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On September 03 2012 07:27 BallinWitStalin wrote:
(for the record, when someone resorts to "fundamentals" in an economics debate, it usually means they don't know what they're talking about, because government budgeting, regulation, tax policy, market structure, and economics are all incredibly complicated things that don't behave according to simplistic assumptions most of the time).
I don't know what I'm talking about? Perhaps I'm dealing with people who don't know what they are talking about.
Sorry if I implied you were a liberal though, BallinWitStalin. Was that too... well I can't complete the sentence because I'd probably get banned. It is fun however to pause and note how Stalin (and Mao Tse Tung and a handful of others responsible for millions of deaths) manage to remain respectable - if not admired - but one would I think be banned on sight if it were a username like HangingWitHitler.
And the fact that economies behave unpredictably is exactly why it is such a terrible idea to put a handful of self-interested government bureaucrats in charge! Certainly not the ones who can look at a tax revenue chart and say "We made $X on the millionaires at 35% tax rates so we can make $X+15% if we tax them at 50%!"
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There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats):
"After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August.
During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends."
Source
That was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012.
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On September 03 2012 07:31 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
If Mitt Romney was this "perfect businessman" the GOP is trying to push him as he should have been able to turn the company profitable and meet its debt obligations and maintain a good credit rating moving forward. I just sometimes wish politics would be a little more truthful, but the realist in me knows that will never happen.
"Sterling businessman" is the buzzphrase, not perfect. Conservatives understand businesses rise and fall, sometimes fail, theory of creative destruction and all that.
Also, do you know what dvorakftw is talking about?
Not a clue, dude.
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On September 03 2012 06:44 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 06:07 Leporello wrote:On September 03 2012 04:42 dvorakftw wrote:
For the first time in the history of our government, people are forced to buy something because the government says so but that's not extreme because you approve. Just want to repost this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29099806/Act-for-the-Relief-of-Sick-DisabledSeamen-July-1798Because I think it's hilarious. Not to mention you're forgetting that Romney himself did the same thing (mandate health insurance), or does he not count as part of our government? Oh you cherry pick the only thing you could hope to answer because I burned you on the rest blah blah blah too lazy to quote you back. Anyway the Seaman talking point is apples to oranges and debunked in probably nine of the first ten results of searching why it doesn't apply. And you got me leaving out the word "federal". Have a cookie.
Is that ironic? You responded to a post I made from several days ago, despite ignoring it for some time. You reformatted it to change the quotes to bold-text for no apparent reason, and cut out half of what I said. So, yes, apparently we're done actually trying to keep our exchanges in whole-form. Which is just as well.
Yeah, sorry I'm not playing the game by your rules.
This isn't a game, and the rules are basic civil discourse.
I'll say, to not make this post totally worthless, that John Adams' Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seaman is far, far from irrelevant as you'd claim it to be.
John Adams' formulated a tax-collecting office for the explicit purpose of ensuring healthcare to people who were struggling to obtain healthcare. By your definition, if Obama had done such a thing, it'd be Socialism.
Adams saw a need and provided a direct, bureaucratic response. The Supreme Court didn't care, the Congress didn't care (they passed it), the people didn't care -- except for the poorer ship-crewmen who were probably quite pleased.
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On September 03 2012 07:55 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 07:31 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
If Mitt Romney was this "perfect businessman" the GOP is trying to push him as he should have been able to turn the company profitable and meet its debt obligations and maintain a good credit rating moving forward. I just sometimes wish politics would be a little more truthful, but the realist in me knows that will never happen. "Sterling businessman" is the buzzphrase, not perfect. Conservatives understand businesses rise and fall, sometimes fail, theory of creative destruction and all that. Not a clue, dude.
So if you have no clue what you're talking about how are we supposed to?
/sarcasm
I mean seriously all I have seen you post the last few pages is something about Nazis, the free market and something about fundemental economics.
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On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012.
I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game.
It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012.
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On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012.
Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good.
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On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:
I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game.
It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good.
No don't be fooled by smoke and mirrors. Obama's policies are awesome and fool-proof but those darned Republicans have prevented him from doing anything! It's the Republicans fault and the fault of all the idiots who are fooled. Just imagine employment today if Obama's stimulus could have been two or three or five trillion dollars we don't have instead of just $800 billion!
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On September 03 2012 07:59 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
I mean seriously all I have seen you post the last few pages is something about Nazis, the free market and something about fundemental economics.
What more do you want?
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On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good.
I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish.
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On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish.
It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history.
It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source
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On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. Show nested quote +It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source
And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people.
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On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish.
Are you really going to play that card?
But seriously, democrats should be furious with Obama and the other party leaders. Within a period of two years, they managed to revive a horribly brand-damaged republican party that should have taken far longer to recover from the fallout of the Bush years. After four years, they are now at a point where they are in danger of being brand-damaged in a similar way. Oh, and let's not forget that if republicans win the presidency and a majority in the senate, they'll eliminate Obamacare thereby erasing basically all of the progressive legislative policies that Obama and the democrats were able to accomplish. The democrats have so badly managed their position that it is almost sad.
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On September 03 2012 08:38 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people.
It certainly doesn't help, that much is for sure. If we were to play a game of hypotheticals, however, I'm pretty sure a caucasian Democratic president in Obama's spot would face similar obstruction given the contemporary political climate. Difficult to say in any case.
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On September 03 2012 08:39 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. Are you really going to play that card? But seriously, democrats should be furious with Obama and the other party leaders. Within a period of two years, they managed to revive a horribly brand-damaged republican party that should have taken far longer to recover from the fallout of the Bush years. After four years, they are now at a point where they are in danger of being brand-damaged in a similar way. Oh, and let's not forget that if republicans win the presidency and a majority in the senate, they'll eliminate Obamacare thereby erasing basically all of the progressive legislative policies that Obama and the democrats were able to accomplish. The democrats have so badly managed their position that it is almost sad.
That's usually what you get when you try to do what's best for the American people rather than simply play it safe politically.
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On September 03 2012 08:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:38 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people. It certainly doesn't help, that much is for sure. If we were to play a game of hypotheticals, however, I'm pretty sure a caucasian Democratic president in Obama's spot would face similar obstruction given the contemporary political climate. Difficult to say in any case.
It's true, but we do have an example with Clinton and the much more energized Contract With America Congress. The crucial difference, I think, is that Clinton was able to push back harder and fight for actual compromise, whereas Obama has taken a conciliatory tone off the bat only to be rebuked and chastised as the most left-wing president ever. I mean look at how he dropped support (and even fought against supporters in his own party) for the public option in his healthcare reform, in return for...wait for it...0 votes in the Senate and 0 votes in the House from Republicans. And he didn't even start off with his ideal bill: he started off with a compromise version that had a lot in common with Republican proposals only to be rebuffed entirely by Republicans and branded as an angry super-Marxist. I really do think that a lot of Obama's milquetoast centrism comes from the fact that if he really stood up for anything, he believes (and probably rightly so) that there would be even MORE backlash than there is from him being a center-right politician already deemed an ultra-leftist.
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On September 03 2012 08:49 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:39 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. Are you really going to play that card? But seriously, democrats should be furious with Obama and the other party leaders. Within a period of two years, they managed to revive a horribly brand-damaged republican party that should have taken far longer to recover from the fallout of the Bush years. After four years, they are now at a point where they are in danger of being brand-damaged in a similar way. Oh, and let's not forget that if republicans win the presidency and a majority in the senate, they'll eliminate Obamacare thereby erasing basically all of the progressive legislative policies that Obama and the democrats were able to accomplish. The democrats have so badly managed their position that it is almost sad. That's usually what you get when you try to do what's best for the American people rather than simply play it safe politically.
The thing is, the Democrats HAVE played it safe politically instead of trying to do what's best. Sure, they've pissed off a lot of supporters, but Democratic supporters are much more reliable voters when it comes to the polls than Republican supporters, and in the meantime the actual backbone of the party, the funders, have been appeased.
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On September 03 2012 08:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:38 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people. It certainly doesn't help, that much is for sure. If we were to play a game of hypotheticals, however, I'm pretty sure a caucasian Democratic president in Obama's spot would face similar obstruction given the contemporary political climate. Difficult to say in any case.
While I will concede that some of the radicals that vote Republican are racist in some way (the more "crazy" Tea Party members), I don't think race plays any part in this Congress. They're just so convinced that their policies, and only the PURE following of them, are so right that they're willing to pursue a scorched earth tactic to enact them.
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On September 03 2012 08:49 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:41 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:38 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people. It certainly doesn't help, that much is for sure. If we were to play a game of hypotheticals, however, I'm pretty sure a caucasian Democratic president in Obama's spot would face similar obstruction given the contemporary political climate. Difficult to say in any case. It's true, but we do have an example with Clinton and the much more energized Contract With America Congress. The crucial difference, I think, is that Clinton was able to push back harder and fight for actual compromise, whereas Obama has taken a conciliatory tone off the bat only to be rebuked and chastised as the most left-wing president ever. I mean look at how he dropped support (and even fought against supporters in his own party) for the public option in his healthcare reform, in return for...wait for it...0 votes in the Senate and 0 votes in the House from Republicans. And he didn't even start off with his ideal bill: he started off with a compromise version that had a lot in common with Republican proposals only to be rebuffed entirely by Republicans and branded as an angry super-Marxist. I really do think that a lot of Obama's milquetoast centrism comes from the fact that if he really stood up for anything, he believes (and probably rightly so) that there would be even MORE backlash than there is from him being a center-right politician already deemed an ultra-leftist.
The differences are 1) Clinton was a true centrist whereas Obama is not, and 2) Clinton was a superior politician who knew how to co-opt republican ideas and positions, thereby neutralizing his opposition.
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On September 03 2012 08:49 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:41 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:38 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:36 farvacola wrote:On September 03 2012 08:31 HunterX11 wrote:On September 03 2012 08:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2012 08:04 aksfjh wrote:On September 03 2012 07:51 Savio wrote:There are now more Republicans than Democrats in this country (see article for number of Democrats): "After falling for two straight months, the number of Americans who consider themselves Republicans jumped nearly three points in August. During August, 37.6% of Americans considered themselves Republicans. That’s up from 34.9% in July and 35.4% in June. It’s also the largest number of Republicans ever recorded by Rasmussen Report since monthly tracking began in November 2002. The previous peak for the GOP was 37.3% in September 2004. See History of Party Trends." SourceThat was very surprising to me. There have always been more self called conservatives than liberals in the US, but in the past there was almost always more Democrats than Republicans. Now it appears that the number of Republicans have passed Democrats and number of Republicans is at all time high. Seems to be a bad omen for Obama in 2012. I think it has to do with a unified, clear party, as well as the state of the economy. My only problem in all of this is that much of the Republican gains have been on the backs of outright lies. The party outright stated that their #1 goal was to make Obama a 1 term President. Not to create jobs, not to control the deficit, not bring Americans to "prosperity," but to win the political game. It frustrates me that people can be so misdirected by the smoke and mirrors of political nuance and a concentrated party effort. I've heard plenty of anecdotes about people changing parties because "Obama's economic policies" haven't been working, when, in reality, there are NO economic polices even being executed right now. We've been on cruise control since 2010 because a better economy means a Republican loss in 2012. Why are democrats and liberals so deluded about the quality of Obama's presidency? He just isn't good. I agree he has been quite poor and hasn't shown very good leadership even given the obstacles he has faced. Still, as a black president, he really is quite constrained in what he can hope to accomplish. It is not because he is black, it is because he is partnered with the least effective and least liked congress in history. It is difficult to pinpoint precise causes for these extraordinarily negative views, although the continuing poor economy is certainly a major factor. The fact that control of Congress is now divided, with a Republican majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate, may provide an opportunity for Americans of all political persuasions to dislike some aspect of Congress. With Congress divided, however, it is difficult to assess what impact its low ratings will have on the November elections, now less than three months away.
Source And the reason Congress is even more obstructionist than it was under Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton is that the White House has a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Atheist Fascist instead of a Real American in the eyes of a lot of people. It certainly doesn't help, that much is for sure. If we were to play a game of hypotheticals, however, I'm pretty sure a caucasian Democratic president in Obama's spot would face similar obstruction given the contemporary political climate. Difficult to say in any case. It's true, but we do have an example with Clinton and the much more energized Contract With America Congress. The crucial difference, I think, is that Clinton was able to push back harder and fight for actual compromise, whereas Obama has taken a conciliatory tone off the bat only to be rebuked and chastised as the most left-wing president ever. I mean look at how he dropped support (and even fought against supporters in his own party) for the public option in his healthcare reform, in return for...wait for it...0 votes in the Senate and 0 votes in the House from Republicans. And he didn't even start off with his ideal bill: he started off with a compromise version that had a lot in common with Republican proposals only to be rebuffed entirely by Republicans and branded as an angry super-Marxist. I really do think that a lot of Obama's milquetoast centrism comes from the fact that if he really stood up for anything, he believes (and probably rightly so) that there would be even MORE backlash than there is from him being a center-right politician already deemed an ultra-leftist.
I totally agree with you, only I think some degree of his apparent reticence to show off his liberal colors has to do with what he has in store for a second term. Call it youthful ignorance on my part but I have enough interest in seeing what he can do with an untethered four years to vote for him everyday against a Republican.
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EPT
