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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:16 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You've obviously never seen a Ted Talk before... And if you have, you haven't seen many to understand how they work. Ted talks tend to be ultra-lightweight entertainment. They can be useful for drawing attention to a new idea or less-known concept, but don't mistake them for a collection of rigorous scientific talks. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:06 Probe1 wrote: Wait so the Republican Party isn't going to support deportation over naturalization anymore? When did this start? Ten minutes after the election was over or twenty? The problem with sending out the message is actions speak tenfold over crappy commercials and blowhard pundits. Republicans ain't so kind to dem foreigners. President Bush actually tried repeatedly to pass immigration reform that would have laid a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. Since then the moderate elements of the Republican party have lost influence on the issue. McCain pushed hard for it as well during the time Bush was in office, but seems to have taken a bit of a step backwards as he decided to support Arizona SB 1070 last minute in order to better his chances at re-election. Mitt Romney has moved his party farther to the right in the issue as he casted himself as an outspoken hardliner on immigration as well as a host of other social issues. 8 years ago the party was divided and headed towards immigration reform. Right now there are still Republican members of the House and Senate who were around when Bush pushed for it, and I suspect will readily support illegal-friendly immigration reform as soon as it is politically palatable to their base. Their base recoiled on pretty much every social issue after President Obama was elected and they made the decision to cater to the base rather than stand firm on things like this. That said, it's not fair to characterize the entire party as one that hates illegals. Moderate Republicans are out there, and they don't have the hard-line stances that Mitt Romney leaned towards regarding social issues. Everyone said this election was going to be about the economy. Mitt Romney still won on the economy. He lost on social issues and he lost on foreign policy due to the continued hangover from Bush. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: Didn't over 70% of Asians also vote for Obama? That seems kinda surprising given that in 2004 only 56% of Asians voted for Kerry. And I never got the impression that Asians are particularly fond of African-Americans as opposed to Caucasians. By the way 62% of Asians voted for Obama over McCain in 2008. So unless Obama got blacker in four years I think there is something more going on here than just Obama being black. I think Mitt Romney failed in his campaign to appeal to minorities, even more so than McCain. But then again McCain was seen as less of the good ol' boy type and Romney's image in that regard this election was . . . yeah . . . Yeah, I'm compiling a list of data right now. So far: Asians 2004: 56% B, 44% R 2008: 62% B, 35% R 2012: 73% B, 26% R That is +11%. Hispanic: 2004: 53% B, 44% R 2008: 66% B, 31% R 2012: 71% B, 27% +5% White: 2004: 41% B, 58% R 2008: 43% B, 55% R 2012: 39% B, 59% R -4% Black: 2004: 88% B, 11% R 2008: 95% B, 4% R 2012: 93% B, 6% R -2% | ||
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soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:53 KwarK wrote: I said that the Romney hates blacks guys are probably cancelled out by the Obama hates Christianity guys, not that all black voters everywhere are cancelled out by Obama hates Christianity guys. What you've done here is take what I said about the idiots who make up part of the support for every party and then say that in the Democratic party every black voter is one of those idiots. You might want to consider why you've done this. Or maybe my argument wasn't 100% clear? Let's try again. Say there are 40 million blacks in America. Say 65% voted (underestimating). That's 26,000,000 black voters. Of that, 93% voted Obama. Let's say 2.5% of them voted for him because he's black (probably an underestimate again, but I obviously can't prove that). So that says 650,000 people voted for Obama because he is black. Think there are 650,000 people that think Obama is going to convert everyone to Islam? Not by a long shot. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: Didn't over 70% of Asians also vote for Obama? That seems kinda surprising given that in 2004 only 56% of Asians voted for Kerry. And I never got the impression that Asians are particularly fond of African-Americans as opposed to Caucasians. By the way 62% of Asians voted for Obama over McCain in 2008. So unless Obama got blacker in four years I think there is something more going on here than just Obama being black. I think Mitt Romney failed in his campaign to appeal to minorities, even more so than McCain. But then again McCain was seen as less of the good ol' boy type and Romney's image in that regard this election was . . . yeah . . . Asians are a demographic that Republicans should easily have under their wing. They're too educated for all the anti-intellectual, racist, religious, self-centered rhetoric that the very visible Republican politicians spout though. | ||
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Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
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XoXiDe
United States620 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:18 Rassy wrote: Ok i am somewhat convinced. Though i also see a general trend in the republican party becoming less atractive for black voters during the past 2 decades... Do you have the same numbers for % of white vote going to the republicans? then we could solve this interesting isue  XoXiDe United States. November 08 2012 10:17. Posts 595 O this is even more data, its still verry difficult to draw conclusions from this though, as not only the colour of the candidate did change, the partys themselves also changed in a huge way. I'm just saying it's more party than race, and I'm sure a great other variables, but it is probable there are a few percentage points gained by having the first black President, no doubt. Wow, I'm having a tough time finding white voting trends, the data tables aren't very presentable. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:18 Rassy wrote: Ok i am somewhat convinced. Though i also see a general trend in the republican party becoming less atractive for black voters during the past 2 decades... Do you have the same numbers for % of white vote going to the republicans? then we could solve this interesting isue XoXiDe United States. November 08 2012 10:17. Posts 595 O this is even more data, its still verry difficult to draw conclusions from this though, as not only the colour of the candidate did change, the partys themselves also changed in a huge way. Form the numbers I just found on cnn, White voters are also less racists than conventional wisdom would indicate (hooray!). % of White Voters for Democratic presidential candidate 2004: 41% 2008: 43% 2012: 39% As Kwark said, certainly there are idiots on both sides, but it doesn't look like they swung the election to far in either direction (after all Trump only gets one vote =p). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27186 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:27 Souma wrote: Asians are a demographic that Republicans should easily have under their wing. They're too educated for all the anti-intellectual, racist, religious, self-centered rhetoric that the very visible Republican politicians spout though. Exactly, but they don't because they pander to the worst elements in their party and its support rather than being a bit more middle-of-the-road. Will be interested to see if the GOP changes its approach after this election | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:30 Wuster wrote: Form the numbers I just found on cnn, White voters are also less racists than conventional wisdom would indicate (hooray!). % of White Voters for Democratic presidential candidate 2004: 41% 2008: 43% 2012: 39% As Kwark said, certainly there are idiots on both sides, but it doesn't look like they swung the election to far in either direction (after all Trump only gets one vote =p). Yes, I must say I am rather proud that voters effectively disproved the saliency of the "Bradley" effect, at least insofar as results are concerned. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
Everyone said this election was going to be about the economy. Mitt Romney still won on the economy. He lost on social issues and he lost on foreign policy due to the continued hangover from Bush. Yeah, this is the most surprising thing I took away from the election. People care more about social issues than economic issues. I whiffed on that one completely. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:26 p4NDemik wrote: Everyone said this election was going to be about the economy. Mitt Romney still won on the economy. He lost on social issues and he lost on foreign policy due to the continued hangover from Bush. Romney was ahead on economy, but he didn't gain that much from it because the Republican message underestimated voters. They tried to blame everything solely on Obama, even issues that were largely caused by others, and Romney made large promises with no details to back them up. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:33 Jumbled wrote: Romney was ahead on economy, but he didn't gain that much from it because the Republican message underestimated voters. They tried to blame everything solely on Obama, even issues that were largely caused by others, and Romney made large promises with no details to back them up. I don't buy the whole "no details to back them up" argument. Remember, this is the same nation that supported a bill that we had to pass before we could know what was in it. I didn't hear any talking points coming from Democrats downgrading the validity of the ACA because of a lack of details. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Only once every 4 years there is an election, think manny of the trends are just random "noise" Only the trend that the republican party is becomming less atractive for black voters i find reliable, and i will also admit that some black people voted for obama because he was black. If i was black and republican, i would have voted for obama as well the first time (though not the 2nd time) There is nothing wrong with this btw i think. But yeah, lets stop this somewhat controversial discussion. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:32 Joedaddy wrote: Yeah, this is the most surprising thing I took away from the election. People care more about social issues than economic issues. I whiffed on that one completely. I'm also surprised. Also, I think voter turnout from the youngest demographic keeps dropping, and they are the ones who may pay more attention to social issues ('cause you *know* these will have an impact on your life) than economic issues (which, if you are in college, may seem a little abstract), so ... doubly shocked tbh. | ||
KwarK
United States44179 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:32 Joedaddy wrote: Yeah, this is the most surprising thing I took away from the election. People care more about social issues than economic issues. I whiffed on that one completely. In fairness it's not like Obama's economic plan was to set fire to the country and claim the insurance, he does have a legitimate track record on the economy. Jobs are being created, it is growing. Whether it's as much as you believe Romney would do is another matter but I don't think people voted for Obama because they didn't care at all about the economy. | ||
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Desiire
Australia191 Posts
Once you go black, you never go back. haha | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:26 p4NDemik wrote: President Bush actually tried repeatedly to pass immigration reform that would have laid a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. Since then the moderate elements of the Republican party have lost influence on the issue. McCain pushed hard for it as well during the time Bush was in office, but seems to have taken a bit of a step backwards as he decided to support Arizona SB 1070 last minute in order to better his chances at re-election. Mitt Romney has moved his party farther to the right in the issue as he casted himself as an outspoken hardliner on immigration as well as a host of other social issues. 8 years ago the party was divided and headed towards immigration reform. Right now there are still Republican members of the House and Senate who were around when Bush pushed for it, and I suspect will readily support illegal-friendly immigration reform as soon as it is politically palatable to their base. Their base recoiled on pretty much every social issue after President Obama was elected and they made the decision to cater to the base rather than stand firm on things like this. That said, it's not fair to characterize the entire party as one that hates illegals. Moderate Republicans are out there, and they don't have the hard-line stances that Mitt Romney leaned towards regarding social issues. Everyone said this election was going to be about the economy. Mitt Romney still won on the economy. He lost on social issues and he lost on foreign policy due to the continued hangover from Bush. You guys keep saying that but I'm not seeing that. I saw Arizona gunman dressed up on a Friday night calling themselves a militia and George Bush condoning it. I saw his own brother running wet foot dry foot and treating immigrants as second class citizens. All I ever see is Republicans with jingoism in their eyes. Maybe I'm wrong but it's what I've experienced in my life. On November 08 2012 10:37 KwarK wrote: In fairness it's not like Obama's economic plan was to set fire to the country and claim the insurance, he does have a legitimate track record on the economy. Jobs are being created, it is growing. Whether it's as much as you believe Romney would do is another matter but I don't think people voted for Obama because they didn't care at all about the economy. I just imagined Biden turning to Obama and saying, My lord, I have cunning plan! Then the credits from Blackadder roll as forest fires burn outside D.C. | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
On November 08 2012 10:37 KwarK wrote: In fairness it's not like Obama's economic plan was to set fire to the country and claim the insurance, he does have a legitimate track record on the economy. Jobs are being created, it is growing. Whether it's as much as you believe Romney would do is another matter but I don't think people voted for Obama because they didn't care at all about the economy. To be entirely frank, I'm not sure how anyone is looking at these election results, especially when one looks at senate wins and state issue passage, and seeing a Democratic loss on the economy. I mean, I guess you can go on relatively weak pre-election polls that pointed to Romney as being stronger on the economy when compared to Obama, but voters went into election day with jobs and the economy polling as the most important voting concerns, and the results speak for themselves. Fiscal conservatism is not as popular as some are making it out to be. | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
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