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If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments?
Belarus
Communist Party of Belarus - 8 Lower House Seats
Czech Republic
Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia - 2 Upper House Seats - 26 Lower House Seats - 4 EU Seats
France
French Communist Party - 20 Upper House Seats - 10 Lower House Seats - 2 EU Seats
Communist Party of Réunion - 1 Lower House Seat
Germany
Die Linke - 76 Lower House Seats - 178 State Seats - 8 EU Seats
German Communist Party - 1 State Seat
Greece
Communist Party of Greece - 12 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Kazakhstan
Communist People's Party of Kazakhstan - 7 Lower House Seats
Luxembourg
The Left - 1 Seat
Moldova
Party of Communists of the Republic of Moldova - 39 Seats
Portugal
Portuguese Communist Party - 14 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Russia
Communist Party of Russia - 92 Lower House Seats
San Marino
United Left - 5 Seats
South Ossetia
Communist Party of South Ossetia - 8 Seats
Spain
United Left - 2 Upper House Seats - 11 Lower House Seats - 1 EU Seat
Transnistria
Pridnestrovie Communist Party - 1 Seat
Ukraine
Communist Party of Ukraine - 27 Seats
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On September 11 2012 04:51 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
But if we have universal healthcare, we don't really want to have to pay the prohibitively expensive medical bills for an addict who has fucked up their body, do we? Well, "we" want to pay for people who smoke and get lung cancer. "We" want to pay for poeple who ride motorcycles without helmets. "We" want to pay for people who eat horrible diets and become grossly obese. And of course "we" also want to pay for treatment for every innocent bystander who gets shot in a gang war over drug turf. So I don't see how paying for drug users' self-induced illnesses is any different.
I don't want to pay for people who smoke or eat incredibly shitty, so you're just putting words in my mouth there. I'd like to see a tier system where people who were clearly in terribad shape had to pay more for insurance and people in better shape paid less.
The last example of the innocent bystander is very different from the other ones. The first ones were problems based on conscious choice, the bystander was just unlucky to be there.
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Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on.
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United States41937 Posts
On September 11 2012 05:05 NonCorporeal wrote:
If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments?
Who are you trying to argue against? Who said Europe was so right wing? What are you arguing against? What point do you think you're making? What's wrong with you?
Do you understand how different electoral systems work? That under PR systems it's inevitable that some minority parties which also exist in the US would have seats where they wouldn't under FPTP (like the US) systems. That it's a reflection on the electoral system rather than the society. If 1% of the society are communists in a FPTP system they'll have 0% of seats whereas in a PR system they'll have 1% of seats.
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On September 11 2012 05:05 NonCorporeal wrote:If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments? + Show Spoiler +
Belarus
Communist Party of Belarus - 8 Lower House Seats
Czech Republic
Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia - 2 Upper House Seats - 26 Lower House Seats - 4 EU Seats
France
French Communist Party - 20 Upper House Seats - 10 Lower House Seats - 2 EU Seats
Communist Party of Réunion - 1 Lower House Seat
Germany
Die Linke - 76 Lower House Seats - 178 State Seats - 8 EU Seats
German Communist Party - 1 State Seat
Greece
Communist Party of Greece - 12 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Kazakhstan
Communist People's Party of Kazakhstan - 7 Lower House Seats
Luxembourg
The Left - 1 Seat
Moldova
Party of Communists of the Republic of Moldova - 39 Seats
Portugal
Portuguese Communist Party - 14 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Russia
Communist Party of Russia - 92 Lower House Seats
San Marino
United Left - 5 Seats
South Ossetia
Communist Party of South Ossetia - 8 Seats
Spain
United Left - 2 Upper House Seats - 11 Lower House Seats - 1 EU Seat
Transnistria
Pridnestrovie Communist Party - 1 Seat
Ukraine
Communist Party of Ukraine - 27 Seats
Yes our dear European Comrades from Russia,Transnistria,Kazakhstan,Belarus,Ukraine and Moldova, South Ossetia.
Now it's no denying it anymore I guess...
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On September 11 2012 05:12 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:05 NonCorporeal wrote:
If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments?
Belarus
Communist Party of Belarus - 8 Lower House Seats
Czech Republic
Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia - 2 Upper House Seats - 26 Lower House Seats - 4 EU Seats
France
French Communist Party - 20 Upper House Seats - 10 Lower House Seats - 2 EU Seats
Communist Party of Réunion - 1 Lower House Seat
Germany
Die Linke - 76 Lower House Seats - 178 State Seats - 8 EU Seats
German Communist Party - 1 State Seat
Greece
Communist Party of Greece - 12 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Kazakhstan
Communist People's Party of Kazakhstan - 7 Lower House Seats
Luxembourg
The Left - 1 Seat
Moldova
Party of Communists of the Republic of Moldova - 39 Seats
Portugal
Portuguese Communist Party - 14 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Russia
Communist Party of Russia - 92 Lower House Seats
San Marino
United Left - 5 Seats
South Ossetia
Communist Party of South Ossetia - 8 Seats
Spain
United Left - 2 Upper House Seats - 11 Lower House Seats - 1 EU Seat
Transnistria
Pridnestrovie Communist Party - 1 Seat
Ukraine
Communist Party of Ukraine - 27 Seats Yes our dear European Comrades from Russia,Transnistria,Kazakhstan,Belarus,Ukraine and Moldova, South Ossetia. Now it's no denying it anymore I guess...
I did a double take when I read your post. He really did include Kazakhstan. Wow.
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On September 11 2012 04:56 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees. Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest." With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees." Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane. EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal. To be very clear as well, Noncorporeal is about as wrong as he could possibly be and the ignorance reflected in his posts so far (as well as his staggering ability to ignore counterpoints or demands for sources) is pissing people off quite badly. Now to be even more precise, by the ludicrous standard of "gun-control" or "right to bear arms" (both things which are culturally VERY different in Europe) we do not have ANY division among our parties, so everyone including the most radically right parties must be socialists! Do you realise how silly that sounds? Not a single party in Austria is advocating looser gun control. There is no demand for it. Considering your previously well defined Republican bias, I'll ignore your statement about Obamas intentions, wether he truly wants that or not, is not something I'm willing to judge, but implying that Europe is moving towards socialism shows hilarious ignorance at best if it isn't a cheap troll. Regarding Freedom of speech, we (as in Austria and Germany) have by consensus restricted ourselves in regards to Nazis and Neo-Nazis, that might be an infringement of this article, but considering what happened half a century ago, I can happily live with that restriction. As a point of note, when your personal Freedom of speech infringes on hate-crimes and racism (as was the case with Herr Küssler) you should be facing trial in any democracy.
Looks like you were wrong about Austria. Freedom isn't a "cultural" thing, gun rights are a fundamental right that all free humans have, our rights come from nature, not from the government.
An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights, that includes people who have unpopular opinions. What is a "hate crime?" Seriously, why should "hate crimes" even exist? If you're doing something that is already illegal, then why do you need to make it a "hate crime?" If someone slits a black person's throat, why should it matter if said person did it because he was black or not? Why should that have any impact whatsoever on the law?
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Isn't most of those numbers due to the fact that most european countries have more than two options when voting? In sweden there's, i think, 8 parties total from about 5% of votes lowest up to about 30+% for the biggest.
On September 11 2012 05:15 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:56 Tula wrote:On September 11 2012 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees. Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest." With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees." Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane. EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal. To be very clear as well, Noncorporeal is about as wrong as he could possibly be and the ignorance reflected in his posts so far (as well as his staggering ability to ignore counterpoints or demands for sources) is pissing people off quite badly. Now to be even more precise, by the ludicrous standard of "gun-control" or "right to bear arms" (both things which are culturally VERY different in Europe) we do not have ANY division among our parties, so everyone including the most radically right parties must be socialists! Do you realise how silly that sounds? Not a single party in Austria is advocating looser gun control. There is no demand for it. Considering your previously well defined Republican bias, I'll ignore your statement about Obamas intentions, wether he truly wants that or not, is not something I'm willing to judge, but implying that Europe is moving towards socialism shows hilarious ignorance at best if it isn't a cheap troll. Regarding Freedom of speech, we (as in Austria and Germany) have by consensus restricted ourselves in regards to Nazis and Neo-Nazis, that might be an infringement of this article, but considering what happened half a century ago, I can happily live with that restriction. As a point of note, when your personal Freedom of speech infringes on hate-crimes and racism (as was the case with Herr Küssler) you should be facing trial in any democracy. Looks like you were wrong about Austria. Freedom isn't a "cultural" thing, gun rights are a fundamental right that all free humans have, our rights come from nature, not from the government. What is a "hate crime?" Seriously, why should "hate crimes" even exist? If you're doing something that is already illegal, then why do you need to make it a "hate crime?" If someone slits a black person's throat, why should it matter if said person did it because he was black or not? Why should that have any impact whatsoever on the law?
Gun rights is a non issue in most of europe as people seem to heavily prefer not owning guns or carrying, i think people overall are very much against guns at all. I think most europe doesn't consider guns to be a holy right that must never be suppresed.
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On September 11 2012 05:06 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:51 ziggurat wrote:On September 11 2012 04:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
But if we have universal healthcare, we don't really want to have to pay the prohibitively expensive medical bills for an addict who has fucked up their body, do we? Well, "we" want to pay for people who smoke and get lung cancer. "We" want to pay for poeple who ride motorcycles without helmets. "We" want to pay for people who eat horrible diets and become grossly obese. And of course "we" also want to pay for treatment for every innocent bystander who gets shot in a gang war over drug turf. So I don't see how paying for drug users' self-induced illnesses is any different. I don't want to pay for people who smoke or eat incredibly shitty, so you're just putting words in my mouth there. I'd like to see a tier system where people who were clearly in terribad shape had to pay more for insurance and people in better shape paid less. The last example of the innocent bystander is very different from the other ones. The first ones were problems based on conscious choice, the bystander was just unlucky to be there.
I was putting "we" in quotes because I do not want to have any kind of government-run health care system. But apparently a lot of american voters want this.
In Canada we have socialized medicine and everyone who gets sick or injured gets their care paid for by the state regardless of how they came to be sick or injured.
Under Obamacare it will be the same thing as I understand it. I believe that insurers will at least charge higher premiums for cigarette smokers, and they could do the same for marijuana users. In fact, they probably already do. I'm pretty sure that when I got life insurance (in Canada) I was asked if I used any illegal drugs.
So I don't really understand how your point relates to the "war on drugs". Are you saying that having universal health care means that we need to continue to outlaw marijuana? If so I'm not following you.
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On September 11 2012 05:08 Tula wrote:
Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on.
Your "EU conservatives" aren't conservative, they're social democrats (socialists). Because if someone agrees with you that automatically makes you right, regardless of the facts? If Europe is moving further to the right, then why have recent elections in Europe shown a re-election of left-wing parties, such as in France?
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On September 11 2012 05:18 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:08 Tula wrote:
Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on. Your "EU conservatives" aren't conservative, they're social democrats (socialists) who don't represent free market values. Because if someone agrees with you that automatically makes you right, regardless of the facts? If Europe is moving further to the right, then why have recent elections in Europe shown a re-election of left-wing parties, such as in France?
Our swedish right wing politicians have promoted private schools, a lowered support for union driven welfare, they've outsourced pharmacies to private businesses, and they've made tax cuts. You just have a very skewed image of what makes someone a conservative, EVERY politician and party in the world beside the US republican party is socialist if you go by your fox news standard.
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Reading through these posts I'm having a hard time figuring out why people are arguing this with KwarK, although I am one of them lefty Europeans. I realise that in the US, especially in certain circles, socialism and liberal are dirty words. This was evident when Obama was termed, confusingly, as both a socialist and a Nazi by various demonstrators and conservative commentators. It amazes me that anyone would need to have it pointed out, but he's neither - not that I'm saying people here are needing this distinction to be made. But the point remains that Socialist and left-wing seem to be automatically bad things, and automatically the same thing. As KwarK pointed out, they're aren't, despite the fact that you are constantly told these things by certain parts of your media.
Fact is, the US is very right compared to Europe. Which kinda means that your conservatives are waaaaaay to the right, and your democrats are more towards the centre. By European standards, they are not socialist. Trust me, we actually have socialists here. We know what they look like.
I would also like to point out that Europe is not a homogenous state. We do not all follow the same politics, we do not have the same political parties or aims. We are all separate countries with our own ways of doing politics. Yes, some countries are actually socialistic in their political outlook (I would like to point out that in many ways, their quality of life is better than it is in the US for the majority of their citizens, with better access to healthcare, education, jobs etc. They pay for this in higher taxes, which they seem to not mind). Most of Europe has socialist parties in some form or another. In some countries they are even in power. Europeans tend to see them as a valid political choice. But, quite frankly, they are just like any other political party across the spectrum - liable to disappoint and promise too much, they stay in power for a while until they piss off enough people and the opposition parties get their chance. IMO one of the main reasons Labour were in power for so long was because Blair's New Labour was right of what they traditionally had been, meaning they took a lot of the voting base that traditionally voted Tory. In other words, they moved right, and the UK liked it as a whole. Is this an example of Europe becoming more socialist?
Now, the European Union does exist, and many of the countries of Europe belong to this Union. Is this what you mean by Europe? Yet many countries in Europe aren't part of this, and others who are tend to resist many parts of the laws they put out - the UK is a big example of this, we tend to be a bit jingoistic towards Europe, especially with the Tories in power (those guys who were voted into power, who are certainly not socialist - in what way is Europe becoming more socialist?).
Honestly, it seems that you're arguing using terms that don't really mean what you think they are, or what you have been told by parts of the US media. It's fun to throw terms around but unless you really know what they mean and you start misapplying them, you will be called on it. TL is a great forum with a large number of nationalities represented. Please be careful - Europe isn't just a test case to be compared with the US, it's a real place where a lot of us are from. We care when our home is misrepresented, just as you do.
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On September 11 2012 05:15 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:56 Tula wrote:On September 11 2012 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees. Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest." With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees." Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane. EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal. To be very clear as well, Noncorporeal is about as wrong as he could possibly be and the ignorance reflected in his posts so far (as well as his staggering ability to ignore counterpoints or demands for sources) is pissing people off quite badly. Now to be even more precise, by the ludicrous standard of "gun-control" or "right to bear arms" (both things which are culturally VERY different in Europe) we do not have ANY division among our parties, so everyone including the most radically right parties must be socialists! Do you realise how silly that sounds? Not a single party in Austria is advocating looser gun control. There is no demand for it. Considering your previously well defined Republican bias, I'll ignore your statement about Obamas intentions, wether he truly wants that or not, is not something I'm willing to judge, but implying that Europe is moving towards socialism shows hilarious ignorance at best if it isn't a cheap troll. Regarding Freedom of speech, we (as in Austria and Germany) have by consensus restricted ourselves in regards to Nazis and Neo-Nazis, that might be an infringement of this article, but considering what happened half a century ago, I can happily live with that restriction. As a point of note, when your personal Freedom of speech infringes on hate-crimes and racism (as was the case with Herr Küssler) you should be facing trial in any democracy. Looks like you were wrong about Austria. Freedom isn't a "cultural" thing, gun rights are a fundamental right that all free humans have, our rights come from nature, not from the government. An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights, that includes people who have unpopular opinions. What is a "hate crime?" Seriously, why should "hate crimes" even exist? If you're doing something that is already illegal, then why do you need to make it a "hate crime?" If someone slits a black person's throat, why should it matter if said person did it because he was black or not? Why should that have any impact whatsoever on the law?
The additional criminal component of a hate crime is not simply hatred itself, but the chilling effect it has on the freedom of members of a minority group. An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights.
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On September 11 2012 05:23 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:18 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 05:08 Tula wrote:
Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on. Your "EU conservatives" aren't conservative, they're social democrats (socialists) who don't represent free market values. Because if someone agrees with you that automatically makes you right, regardless of the facts? If Europe is moving further to the right, then why have recent elections in Europe shown a re-election of left-wing parties, such as in France? Our swedish right wing politicians have promoted private schools, a lowered support for union driven welfare, they've outsourced pharmacies to private businesses, and they've made tax cuts. You just have a very skewed image of what makes someone a conservative, EVERY politician and party in the world beside the US republican party is socialist if you go by your fox news standard.
I just love how you European lefties love to accuse anyone who supports capitalism of "being a Fox News slave." As another poster in this thread said, most economies in first world countries are mixed; but some are far more socialist than others (for instance EU countries are more socialist than America).
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On September 11 2012 05:13 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:12 Doublemint wrote:On September 11 2012 05:05 NonCorporeal wrote:
If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments?
Belarus
Communist Party of Belarus - 8 Lower House Seats
Czech Republic
Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia - 2 Upper House Seats - 26 Lower House Seats - 4 EU Seats
France
French Communist Party - 20 Upper House Seats - 10 Lower House Seats - 2 EU Seats
Communist Party of Réunion - 1 Lower House Seat
Germany
Die Linke - 76 Lower House Seats - 178 State Seats - 8 EU Seats
German Communist Party - 1 State Seat
Greece
Communist Party of Greece - 12 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Kazakhstan
Communist People's Party of Kazakhstan - 7 Lower House Seats
Luxembourg
The Left - 1 Seat
Moldova
Party of Communists of the Republic of Moldova - 39 Seats
Portugal
Portuguese Communist Party - 14 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Russia
Communist Party of Russia - 92 Lower House Seats
San Marino
United Left - 5 Seats
South Ossetia
Communist Party of South Ossetia - 8 Seats
Spain
United Left - 2 Upper House Seats - 11 Lower House Seats - 1 EU Seat
Transnistria
Pridnestrovie Communist Party - 1 Seat
Ukraine
Communist Party of Ukraine - 27 Seats Yes our dear European Comrades from Russia,Transnistria,Kazakhstan,Belarus,Ukraine and Moldova, South Ossetia. Now it's no denying it anymore I guess... I did a double take when I read your post. He really did include Kazakhstan. Wow.
Hopefully he didn't say "China : A full communist european government", we are lucky and there's some hope !
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On September 11 2012 05:27 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:23 karpo wrote:On September 11 2012 05:18 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 05:08 Tula wrote:
Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on. Your "EU conservatives" aren't conservative, they're social democrats (socialists) who don't represent free market values. Because if someone agrees with you that automatically makes you right, regardless of the facts? If Europe is moving further to the right, then why have recent elections in Europe shown a re-election of left-wing parties, such as in France? Our swedish right wing politicians have promoted private schools, a lowered support for union driven welfare, they've outsourced pharmacies to private businesses, and they've made tax cuts. You just have a very skewed image of what makes someone a conservative, EVERY politician and party in the world beside the US republican party is socialist if you go by your fox news standard. I just love how you European lefties love to accuse anyone who supports capitalism of "being a Fox News slave." As another poster in this thread said, most economies in first world countries are mixed; but some are far more socialist than others (for instance EU countries are more socialist than America).
Sorry, whats wrong with being left wing again?!? And yes, your right that most countries in europe are more left than america... but thats because america is WAY far right...
+ Europe isn't one massive country you know, lotta seperate countries that do different things.
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On September 11 2012 05:27 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:23 karpo wrote:On September 11 2012 05:18 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 05:08 Tula wrote:
Because most of us have multiple parties to represent all the different political leanings and directions within a country?
Considering how many seats they had 20 years ago and how many they have now I still have a very hard time seeing any "moving towards socialism" direction. Why don't you compare our conservative numbers, or simply the total number of seats to that?
You've had 10 different people from the EU in here, who said something along the lines of you are wrong, accept it and move on. Your "EU conservatives" aren't conservative, they're social democrats (socialists) who don't represent free market values. Because if someone agrees with you that automatically makes you right, regardless of the facts? If Europe is moving further to the right, then why have recent elections in Europe shown a re-election of left-wing parties, such as in France? Our swedish right wing politicians have promoted private schools, a lowered support for union driven welfare, they've outsourced pharmacies to private businesses, and they've made tax cuts. You just have a very skewed image of what makes someone a conservative, EVERY politician and party in the world beside the US republican party is socialist if you go by your fox news standard. I just love how you European lefties love to accuse anyone who supports capitalism of "being a Fox News slave." As another poster in this thread said, most economies in first world countries are mixed; but some are far more socialist than others (for instance EU countries are more socialist than America).
You just don't support capitalism. You show a distict lack of understanding of how things work outside the US. You talk about gun rights like they're essential to human life yet europe is doing fine without them. I'm not a european leftie, but i guess i'm a leftie by your definition - someone who's not a republican.
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On September 11 2012 05:26 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:15 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 04:56 Tula wrote:On September 11 2012 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees. Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest." With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees." Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane. EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal. To be very clear as well, Noncorporeal is about as wrong as he could possibly be and the ignorance reflected in his posts so far (as well as his staggering ability to ignore counterpoints or demands for sources) is pissing people off quite badly. Now to be even more precise, by the ludicrous standard of "gun-control" or "right to bear arms" (both things which are culturally VERY different in Europe) we do not have ANY division among our parties, so everyone including the most radically right parties must be socialists! Do you realise how silly that sounds? Not a single party in Austria is advocating looser gun control. There is no demand for it. Considering your previously well defined Republican bias, I'll ignore your statement about Obamas intentions, wether he truly wants that or not, is not something I'm willing to judge, but implying that Europe is moving towards socialism shows hilarious ignorance at best if it isn't a cheap troll. Regarding Freedom of speech, we (as in Austria and Germany) have by consensus restricted ourselves in regards to Nazis and Neo-Nazis, that might be an infringement of this article, but considering what happened half a century ago, I can happily live with that restriction. As a point of note, when your personal Freedom of speech infringes on hate-crimes and racism (as was the case with Herr Küssler) you should be facing trial in any democracy. Looks like you were wrong about Austria. Freedom isn't a "cultural" thing, gun rights are a fundamental right that all free humans have, our rights come from nature, not from the government. An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights, that includes people who have unpopular opinions. What is a "hate crime?" Seriously, why should "hate crimes" even exist? If you're doing something that is already illegal, then why do you need to make it a "hate crime?" If someone slits a black person's throat, why should it matter if said person did it because he was black or not? Why should that have any impact whatsoever on the law? The additional criminal component of a hate crime is not simply hatred itself, but the chilling effect it has on the freedom of members of a minority group. An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights.
So you think the government should punish people based on the reasons they committed the crime? That doesn't seem like a very "fair" way to run a judicial system, everyone is supposed to be viewed equally under the law; just because a victim is a minority, doesn't mean they somehow deserve greater compensation for the crime committed (or that the alleged perpetrator desrves more punishment). One could argue that every crime, committed against a minority or not, has a chilling effect on the community.
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On September 11 2012 05:15 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:56 Tula wrote:On September 11 2012 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 11 2012 03:23 frogrubdown wrote:On September 11 2012 02:54 NonCorporeal wrote:On September 11 2012 02:42 KwarK wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 NonCorporeal wrote:
Wow KwarK, what a rant, wow. With all due respect, I think that using the recent election of right-wing (EU defition) parties across Europe as an example of how Europe is moving towards American capitalism is ridiculous. There have been "conservative" (EU definition) elected in Europe before, and they haven't done anything meaningful to end the welfare state; and likewise, neither have the parties that have recently been elected in UK, Germany, Italy, and other EU countries. By that same definition, one could argue that they are also moving towards socialism again, with the Socialist Party forming a government in France and winning the presidential election a few months ago, with part of their platform claling for over 70% income tax.
These so-called "right-wing" parties in Europe are so far-left by normal standards, that they haven't done anything to end the welfare state, they haven't done anything to promote gun rights, they haven't done anything to stop multiculturalism, and they haven't done anything to re-instate freedom of speech and other freedoms that Europeans have lost under socialism. The people of Europe may very well want to move towards American-style capitalism and freedom, but they apparently have no outlet to make that happen, since the people they repeatedly elect into office are nowhere near radical enough to return capitalism to the people of Europe; possibly because politicians and bureaucrats often benefit from having a socialist welfare state and a big government.
Also, America is rapidly moving towards Europe, despite the fact that European leaders and politicians have been trying to warn America not to go down their path for at least a decade now. We've seen America moving further and further towards a big government welfare state and a nanny state that will strip people of their freedom and of their 'pursuit of happiness' (right to keep the fruits of their labor). There are factions in this country, mostly Democrats who want nothing more than to create a socialist welfare state, to nationalize healthcare, to nationalize various industries (we already nationalized the auto industry, and recently Obama said that he wants to nationalize "all other industries" as well), we've seen the lefties pushing towards more draconian gun control laws, we've seen the lefties trying to ban "fatty foods," we've seen the lefties pushing their multicultural agenda, and we've seen the lefties pushing a European-style "North American Union," and we've seen the lefties repeatedly side with Palestine instead of Israel.
Edit: Sorry, double posted on mistake.
It just baffles me how can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the American left isn't trying to turn America into Europe 2.0? "far-left by normal standards" Are you serious? By the standards of pretty much every single liberal democracy in the world America is far, far right. The fact that you're like "we're normal, it's all the other countries who are all abnormal" just shows the depths of ignorance enjoyed by those who still believe in American exceptionalism. You also in no way refuted the fact that Europe used to be socialist and that any claim that they're heading towards socialism based upon the legacy of socialist policies is factually untrue. Okay, imagine you saw a guy swimming in the sea, then loudly say "I don't want to swim anymore", then get out of the water, then say "I'm now no longer going to swim" and then walk away from the beach with wet hair. Would you conclude from this that because water is wet and he is wet he is clearly going for a swim or would you instead look at the direction he was walking in and conclude that he's perhaps just gone for a swim. I know it's a fairly silly example but I just cannot understand how to make the idiocy of what you're saying any clearer to you. I have outlined the history of socialism in the UK to you and explained that we have in fact already been socialist and that all of our major parties have rejected socialism openly and that the new consensus is far, far to the right of the previous consensus in the 50s and 60s. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. The things that you are saying are not the things that are true. This is not an opinion or something that you can argue. These are things that you can look up. I know you heard on whatever right wing fear media you subscribe to that the rest of the world is falling to the forces of socialism but it's factually incorrect. Not true. Wrong. Read a book for once. Do some independent research. Open your damn eyes. Where is the evidence that Europe is moving away from socialism towards the free-market? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument seems to be based on "we're not as socialist as we used to be, so clearly we love capitalism now." If you're going to claim that someone's argument is factually untrue, then you should at least provide legitimate reasons as to you feel that way. Edit: Sorry, I seem to have double posted. You seem confused. You made a claim about things changing, getting more socialist and less capitalist. For it to be the case that "we're not as socialist as we used to be" just is for it to be the case that we're "moving away from socialism and toward a free market" (unless of course they were going even further left, which they aren't). Whether or not anyone "loves capitalism now" has nothing to do with it. A change is a change. You claimed, based on nothing, that the change was in one direction. Kwark pointed out that it's been in the other. Be glad you've learned something today. Ah, here's the thread at its worst: not seeing the forest for the trees. Noncorporeal is exactly right in that democrats are pushing the US to be more like Europe in terms of government policy. I don't even think that this is fairly debatable. He's also right in pointing out that Europe is having a lot of difficulty managing its more socialist/liberal policies. That's the "forest." With regards to whether Europe is becoming more socialist or more capitalist, that's a rather difficult question to answer. You have to consider time frames and you also have to consider each country on an individual basis. I don't think anyone can argue that France is on a decidedly socialist trend (and quite frankly, I can't wait for this little experiment to blow up spectacularly in their faces). Regardless, this issue would be the "trees." Bottom line: stick to the larger point rather than giving Noncorporeal a shitty time about the more irrelevant stuff. What you're doing is inane. EDIT: And to be clear, this applies to the half-dozen other posters who have jumped on Noncorporeal. To be very clear as well, Noncorporeal is about as wrong as he could possibly be and the ignorance reflected in his posts so far (as well as his staggering ability to ignore counterpoints or demands for sources) is pissing people off quite badly. Now to be even more precise, by the ludicrous standard of "gun-control" or "right to bear arms" (both things which are culturally VERY different in Europe) we do not have ANY division among our parties, so everyone including the most radically right parties must be socialists! Do you realise how silly that sounds? Not a single party in Austria is advocating looser gun control. There is no demand for it. Considering your previously well defined Republican bias, I'll ignore your statement about Obamas intentions, wether he truly wants that or not, is not something I'm willing to judge, but implying that Europe is moving towards socialism shows hilarious ignorance at best if it isn't a cheap troll. Regarding Freedom of speech, we (as in Austria and Germany) have by consensus restricted ourselves in regards to Nazis and Neo-Nazis, that might be an infringement of this article, but considering what happened half a century ago, I can happily live with that restriction. As a point of note, when your personal Freedom of speech infringes on hate-crimes and racism (as was the case with Herr Küssler) you should be facing trial in any democracy. Looks like you were wrong about Austria. Freedom isn't a "cultural" thing, gun rights are a fundamental right that all free humans have, our rights come from nature, not from the government.
An important aspect of democracy is the protection of minority rights, that includes people who have unpopular opinions. What is a "hate crime?" Seriously, why should "hate crimes" even exist? If you're doing something that is already illegal, then why do you need to make it a "hate crime?" If someone slits a black person's throat, why should it matter if said person did it because he was black or not? Why should that have any impact whatsoever on the law?
I'm sorry, but I can't agree, especially when you live in a country where healthcare isn't considered a basic human right. How is a gun a human right? Perhaps you're talking about force, where libertarians argue the rights of a government to have a monopoly on force, but a gun is not a basic human right. Now, it is a legal right in the US, but other countries seem to be doing fine without that 'right' - lower violent crime, lower gun-related injuries/deaths etc.
A hate crime is when someone is attacked verbally or physically because of a trait they possess, such as the colour of their skin, their racial background, their religion. We legislate against this kind of behaviour because in Europe we believe that it should be illegal to attack someone on the basis that you just don't like them. Are you saying the US doesn't legislate against racism, or attacks on religion? Just because we call it different doesn't mean it's a bad thing, surely...?
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On September 11 2012 05:13 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 05:12 Doublemint wrote:On September 11 2012 05:05 NonCorporeal wrote:
If Europe is so right-wing, why do several European countries have communist parties in their parliaments?
Belarus
Communist Party of Belarus - 8 Lower House Seats
Czech Republic
Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia - 2 Upper House Seats - 26 Lower House Seats - 4 EU Seats
France
French Communist Party - 20 Upper House Seats - 10 Lower House Seats - 2 EU Seats
Communist Party of Réunion - 1 Lower House Seat
Germany
Die Linke - 76 Lower House Seats - 178 State Seats - 8 EU Seats
German Communist Party - 1 State Seat
Greece
Communist Party of Greece - 12 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Kazakhstan
Communist People's Party of Kazakhstan - 7 Lower House Seats
Luxembourg
The Left - 1 Seat
Moldova
Party of Communists of the Republic of Moldova - 39 Seats
Portugal
Portuguese Communist Party - 14 Seats - 2 EU Seats
Russia
Communist Party of Russia - 92 Lower House Seats
San Marino
United Left - 5 Seats
South Ossetia
Communist Party of South Ossetia - 8 Seats
Spain
United Left - 2 Upper House Seats - 11 Lower House Seats - 1 EU Seat
Transnistria
Pridnestrovie Communist Party - 1 Seat
Ukraine
Communist Party of Ukraine - 27 Seats Yes our dear European Comrades from Russia,Transnistria,Kazakhstan,Belarus,Ukraine and Moldova, South Ossetia. Now it's no denying it anymore I guess... I did a double take when I read your post. He really did include Kazakhstan. Wow.
Kazakhstan is arguably a European country, is it not? Depending on what you consider the borders of Europe to be.
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EPT
