On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
Proof?
Few politicians have been willing to identify as non-theists, since until recently such revelations would have been considered "political suicide",[55][56] until Democratic California Representative Pete Stark's 2007 decision to come out as the first openly nontheistic member of Congress.[37] In 2009, City Councilman Cecil Bothwell of Asheville, North Carolina was called "unworthy of his seat" because of his open atheism.[57] Several polls have shown that about 50 percent of Americans would not vote for a qualified atheist for president.[58][59] A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[60] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.[61] Atheists and atheist organizations have alleged discrimination against atheists in the military,[62][63][64][65][66][67] and recently, with the development of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, atheists have alleged institutionalized discrimination.[68][69] In several child custody court rulings, atheist parents have been discriminated against, either directly or indirectly. As child custody laws in the United States, are often based on the "best interests of the child" principle, they leave family court judges ample room to consider a parent’s ideology when settling a custody case. Atheism, lack of religious observation and regular church attendance, and the inability to prove one's willingness and capacity to attend to religion with his children, have been used to deny custody to non-religious parents.[70][71]
Tack onto that gay-bashing and we're just talking about the really normal stuff. That's not mentioning extremists. Atheists, on the other hand, boo at God when it's mentioned on a political party's platform, try to get any mention of God removed from the "Pledge of Allegiance," force the government to not sponsor prayer, and we're deemed intolerant because we believe in separation of church and state.
In any case, I know what you meant, and I agree. Most people in this world are intolerant one way or another, atheists included (and at times especially). I just don't think atheists are generally as intolerant, but intolerant nonetheless.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
Few politicians have been willing to identify as non-theists, since until recently such revelations would have been considered "political suicide",[55][56] until Democratic California Representative Pete Stark's 2007 decision to come out as the first openly nontheistic member of Congress.[37] In 2009, City Councilman Cecil Bothwell of Asheville, North Carolina was called "unworthy of his seat" because of his open atheism.[57] Several polls have shown that about 50 percent of Americans would not vote for a qualified atheist for president.[58][59] A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[60] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.[61] Atheists and atheist organizations have alleged discrimination against atheists in the military,[62][63][64][65][66][67] and recently, with the development of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, atheists have alleged institutionalized discrimination.[68][69] In several child custody court rulings, atheist parents have been discriminated against, either directly or indirectly. As child custody laws in the United States, are often based on the "best interests of the child" principle, they leave family court judges ample room to consider a parent’s ideology when settling a custody case. Atheism, lack of religious observation and regular church attendance, and the inability to prove one's willingness and capacity to attend to religion with his children, have been used to deny custody to non-religious parents.[70][71]
Tack onto that gay-bashing and we're just talking about the really normal stuff. That's not mentioning extremists. Atheists, on the other hand, boo at God when it's mentioned on a political party's platform, try to get any mention of God removed from the "Pledge of Allegiance," force the government to not sponsor prayer, and we're deemed intolerant because we believe in separation of church and state.
In any case, I know what you meant, and I agree. Most people in this world are intolerant one way or another, atheists included (and at times especially). I just don't think atheists are generally as intolerant, but intolerant nonetheless.
I'm sorry, but this whole narrative that the DNC was 'booing' at God is absurd.
They were 'booing' at the DNC leadership modifying perfectly fine, non-controversial language and shoehorning 'God' into it to pander to insecure pussies at the expense of atheist, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu and every other person that may not believe in a Christian god with a capital 'G'.
Fuck, if I were there I would boo, too. But I wouldn't be booing God, I would be booing stupidity.
On September 10 2012 20:38 Souma wrote: Guys, I think I found where Bill Clinton got his arithmetic speech from (and this was over a year ago)! + Show Spoiler +
Meh, I wouldn't give him that much credit. Do we not remember Bush's "fuzzy math"? Dems don't want to remember that since they want to silence Nader and progressives and blame them, but it was really powerful rhetoric used in that campaign. Yes, the American public is that stupid.
So Romney flip-flops on Obamacare again, saying that he would keep some provisions that he likes, for example, coverage for people with pre-existing conditions.
And as I said then, it's not possible to cover pre-existing conditions without a mandate because of adverse selection, i.e. people waiting until they are sick to get coverage, because they can't be denied, driving up the price of healthcare for everyone.
Of course, Romney knows this, that's why Romneycare has a mandate, because that's what Jonathan Gruber, the man who designed Romneycare told him.
Yes, Romney is a flip-flopping and lying hypocrite. Don't take it from me: here's what Gruber, the architect of Romneycare and Obamacare had to say:
"They're the same f***ing bill. He [Romney] just can't have his cake and eat it too," Gruber said. "He can try to draw distinctions and stuff, but he's just lying. The only big difference is he didn't have to pay for his. Because the federal government paid for it. Where at the federal level, we have to pay for it, so we have to raise taxes."
So Romney flip-flops on Obamacare again, saying that he would keep some provisions that he likes, for example, coverage for people with pre-existing conditions.
And as I said then, it's not possible to cover pre-existing conditions without a mandate because of adverse selection, i.e. people waiting until they are sick to get coverage, because they can't be denied, driving up the price of healthcare for everyone.
Of course, Romney knows this, that's why Romneycare has a mandate, because that's what Jonathan Gruber, the man who designed Romneycare told him.
Yes, Romney is a flip-flopping and lying hypocrite. Don't take it from me: here's what Gruber, the architect of Romneycare and Obamacare had to say:
"They're the same f***ing bill. He [Romney] just can't have his cake and eat it too," Gruber said. "He can try to draw distinctions and stuff, but he's just lying. The only big difference is he didn't have to pay for his. Because the federal government paid for it. Where at the federal level, we have to pay for it, so we have to raise taxes."
What would REALLY be hilarious, is if Romneycare pushed the envolope on single payer. Sometimes, from a progressive POV, that is not so far-fetched. Coming around full-circle and all. I mean, how else could he pay for it?
Dems often preach the fear of lesser of two evils, but for the far left, it is meaningless. Classical Marxism shows that progressive politics endures at the end of far right wing policies... “Imperialism, the Eve of the Socialist Revolution of the Proletariat”, although hopefully without the dictatorship.
The sheer amount of dishonesty it takes to claim that you're going to keep the popular provisions in the healthcare bill (basically the entire bill except the mandate) but not the unpopular ones like the individual mandate (which are basically the ones that allow for the popular provisions to be there in the first place) is mind-blowing.
On September 10 2012 21:16 kwizach wrote: The sheer amount of dishonesty it takes to claim that you're going to keep the popular provisions in the healthcare bill (basically the entire bill except the mandate) but not the unpopular ones like the individual mandate (which are basically the ones that allow for the popular provisions to be there in the first place) is mind-blowing.
And why should the popular ones only be allowed because of the madate. Why the fuck... should insurace companies be allowed to operate with pre existing conditions without the mandate anyway? AND why should for-profit insurance companies exist to begin with? Fucking predators on peoples' health and well being.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
On September 10 2012 13:28 xDaunt wrote: [quote] Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
i get peer pressure, i just don't think:
1) it is "peer pressure" to have someone praying out loud around you 2) that every kid needs to be protected from every form of peer pressure.
for 1, the fact is that having someone pray around you, or even to lead a group in prayer (if you are a member of the group) doesn't usually entail peer pressure. unless you are openly being disrespectful or disruptive, 99.9999999% of the time, no one will even notice that you aren't praying, or care if they do notice. and for 2, the fact is that this world is full of people with different opinions and they all have the right to speak them and challenge yours. if you are sheltered from cradle to 18 from anyone ever presenting you with a different point of view than, in my opinion, you will have a very isolated mindset, and will be unable to deal with real peer pressure.
i think it's perfectly fine to object to people being forced to pray. I would be very angry if my child was forced to pray, and I'm a Christian, so I could understand an atheist being very, and justifiably, pissed about it. but having someone lead a prayer doesn't mean you have to follow, and it doesn't mean that you have to act like you are either. its like, if i was with a bunch of Muslims who wanted to pray, I would stand quietly, probably with my hands folded, and try to be as respectful as possible for the duration of the prayer. that doesn't mean i'm suddenly a muslim or that i have to act like one.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
i get peer pressure, i just don't think:
1) it is "peer pressure" to have someone praying out loud around you 2) that every kid needs to be protected from every form of peer pressure.
for 1, the fact is that having someone pray around you, or even to lead a group in prayer (if you are a member of the group) doesn't usually entail peer pressure. unless you are openly being disrespectful or disruptive, 99.9999999% of the time, no one will even notice that you aren't praying, or care if they do notice. and for 2, the fact is that this world is full of people with different opinions and they all have the right to speak them and challenge yours. if you are sheltered from cradle to 18 from anyone ever presenting you with a different point of view than, in my opinion, you will have a very isolated mindset, and will be unable to deal with real peer pressure.
i think it's perfectly fine to object to people being forced to pray. I would be very angry if my child was forced to pray, and I'm a Christian, so I could understand an atheist being very, and justifiably, pissed about it. but having someone lead a prayer doesn't mean you have to follow, and it doesn't mean that you have to act like you are either. its like, if i was with a bunch of Muslims who wanted to pray, I would stand quietly, probably with my hands folded, and try to be as respectful as possible for the duration of the prayer. that doesn't mean i'm suddenly a muslim or that i have to act like one.
Peer pressure is perhaps later in years from the current age of my children, but would be what they would face in that scenario. At their current age, it would be a matter of authority figures telling them to pray. I have a big problem with that. A coach telling everyone to pray, for example. I do not have an issue if the coach allows time for kids to pray that would like to on their own initiative, however. There is a big difference there. A coach saying and initiating "let's pray.... blah balh blah", is not cool with me. If the coach himself wants to pray, and not make it madatory or implied as such, that's also fine with me.
On September 10 2012 13:28 xDaunt wrote: [quote] Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
I agree, the administrative staff for schools shouldn't be involved with initiating religious prayer sessions like that (although they can form voluntary groups); I think its part of the separation of church and state, seeing as how schools are part of the state (in a sense). Look at it from their side though, Christianity isn't just another "belief" to be respected, its *the truth*. Telling people that they're not allowed to preach the truth to children, which by the way can help to ensure that those kids don't suffer in hell eternally (!!), is a pretty big stumbling block to overcome with the typical argument that "keep in mind, Christianity isn't known to be true. Its just based on a very old book with little credibility". Won't work . So that's why its so hard.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
i get peer pressure, i just don't think:
1) it is "peer pressure" to have someone praying out loud around you 2) that every kid needs to be protected from every form of peer pressure.
for 1, the fact is that having someone pray around you, or even to lead a group in prayer (if you are a member of the group) doesn't usually entail peer pressure. unless you are openly being disrespectful or disruptive, 99.9999999% of the time, no one will even notice that you aren't praying, or care if they do notice. and for 2, the fact is that this world is full of people with different opinions and they all have the right to speak them and challenge yours. if you are sheltered from cradle to 18 from anyone ever presenting you with a different point of view than, in my opinion, you will have a very isolated mindset, and will be unable to deal with real peer pressure.
i think it's perfectly fine to object to people being forced to pray. I would be very angry if my child was forced to pray, and I'm a Christian, so I could understand an atheist being very, and justifiably, pissed about it. but having someone lead a prayer doesn't mean you have to follow, and it doesn't mean that you have to act like you are either. its like, if i was with a bunch of Muslims who wanted to pray, I would stand quietly, probably with my hands folded, and try to be as respectful as possible for the duration of the prayer. that doesn't mean i'm suddenly a muslim or that i have to act like one.
Look Pray is in churches and mosqs, kids go to school to learn stuff that exists, is real and can be proven! Mystical powers, gods etc. is in other places then schools.
Do you allow your children to have muslim prayers? then after that so budhist prayers? you wouldn't like it, right?
My kids will be religious when they are old enough to decide that's something they need and miss, they won't be religious because a teacher, a neighbour or a priest tell them they should or else they go do hell! GET IT? Is is that difficult to comprehend?
You are forcing your views on a young person, that doesn't have the tools to decide for it's own. Do you fear your "God" so much, that if your kid doesn't follow your footsteps we will fail and suffer? What kind of god is that ?
USA was the first country to ban religion from it's core but not anymore! There isn't one communication without the "God bless America" bull shit.. what is that? God bless a country? God doesn't work that way.. if you are worthy and suffer in it's name, you might be blessed.. he doesn't bless a whole country especially when they declare war on others etc..
It's such a hipocrisy!
TLDR: School = Teaching, GOD's and prayers = Churches/Mosqs/etc..
On September 10 2012 18:40 starfries wrote: [quote] to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
I'm not denying it (or accepting it since you really didn't provide any proof) but just because a religion might have a bad history doesn't mean it necessarily reflects on the average religious American or their capacity for tolerance. I dunno what the big deal is, anyways - I just meant that there are a lot of intolerant, hypocritical atheists and your statement about preaching tolerance sounding cynical applies equally well to them. I thought it was especially worth noting since a lot of them are under the illusion that they aren't intolerant.
If your kid wants to take a couple moments to pray in school, so be it- I have no problem with that at all... just don't make my kid feel forced to join in. Why is that so hard to comprehend? If you want to raise your kid that way, so be it. I am not OK with that style for my kids. I just want you guys to leave my kids alone... that's all. Throw around whatever labels and stereotypical nonsense you want with adults, leave the kids alone thank you. It's not right. It has nothing to do with intolerance when you are taking advantage of a child's innocence to force totalitarian ideals down their fucking throats... stop it already.
a teacher/coach/principal saying: "Let's pray... blah blah blah... Amen" makes your kid feel like he/she has to join in? why?
You really don't understand the power of peer pressure... even with issues kids have no full understanding of? Why does it need to be ritualistic? Why can't a kid that voluntarily wants to pray does so alone? Why forced? Why does my kid have to join yours?
i get peer pressure, i just don't think:
1) it is "peer pressure" to have someone praying out loud around you 2) that every kid needs to be protected from every form of peer pressure.
for 1, the fact is that having someone pray around you, or even to lead a group in prayer (if you are a member of the group) doesn't usually entail peer pressure. unless you are openly being disrespectful or disruptive, 99.9999999% of the time, no one will even notice that you aren't praying, or care if they do notice. and for 2, the fact is that this world is full of people with different opinions and they all have the right to speak them and challenge yours. if you are sheltered from cradle to 18 from anyone ever presenting you with a different point of view than, in my opinion, you will have a very isolated mindset, and will be unable to deal with real peer pressure.
i think it's perfectly fine to object to people being forced to pray. I would be very angry if my child was forced to pray, and I'm a Christian, so I could understand an atheist being very, and justifiably, pissed about it. but having someone lead a prayer doesn't mean you have to follow, and it doesn't mean that you have to act like you are either. its like, if i was with a bunch of Muslims who wanted to pray, I would stand quietly, probably with my hands folded, and try to be as respectful as possible for the duration of the prayer. that doesn't mean i'm suddenly a muslim or that i have to act like one.
Do you allow your children to have muslim prayers? then after that so budhist prayers? you wouldn't like it, right?
This is the hypocracy of the people who are in favor of having prayer in schools. What they really mean is - Christian Prayer, I wonder how mad they would get if it was Muslim rofl.
So Romney flip-flops on Obamacare again, saying that he would keep some provisions that he likes, for example, coverage for people with pre-existing conditions.
And as I said then, it's not possible to cover pre-existing conditions without a mandate because of adverse selection, i.e. people waiting until they are sick to get coverage, because they can't be denied, driving up the price of healthcare for everyone.
Of course, Romney knows this, that's why Romneycare has a mandate, because that's what Jonathan Gruber, the man who designed Romneycare told him.
Yes, Romney is a flip-flopping and lying hypocrite. Don't take it from me: here's what Gruber, the architect of Romneycare and Obamacare had to say:
"They're the same f***ing bill. He [Romney] just can't have his cake and eat it too," Gruber said. "He can try to draw distinctions and stuff, but he's just lying. The only big difference is he didn't have to pay for his. Because the federal government paid for it. Where at the federal level, we have to pay for it, so we have to raise taxes."
After the Romney interview, an aide contradicts Romney's remarks, saying that Romney would not be requiring coverage for people with pre-existing conditions at all.
Then another aide contradicts that remark, saying that requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions would only be for those with continuous coverage.
So in total, 4 flip-flops in 1 day.
I had a bit of a giggle when I saw that this is how Krugman characterized it:
EPT
. So that's why its so hard.
