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On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0?
Are you actually serious, or the worlds biggest troll? There are 50 million things wrong with everything you are saying, but most sane people can point them out so I wont go into detail about it. Do you actually believe all of what you say, or is it satire? I want to know before I waste time posting about your mistakes.
User was warned for this post
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The word you are looking for is reform, not end the welfare state. Nobody but lunatic fringe free marketers want that.
Promoting gun rights, re-instate freedom of speech?
Get a grip on reality already.
//edit: or stop trolling.
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On September 11 2012 02:21 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 10 2012 21:04 paralleluniverse wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/romney-says-keep-parts-obama-healthcare-law-155146420.htmlSo Romney flip-flops on Obamacare again, saying that he would keep some provisions that he likes, for example, coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. No doubt he's cynical enough to flip-flop on this given that virtually all the provisions of Obamacare have overwhelming popular support apart from the mandate. I had this covered all the way back on page 128: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=128#2553And as I said then, it's not possible to cover pre-existing conditions without a mandate because of adverse selection, i.e. people waiting until they are sick to get coverage, because they can't be denied, driving up the price of healthcare for everyone.Of course, Romney knows this, that's why Romneycare has a mandate, because that's what Jonathan Gruber, the man who designed Romneycare told him. Yes, Romney is a flip-flopping and lying hypocrite. Don't take it from me: here's what Gruber, the architect of Romneycare and Obamacare had to say: How much would the price of insurance (I assume you mean insurance, not healthcare) go up by? 2%, 5%, 10%? The majority of Americans have health insurance and the majority that don't do not have expensive pre-existing conditions. I'd be interested to know what a good estimate on costs would be, rather than rhetorical "costs would skyrocket". The point is that if an insurance company can no longer refuse someone with a pre-existing condition and you don't automatically have to buy insurance, what's stopping you and everyone else from only purchasing assurance when you get sick and dropping your coverage once you get better?
If someone was really set on playing that arbitrage game the mandate in Obamacare wouldn't stop them either. It is too weak.
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United States43316 Posts
On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0?
"far-left by normal standards"
Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism.
You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim.
I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s.
I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes.
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On September 11 2012 02:37 Doublemint wrote:
The word you are looking for is reform, not end the welfare state. Nobody but lunatic fringe free marketers want that.
Promoting gun rights, re-instate freedom of speech?
Get a grip on reality already.
//edit: or stop trolling.
Trolling? I'm trying to have a civilized and rational debate with you, there's no need to start name-calling.
That's what I said, they're not doing anything to end the welfare state, the welfare state still exists and the so-called "European right-wingers" are too far-left to do anything about it; they're too afraid that if they get rid of the welfare state that the welfare-dependents won't vote for them.
Most of the so-called "right-wing" European parties don't do anything to meaningfully repeal the left's draconian gun control laws. Additionally, people are arrested in Europe all of the time for having "unpopular" or "politically incorrect" opinions; you don't value freedom of speech like Americans do (no offense, it's just a fact). Many of the so-called "right-wing" parties haven't done anything to stop the government from arresting people for expressing their views in a non-violent manner.
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On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes.
Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way.
Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted.
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On September 11 2012 02:45 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:37 Doublemint wrote:
The word you are looking for is reform, not end the welfare state. Nobody but lunatic fringe free marketers want that.
Promoting gun rights, re-instate freedom of speech?
Get a grip on reality already.
//edit: or stop trolling. Trolling? I'm trying to have a civilized and rational debate with you, there's no need to start name-calling. That's what I said, they're not doing anything to end the welfare state, the welfare state still exists and the so-called "European right-wingers" are too far-left to do anything about it; they're too afraid that if they get rid of the welfare state that the welfare-dependents won't vote for them. Most of the so-called "right-wing" European parties don't do anything to meaningfully repeal the left's draconian gun control laws. Additionally, people are arrested in Europe all of the time for having "unpopular" or "politically incorrect" opinions; you don't value freedom of speech like Americans do (no offense, it's just a fact). Many of the so-called "right-wing" parties haven't done anything to stop the government from arresting people for expressing their views in a non-violent manner.
That would imply you are making rational arguments in the first place.
Examples please. The only major limitation to freedom of speech and where people actually go to jail is if they promote national socialism and declare themselves neo-nazis. That's historically been the case for Germany and Austria.
Still lacking examples, and therefore basis and rationality of your arguments.
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United States43316 Posts
On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted.
As I said earlier, Labour symbolically rejected socialism and spent their tenure in Government from 97 to 09 privatising previously national businesses. Huge swathes of previously national industries have been sold off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_privatizations#United_Kingdom
I didn't say we're a complete free market state, you said that Europe was slipping towards socialism. You are the one who has stated a premise here, all I have done is pointed out that a) we were socialist and b) the direction we're moving is away from that. What you said is simply wrong. End of.
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On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted.
If I were you I'd start by actually looking up socialism on wikipedia so you have an understanding of the concept beyond the interpretation republican leadership chooses to give to it. Gun control has nothing to do with the classic left-right divide to begin with.
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On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted.
You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't).
Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today.
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On September 11 2012 02:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. As I said earlier, Labour symbolically rejected socialism and spent their tenure in Government from 97 to 09 privatising previously national businesses. Huge swathes of previously national industries have been sold off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_privatizations#United_KingdomI didn't say we're a complete free market state, you said that Europe was slipping towards socialism. You are the one who has stated a premise here, all I have done is pointed out that a) we were socialist and b) the direction we're moving is away from that. What you said is simply wrong. End of.
Thank you for providing sources, albeit Wikipedia source. I was already aware of the Labour Party revising their platform in the 1990s to remove the term "socialist." And you're right about one thing, the term "socialism" is beginning to have a bad name in Europe, so they're trying to call it"social democracy" now. Social democracy is a branch of socialism that was created because they realized that pure socialism couldn't work, so they tried watering it down a bit, but it's stills far-left socialism, the only difference is the degree.
On September 11 2012 02:35 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? Are you actually serious, or the worlds biggest troll? There are 50 million things wrong with everything you are saying, but most sane people can point them out so I wont go into detail about it. Do you actually believe all of what you say, or is it satire? I want to know before I waste time posting about your mistakes. User was warned for this post
Please, point out these alleged "incorrect" statements, and I will be more than happy to have a civilized discussion with you.
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United States43316 Posts
On September 11 2012 03:25 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:58 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. As I said earlier, Labour symbolically rejected socialism and spent their tenure in Government from 97 to 09 privatising previously national businesses. Huge swathes of previously national industries have been sold off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_privatizations#United_KingdomI didn't say we're a complete free market state, you said that Europe was slipping towards socialism. You are the one who has stated a premise here, all I have done is pointed out that a) we were socialist and b) the direction we're moving is away from that. What you said is simply wrong. End of. Thank you for providing sources, albeit Wikipedia source. I was already aware of the Labour Party revising their platform in the 1990s to remove the term "socialist." And you're right about one thing, the term "socialism" is beginning to have a bad name in Europe, so they're trying to call it"social democracy" now. Social democracy is a branch of socialism that was created because they realized that pure socialism couldn't work, so they tried watering it down a bit, but it's stills far-left socialism, the only difference is the degree. Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:35 Focuspants wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? Are you actually serious, or the worlds biggest troll? There are 50 million things wrong with everything you are saying, but most sane people can point them out so I wont go into detail about it. Do you actually believe all of what you say, or is it satire? I want to know before I waste time posting about your mistakes. User was warned for this post Please, point out these alleged "incorrect" statements, and I will be more than happy to have a civilized discussion with you.
You have already conceded that your statements about Europe becoming more socialist were wrong in a PM to me so I have absolutely no clue why you're still trying to defend them in the topic.
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On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today.
Ah, I see what you're saying, but one could just as easily look to the recent success of far-left organizations like RESPECT in the UK, Die Linke in Germany, and the Left Front (or even the Socialist Party) in France as evidence that they are moving further away from capitalism and further towards socialism.
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There is not really demand for concealed carry. Most people I know, if they have got guns, they need a licence for it and have it stored at a safe location in their house. And they would disagree that it makes them feel safer to carry them in public. Being a gunslinger is something for cowboy movies and won't prevent crime nor save lives.
And you read that there was good reason to arrest those people in the examples provided by you. Having hateful and abhorrent opinions without basis is not being tolerated.
So yes, in some way there is a limit to free speech. Though it neither has got anything to do with "socialism" nor does it hinder democracy.
2 of them fall into the category described in my post - the one denying the holocaust in Germany and Gottfried Küssel is a well known Neo-Nazi in Austria.
/edit: this explains it better than I could.
"The right to freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the ICCPR states that "[e]veryone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". Article 19 goes on to say that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
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United States43316 Posts
On September 11 2012 03:28 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, I see what you're saying, but one could just as easily look to the recent success of far-left organizations like RESPECT in the UK, Die Linke in Germany, and the Left Front (or even the Socialist Party) in France as evidence that they are moving further away from capitalism and further towards socialism.
Which success of Respect? Conservatives defeated Labour in the general election and your conclusion from this is that it's slipping left because of one of the least relevant political parties ever to exist.
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On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today.
Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees.
Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest."
With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees."
Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane.
EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal.
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