On September 10 2012 07:46 Savio wrote: I'm not sure what is exactly going on in this pic, but I find it funny. + Show Spoiler +
"Vice President Joe Biden talks to customers during a stop at Cruisers Diner, Sept. 9, in Seaman, Ohio." --http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/09/13763392-biden-cozies-up-to-voters-in-ohio?lite
Another interesting picture from today:
How in the world did that guy not get his arm broken by SS?
On September 10 2012 07:46 Savio wrote: I'm not sure what is exactly going on in this pic, but I find it funny. + Show Spoiler +
"Vice President Joe Biden talks to customers during a stop at Cruisers Diner, Sept. 9, in Seaman, Ohio." --http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/09/13763392-biden-cozies-up-to-voters-in-ohio?lite
Another interesting picture from today:
How in the world did that guy not get his arm broken by SS?
I thought the exact same thing.
He's looking right a camera (phone?) in the background. Seems to me like this was a discussed photo op.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
I think a lot of Americans are so used to being part of a religious majority they simply don't understand what the minority are talking about. A candidate for a major public office stating that in his opinion rights come from God is actually quite worrying to me because that's a pretty unstable foundation from my perspective. They should come from something common and intrinsic to the whole society, such as a respect for fellow man.
I tend to think that laying as a foundation that rights come from God is quite a solid foundation. The past 200 years or so have been marked with quite a bit of freedom and prosperity. Toqueville gets into this in his Democracy in America. I don't pretend that slavery and non-universal suffrage didn't happen, rather that those existing conditions were alleviated by the means of their conflict with a free society that held dear rights are given by God to all and not granted to some and denied others. Other foundations for basic freedoms have long been ascribed by other governments in their foundings, and indeed were before America was founded and continue to be long afterwards. The perception of the God described in the Bible isn't something shaky, as the book has remained largely untouched for a couple thousand years.
Of course, the entire process of describing what are rights protected against impingement by a police power is quite a large topic. I leave it at this: the success of the United States in staying largely economically successful and judicially sound from its founding to today is an example of a country with God-given rights not faltering under an unstable foundation.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I think a lot of Americans are so used to being part of a religious majority they simply don't understand what the minority are talking about. A candidate for a major public office stating that in his opinion rights come from God is actually quite worrying to me because that's a pretty unstable foundation from my perspective. They should come from something common and intrinsic to the whole society, such as a respect for fellow man.
I tend to think that laying as a foundation that rights come from God is quite a solid foundation. The past 200 years or so have been marked with quite a bit of freedom and prosperity. Toqueville gets into this in his Democracy in America. I don't pretend that slavery and non-universal suffrage didn't happen, rather that those existing conditions were alleviated by the means of their conflict with a free society that held dear rights are given by God to all and not granted to some and denied others. Other foundations for basic freedoms have long been ascribed by other governments in their foundings, and indeed were before America was founded and continue to be long afterwards. The perception of the God described in the Bible isn't something shaky, as the book has remained largely untouched for a couple thousand years.
Of course, the entire process of describing what are rights protected against impingement by a police power is quite a large topic. I leave it at this: the success of the United States in staying largely economically successful and judicially sound from its founding to today is an example of a country with God-given rights not faltering under an unstable foundation.
The only reason the system even begins to work is because nobody actually trusts God to enforce them because despite the idea of God-given rights it's assumed that it's up to society to believe in them and enforce them. If God were actually intervening directly when the rights of man were violated then I'd absolutely be all for the idea that rights come from God and that he is the guarantor for them. But that doesn't happen and I don't believe in God so to hear that the ultimate source for liberties comes from someone's invisible friend but the invisible friend doesn't actually interact or change the world is really not a comfortable thought.
I think a lot of Americans are so used to being part of a religious majority they simply don't understand what the minority are talking about. A candidate for a major public office stating that in his opinion rights come from God is actually quite worrying to me because that's a pretty unstable foundation from my perspective. They should come from something common and intrinsic to the whole society, such as a respect for fellow man.
I tend to think that laying as a foundation that rights come from God is quite a solid foundation. The past 200 years or so have been marked with quite a bit of freedom and prosperity. Toqueville gets into this in his Democracy in America. I don't pretend that slavery and non-universal suffrage didn't happen, rather that those existing conditions were alleviated by the means of their conflict with a free society that held dear rights are given by God to all and not granted to some and denied others. Other foundations for basic freedoms have long been ascribed by other governments in their foundings, and indeed were before America was founded and continue to be long afterwards. The perception of the God described in the Bible isn't something shaky, as the book has remained largely untouched for a couple thousand years.
Of course, the entire process of describing what are rights protected against impingement by a police power is quite a large topic. I leave it at this: the success of the United States in staying largely economically successful and judicially sound from its founding to today is an example of a country with God-given rights not faltering under an unstable foundation.
The only reason the system even begins to work is because nobody actually trusts God to enforce them because despite the idea of God-given rights it's assumed that it's up to society to believe in them and enforce them. If God were actually intervening directly when the rights of man were violated then I'd absolutely be all for the idea that rights come from God and that he is the guarantor for them. But that doesn't happen and I don't believe in God so to hear that the ultimate source for liberties comes from someone's invisible friend but the invisible friend doesn't actually interact or change the world is really not a comfortable thought.
Man can you imagine if god actually smited people with lightning everytime someone did something it says not to do in the bible. It would be a pretty fucked up world, can't pick and choose what you believe out of the bible then lol.
I think a lot of Americans are so used to being part of a religious majority they simply don't understand what the minority are talking about. A candidate for a major public office stating that in his opinion rights come from God is actually quite worrying to me because that's a pretty unstable foundation from my perspective. They should come from something common and intrinsic to the whole society, such as a respect for fellow man.
I tend to think that laying as a foundation that rights come from God is quite a solid foundation. The past 200 years or so have been marked with quite a bit of freedom and prosperity. Toqueville gets into this in his Democracy in America. I don't pretend that slavery and non-universal suffrage didn't happen, rather that those existing conditions were alleviated by the means of their conflict with a free society that held dear rights are given by God to all and not granted to some and denied others. Other foundations for basic freedoms have long been ascribed by other governments in their foundings, and indeed were before America was founded and continue to be long afterwards. The perception of the God described in the Bible isn't something shaky, as the book has remained largely untouched for a couple thousand years.
Of course, the entire process of describing what are rights protected against impingement by a police power is quite a large topic. I leave it at this: the success of the United States in staying largely economically successful and judicially sound from its founding to today is an example of a country with God-given rights not faltering under an unstable foundation.
The only reason the system even begins to work is because nobody actually trusts God to enforce them because despite the idea of God-given rights it's assumed that it's up to society to believe in them and enforce them. If God were actually intervening directly when the rights of man were violated then I'd absolutely be all for the idea that rights come from God and that he is the guarantor for them. But that doesn't happen and I don't believe in God so to hear that the ultimate source for liberties comes from someone's invisible friend but the invisible friend doesn't actually interact or change the world is really not a comfortable thought.
Man can you imagine if god actually smited people with lightning everytime someone did something it says not to do in the bible. It would be a pretty fucked up world, can't pick and choose what you believe out of the bible then lol.
I admit, this kind of world would probably make me a believer, too. Even more so if God didn't actually hand down his beliefs from on high, and instead the Bible had been pieced together from trial-and-error, with clearly-defined consequences.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife and God-given property, lest thine penis explode into hornets from within.
Awful. Unsurprisingly, this whole separation of church and state (and morality) thing seems like more of that whole terrible experience of being one of those subjugated majorities I mentioned hearing about a while ago. It must be awful (really) to be so unfairly oppressed by these utterly outnumbered people asking to have their own beliefs and traditions respected.
(Apparently I am vain enough to link to two of my own posts.)
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
They are tolerant! ...as long as you agree with them. And pray when they tell you to. No, not to that god. And get away from him, that doesn't go in there.
I think a lot of Americans are so used to being part of a religious majority they simply don't understand what the minority are talking about. A candidate for a major public office stating that in his opinion rights come from God is actually quite worrying to me because that's a pretty unstable foundation from my perspective. They should come from something common and intrinsic to the whole society, such as a respect for fellow man.
I tend to think that laying as a foundation that rights come from God is quite a solid foundation. The past 200 years or so have been marked with quite a bit of freedom and prosperity. Toqueville gets into this in his Democracy in America. I don't pretend that slavery and non-universal suffrage didn't happen, rather that those existing conditions were alleviated by the means of their conflict with a free society that held dear rights are given by God to all and not granted to some and denied others. Other foundations for basic freedoms have long been ascribed by other governments in their foundings, and indeed were before America was founded and continue to be long afterwards. The perception of the God described in the Bible isn't something shaky, as the book has remained largely untouched for a couple thousand years.
Of course, the entire process of describing what are rights protected against impingement by a police power is quite a large topic. I leave it at this: the success of the United States in staying largely economically successful and judicially sound from its founding to today is an example of a country with God-given rights not faltering under an unstable foundation.
It might gave been a solid foundation back when we didn't know about evolution or the human mind. God given rights sound stupid to me as there's been countless gods in history yet somehow this one is real and gives us our rights. What about all the other cultures that reached a similar status on human rights yet did so either with no god or a different god?
Also God described in the bible is shaky if you consider how much people in power pick and chose when deciding what is relevant and what would now be considered immoral (stoning, selling women, gay rights, killing people that work on the sabbath).
On September 10 2012 13:45 Defacer wrote: Can I get an outline of some of these rights that God has given us?
The right to sell your daughter.
Exodus 21: 7 - If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
Hmmm ... some of these rights that God has given us sure sound like something some self-serving asshole might make up. It's a good thing it came from God, or else I'd be concerned!
I'll lay it out real simple and easy... if someone wants to pray at schoool for a couple minutes, go right ahead. Lunch break, bathroom break, whatevevs. You guys want to go worship snakes and do your dance with a cult, fine- my only caveat is that noone gets hurt. Where I do draw the line is where you guys force my kids to join along and come home telling me what they did in school that day. Not cool with me. Simple as that.
My reason: I am not raising my kids to be atheists like myself. I am giving them the opportunity to decide for themselves. I do not think it right to brainwash them with totalitarian thought at a gullible early age. Once they have studied scripture and can understand with a matured mind, if they do decide a life of faith, I would not take that away from them. I only want them to be able to understand first.
Is this really too much to ask? Please, leave the kids alone...
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
On September 10 2012 09:17 BlueBird. wrote: Savio can you imagine if a Muslim led a mostly Christian High School in the deep south in a Muslim prayer. What do you think some of the parents would do in response to this? What kind of bullying or what not would the student receive? Basically I don't think it's as equal as you say it is, and would lead to the school banning prayer probably. What if it was some Haitian Vodou dance/prayer/ritual? I'm sure people would be upset, but really it's just this student's religion. What if it was something really out there like a prayer to Aphrodite for great sex?
If a student wants to lead a prayer fine by me, but as soon as the school is involved in anyway it's not ok, and I'm sure once different parents voice their opinions the majority will win out, basically favoring the dominant religion. There are places like Catholic school etc where you are free too mix religion in as much as you want if you want your kid to grow up in that environment that is an option for you.
This isn't really a government issue(since the government should have basically no interaction with religion), more of a social issue though. Another example of religion leading to intolerance.
meh, I am from a minority religion and I never got offended when Christian prayers were given. And I wouldn't if Muslim prayers were given.
Haven't y'all seen the "Deathcamp of Tolerance" episode from South Park? Tolerate means "put up with," not "accept." There is no general right to freedom from being offended.
It sounds extremely cynical when religious advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
to be honest, it also sounds cynical when atheist advocates try to play the "tolerance" card.
I'd give atheists the upper-hand with tolerance. I wonder how many people atheists have murdered or oppressed compared to the many wars and atrocities religion has incited throughout history and the present.
In any case, what most atheists are intolerant of is religion having a place in government/the public sphere. Religious people are free to do whatever they want on their own time as long as government does not have a hand in it. If people want to pray in school, they can feel free to do it on their own time by creating a Prayer Club or something. But the state should not be initiating that stuff. If you wanna be praying during school time, you better make sure you set aside two minutes making the students chant, "God does not exist. God does not exist. God does not exist."
you know that not all religious people are extremists? and you know that just because you're religious doesn't mean you necessarily identify with any tyrants and/or murderers who happened to share your religion?
from personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant atheists than intolerant theists. probably because I spend a lot of time on the internet. just look at r/atheism.
Did I say all religious people are extremists? What I said was that religion as a basis has advocated more intolerance than atheists ever have. Are you going to deny this?
From personal experience, I've encountered a lot more intolerant theists than atheists. Might be because I read too much.
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