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On April 18 2012 12:26 acerockolla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:14 beatitudes wrote:
I wonder what the mindset of becoming a millionaire is doing here. Why does everyone want a job that makes you 6 digits? After working and saving money for 5 years I'll be attending a college for a degree that will cost me 15k. I'll be able to pay it all up front. Normally the most money ill be able to make with the degree will be around 50 to 60k a year, but it's perfectly acceptable to me and I'll be living a life i love. Are most of these college loans taken with the thought of "I must attend a good 4 year college to get a decent job" or "I gotta attend a good 4 year college to get my degree to get rich"?
Issues with money are all pretty sad to be honest =( and I can understand both sides of the argument. What you are hinting towards is definitely part of the issue. People are reaching beyond their capabilities. There are many causes for this, but the fact is that many people have inflated senses of self worth. We all wanted to be something amazing like a fighter pilot or rock star as a kid, but eventually we come to the realization of what we are actually capable of. There's too much "you can be anything you want to be" passed around. We also celebrate everyone going to college, even when it's obvious to everyone else it's a fruitless endeavor for the person. Every issue in the world could be solved by a parents tough love, which seems to be disappearing. I joined the military out of high school, mainly because my parents used a bit of tough love on me by not obtaining an easily obtainable scholarship. It was get some job I didn't want to do, or give the military a chance. I gave the military a chance, gained a ton of experience. Now that I appreciate school, I am one semester away from my BA with a 3.99 GPA. The degree coupled with my experience gaurantees a six figure job in the DC area. If I wasn't given a bit of tough love, I would have undoubtedly taken out school loans straight out of high school and floundered in college. I wouldn't have graduated and I would be loaded with debt. Since we all know you can't expect parents to do their job, the government must step in. This bill is obviously not the solution, but I guess it's good that it's drumming up a lot of discussion and bringing attention to the fact that the system is indeed broken.
I can certainly agree with you there. I have 6 brothers and sisters and all of us combined have under 15k of student loan debt. Much love for the quality parents who taught us how to go about things ^_^ <3
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
over 50% of graduates have a business / STEM degree, not all of these people get jobs and many of them have huge amounts of debt.
I can attest that there are certain STEM degrees in which an undergrad degree is not all that useful in terms of improving employment prospects. But, again, shouldn't the burden be on the consumer of education to realize that the product is not a good economic investment?
not everyone can do a 9-5 job where they crunch numbers and contribute nothing to the world. If you ask me the people who are useless in society are the people who sit in a cubical and can be replaced at a moments notice with someone else who can do the same thing they did in the exact same way.
Good god, there's enough illusory superiority in this thread to power an entire league of legends server.
"Look at these useless people that actually have work ethic, better that they spend other people's money getting sort-of/not really useful credentials, or do philosophizing that no one will pay for but is in fact, really useful to society."
I realize I'm not being perfectly fair with this characterization, but then again, neither are you.
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As someone who recently graduated college, I'm willing to disclose that I'm roughly 80k in debt thanks to my student loans. And this was essentially for only 3 years at a state school (I went 4 years but my first year was more or less taken care of thanks to grants/scholarships). Since my parents were unable to assist me paying for school except for cosigning for my private loans, my situation currently lies like this:
3 Private loans totaling roughly $50k after they've been repaid, these loans are for 20 years
6-7 Government funded loans totaling roughly $30k after they've been repaid, these are for 10 years
1 Sallie Mae loan for ~$3800, pretty sure that's rated for 10 years as well.
Currently, I'm paying ~$700 per month just for my loans, which compared to what I'm making thanks to the job I wouldn't have gotten without going to college, I'd say it's manageable. Granted I'll be living with parents for the next few years trying to chip away as much as I can, but the fact of the matter is that student loans are pretty affordable with a decent paying job, and I personally fail to see how it can be so difficult that loans needs to be forgiven at all. On the one hand I can understand that if you're having trouble actually finding a job and can't pay, but that's about it.
In short: Loans shouldn't be forgiven. Don't sign off on checks you won't be able to cash. Yes the system currently in place is pretty ridiculous, but it's manageable and this bill doesn't seem to propose a solution that's needed or will be helpful in the long run.
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On April 18 2012 12:36 419 wrote:Show nested quote +over 50% of graduates have a business / STEM degree, not all of these people get jobs and many of them have huge amounts of debt. But, again, shouldn't the burden be on the consumer of education to realize that the product is not a good economic investment?
Theoretically yes. But then consider that the government/public education is trying to coerce every student to go to college from the time they are 13. Young people are impressionable. Can you really expect rational consumer behavior from them based when these two things are in the way? Like I said before, most people aren't capable of meaningful introspection and critical self-assessment which further complicates things. Education is kind of an exceptional case in the market compared to how people view nearly every other good/service/long term investment.
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On April 18 2012 12:36 419 wrote:Show nested quote +over 50% of graduates have a business / STEM degree, not all of these people get jobs and many of them have huge amounts of debt. I can attest that there are certain STEM degrees in which an undergrad degree is not all that useful in terms of improving employment prospects. But, again, shouldn't the burden be on the consumer of education to realize that the product is not a good economic investment? Show nested quote +not everyone can do a 9-5 job where they crunch numbers and contribute nothing to the world. If you ask me the people who are useless in society are the people who sit in a cubical and can be replaced at a moments notice with someone else who can do the same thing they did in the exact same way. Good god, there's enough illusory superiority in this thread to power an entire league of legends server. "Look at these useless people that actually have work ethic, better that they spend other people's money getting sort-of/not really useful credentials, or do philosophizing that no one will pay for but is in fact, really useful to society." I realize I'm not being perfectly fair with this characterization, but then again, neither are you.
But the humanity majors have some of the highest employment rates out there. So why are you chastising them again?
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On April 18 2012 12:41 Battleaxe wrote:
As someone who recently graduated college, I'm willing to disclose that I'm roughly 80k in debt thanks to my student loans. And this was essentially for only 3 years at a state school (I went 4 years but my first year was more or less taken care of thanks to grants/scholarships). Since my parents were unable to assist me paying for school except for cosigning for my private loans, my situation currently lies like this:
3 Private loans totaling roughly $50k after they've been repaid, these loans are for 20 years
6-7 Government funded loans totaling roughly $30k after they've been repaid, these are for 10 years
1 Sallie Mae loan for ~$3800, pretty sure that's rated for 10 years as well.
Currently, I'm paying ~$700 per month just for my loans, which compared to what I'm making thanks to the job I wouldn't have gotten without going to college, I'd say it's manageable. Granted I'll be living with parents for the next few years trying to chip away as much as I can, but the fact of the matter is that student loans are pretty affordable with a decent paying job, and I personally fail to see how it can be so difficult that loans needs to be forgiven at all. On the one hand I can understand that if you're having trouble actually finding a job and can't pay, but that's about it.
In short: Loans shouldn't be forgiven. Don't sign off on checks you won't be able to cash. Yes the system currently in place is pretty ridiculous, but it's manageable and this bill doesn't seem to propose a solution that's needed or will be helpful in the long run.
People can't find jobs. Welcome to America in 2012.
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$700/month of student loans is insane, just fyi. In our current society/education system/reality having that kind of debt is an impossible burden for most people. You're very smart to live at home (and fortunate that you can), but a lot of parents are dumb and or their kids so they can't.
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My thoughts . If your going to undergrad and then four years of grad school and racking up 150-200k debt in order to get a job that pays under 50-60k a year. That is called poor planning, we should not reward poor planning. I mean that is just a stupid plan from start to finish.
Also a way to high percentage of the high school population is being funneled into the higher education system. People coming out of high school have no idea that you can make a very respectable living as a plumber, welder or finish carpenter. Trade schools are never mentioned by high schools as a possible next step for students coming out of high school.
Going from my roommates. The ones who received student loans and federal aid make the least effort to pay for their schooling out of pocket and find jobs in the summer.
Precisely. The government is very much guilty of making student loans overly accessible which got us into this mess in the first place. If the market for student loans were entirely free of government influence we'd be looking at a much different picture here.
The next bubble to pop will be the student loan bubble. The requirements to get one are way to low, similar to when the housing bubble burst.
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If the market for student loans wasn't completely broken by government regulation, then regulation like this wouldn't even be necessary.
They act like they are solving the problems which they created instead of creating additional problems.
The sad thing is the public buys it all. I'm losing more hope for the future on a daily basis.
Edit:
- The bill would reward graduates for entering public service professions like teaching and
firefighting.
Oh I see... Another corrupt bill pushed by the public sector unions. It all makes sense now. -_-
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 18 2012 12:43 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:36 419 wrote:over 50% of graduates have a business / STEM degree, not all of these people get jobs and many of them have huge amounts of debt. I can attest that there are certain STEM degrees in which an undergrad degree is not all that useful in terms of improving employment prospects. But, again, shouldn't the burden be on the consumer of education to realize that the product is not a good economic investment? not everyone can do a 9-5 job where they crunch numbers and contribute nothing to the world. If you ask me the people who are useless in society are the people who sit in a cubical and can be replaced at a moments notice with someone else who can do the same thing they did in the exact same way. Good god, there's enough illusory superiority in this thread to power an entire league of legends server. "Look at these useless people that actually have work ethic, better that they spend other people's money getting sort-of/not really useful credentials, or do philosophizing that no one will pay for but is in fact, really useful to society." I realize I'm not being perfectly fair with this characterization, but then again, neither are you. But the humanity majors have some of the highest employment rates out there. So why are you chastising them again?
I'm not even attacking humanities majors, I'm taking issue with the idea that somehow its objectively better to have a skillset which no one will pay for, but involves deep thinking or something, than to actually take a job in which one is 'easily replaceable'.
He uses the term 'useless in society' to describe the latter, so this isn't just me making shit up.
Whether the humanities fall under the category of "skillset no one will pay for" is kind of independent of the point I was trying to make there.
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On April 18 2012 12:45 liberal wrote:
If the market for student loans wasn't completely broken by government regulation, then regulation like this wouldn't even be necessary.
They act like they are solving the problems which they created instead of creating additional problems.
The sad thing is the public buys it all. I'm losing more hope for the future on a daily basis.
Precisely. The government is very much guilty of making student loans overly accessible which got us into this mess in the first place. If the market for student loans were entirely free of government influence we'd be looking at a much different picture here.
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On April 18 2012 12:45 419 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:43 shinosai wrote:On April 18 2012 12:36 419 wrote:over 50% of graduates have a business / STEM degree, not all of these people get jobs and many of them have huge amounts of debt. I can attest that there are certain STEM degrees in which an undergrad degree is not all that useful in terms of improving employment prospects. But, again, shouldn't the burden be on the consumer of education to realize that the product is not a good economic investment? not everyone can do a 9-5 job where they crunch numbers and contribute nothing to the world. If you ask me the people who are useless in society are the people who sit in a cubical and can be replaced at a moments notice with someone else who can do the same thing they did in the exact same way. Good god, there's enough illusory superiority in this thread to power an entire league of legends server. "Look at these useless people that actually have work ethic, better that they spend other people's money getting sort-of/not really useful credentials, or do philosophizing that no one will pay for but is in fact, really useful to society." I realize I'm not being perfectly fair with this characterization, but then again, neither are you. But the humanity majors have some of the highest employment rates out there. So why are you chastising them again? I'm not even attacking humanities majors, I'm taking issue with the idea that somehow its objectively better to have a skillset which no one will pay for, but involves deep thinking or something, than to actually take a job in which one is 'easily replaceable'. He uses the terms 'useless in society' to describe the latter, so this isn't just me making shit up. Whether the humanities fall under the category of "skillset no one will pay for" is kind of independent of the point I was trying to make there.
Fair enough.
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On April 18 2012 12:25 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:20 politik wrote:
And no. If no one will even pay you to use the skills you've learned, those skills are not useful to society profitable for major corporations.
You're right, there is plenty of good you can do with a "financially useless" degree. Many people have accomplished great things, and have improved the lives of many.
The thing you have to understand is that, well, there are 23409823409823094 other people with the same degree as you, and most of them are probably smarter. Chances are exorbitantly high that you will never accomplish anything that hundreds of others can do just as well.
This is the reason tuition is so high in the first place. Everyone is taught to believe they are a special snowflake, and can be successful just doing what they love. Unfortunately, in most cases this is subjectively false.
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On April 18 2012 12:21 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:10 IgnE wrote:On April 18 2012 12:05 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 11:58 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2012 11:56 Millitron wrote:
The real student loan problem is that not all degrees have opportunities for employment, so the people who took those degrees are stuck in thousands of dollars in debt, and are only qualified to work at McDonald's.
I don't mean to sound mean here, but what could they possibly expect when they signed up for some liberal art major? In all seriousness, what job can someone get with a degree in something like Shakespearean Drama or Classical Scuplture? I don't see many places hiring playwrights or sculptors these days.
I'm aware that this isn't the whole problem, and plenty of people with practical degrees get stuck too, but that can be solved by bigger and more frequent scholarships, without needing outlandish laws. Read a few pages back. That isn't even close to the real problem. I'll just quote it. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, humanities majors account for about 12 percent of recent graduates, and art history majors are so rare they’re lost in the noise. They account for less than 0.2 percent of working adults with college degrees, a number that is probably about right for recent graduates, too. Yet somehow art history has become the go-to example for people bemoaning the state of higher education.
A longtime acquaintance perfectly captured the dominant Internet memes in an e-mail he sent me after my last column, which was on rising tuitions. “Many people that go to college lack the smarts and/or the tenacity to benefit in any real sense,” he wrote. “Many of these people would be much better off becoming plumbers -- including financially. (No shame in that, who’re you gonna call when your pipes freeze in the middle of the night? An M.A. in Italian art?)”
While government subsidies may indeed distort the choice to go to college in the first place, it’s simply not the case that students are blissfully ignoring the job market in choosing majors. Contrary to what critics imagine, most Americans in fact go to college for what they believe to be “skill-based education.”
A quarter of them study business, by far the most popular field, and 16 percent major in one of the so-called Stem (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. Throw in economics, and you have nearly half of all graduates studying the only subjects such contemptuous pundits recognize as respectable.
The rest, however, aren’t sitting around discussing Aristotle and Foucault.
Most are studying things that sound like job preparation, including all sorts of subjects related to health and education. Even the degree with the highest rate of unemployment -- architecture, whose 13.9 percent jobless rate reflects the current construction bust -- is a pre-professional major.
Diversity of Jobs
The students who come out of school without jobs aren’t, for the most part, starry-eyed liberal arts majors but rather people who thought a degree in business, graphic design or nursing was a practical, job-oriented credential. Even the latest target of Internet mockery, a young woman the New York Times recently described as studying for a master’s in communication with hopes of doing public relations for a nonprofit, is in what she perceives as a job-training program.
The higher-education system does have real problems, including rising tuition prices that may not pay off in higher earnings. But those problems won’t be solved by assuming that if American students would just stop studying stupid subjects like philosophy and art history and buckle down and major in petroleum engineering (the highest-paid major), the economy would flourish and everyone would have lucrative careers. Funny side note: Philosophy/history majors end up with some of the highest employment rates after graduation. Right, the problem is people are taking on loans way larger than they should be and then when they come out of college and see 30k-100k in dead they wring their hands and go "wtf where did all this come from? It's not even a jab at poor people or anything, I honestly think this is more prevalent among middle class people who simply don't bother to plan or to think about their future and it's not only ignorant but inexcusable. Most poor people know they're not going to be able to afford it anyways so they don't apply. Who is giving them money? People who will get paid regardless. But you are right. Totally inexcusable for people to take out loans when everyone around them is telling them that that's the best way for them to get ahead in life, and everyone ahead of them is having a great time in college and seemingly doing ok when they graduate. Fast forward to 2009 and the jobs are gone, unemployment is skyrocketing. But the middle class people should have foreseen that. At least the lenders are still going to get their money. There's nothing wrong with taking out loans, you just have to be reasonable about it. No one is saying "go put yourself massively in debt" and it's ridiculous to think that just because someone says something you should do it. That's one of the hugest problems with America (both liberals and conservatives), most of the time people just listen to ramblings and do exactly what they say without doing their own research. And no, I'm not saying they should have foreseen it; I'm saying they shouldn't have been reckless. My parents lost a lot of money in the 2007-8 crash and now I'm not going to anywhere near the college of my choice, but oh well. Actions have consequences and some people need to realize that. Political and economic apathy in this country is absolutely retarded and it's never going to go away if we keep propping it up. You do realize the "lender" in this case is the Federal Government right? And you do realize how deep in debt it is right now? But sure, just keep piling it on. Wonder how we'll all do when it suffers
You do realize that hundreds of billions of dollars that the federal government guaranteed are going to lenders who directly lent to students in the middle of the massive education bubble right? It may be true that going forward the government is directly lending to many students, but hundreds of billions of dollars are still owed to private lenders who are making free money on bad loans to students.
I really don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn their neighbors, the everyday citizens of this country, while not pointing any fingers at the banks, capital holders, lobbyists, and financial industry that is profiting off of these bubbles by bribing the government with campaign contributions. And then when someone in Congress tries to actually stimulate the economy and help out the victims of predatory lending and corrupt industries, people are so quick to deny that aid. No one is arguing that the education industry is fine as is, or that lending and runaway tuition costs should keep going up. What sane people are saying is that this bill is a step in the right direction, people need to get out from under their massive debt, and if we don't help the younger generation in some way, we are going to have an entire cohort of people trapped under mountains of debt, with little work experience, no history of high salary or wages, and little hope for the future.
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Whoever supports this bill has no honor (said in Splinter TMNT live action movie voice).
You fulfill your obligations. If you disagree with the ridiculously high tuition and costs in the higher education sector, I plead with you to reconsider your support of subsidies (which up tuition) and the notion that an infinite amount of money should be spent on education. There used to be a high ratio of teachers to administrators. Now the ratio is nearly even, because people want to mooch off the system as a bureaucrat with ridiculous, unsustainable benefits and pensions. Also please realize the philosophy of those involved in such activities and reconsider its validity.
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On April 18 2012 12:53 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:21 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 12:10 IgnE wrote:On April 18 2012 12:05 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 11:58 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2012 11:56 Millitron wrote:
The real student loan problem is that not all degrees have opportunities for employment, so the people who took those degrees are stuck in thousands of dollars in debt, and are only qualified to work at McDonald's.
I don't mean to sound mean here, but what could they possibly expect when they signed up for some liberal art major? In all seriousness, what job can someone get with a degree in something like Shakespearean Drama or Classical Scuplture? I don't see many places hiring playwrights or sculptors these days.
I'm aware that this isn't the whole problem, and plenty of people with practical degrees get stuck too, but that can be solved by bigger and more frequent scholarships, without needing outlandish laws. Read a few pages back. That isn't even close to the real problem. I'll just quote it. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, humanities majors account for about 12 percent of recent graduates, and art history majors are so rare they’re lost in the noise. They account for less than 0.2 percent of working adults with college degrees, a number that is probably about right for recent graduates, too. Yet somehow art history has become the go-to example for people bemoaning the state of higher education.
A longtime acquaintance perfectly captured the dominant Internet memes in an e-mail he sent me after my last column, which was on rising tuitions. “Many people that go to college lack the smarts and/or the tenacity to benefit in any real sense,” he wrote. “Many of these people would be much better off becoming plumbers -- including financially. (No shame in that, who’re you gonna call when your pipes freeze in the middle of the night? An M.A. in Italian art?)”
While government subsidies may indeed distort the choice to go to college in the first place, it’s simply not the case that students are blissfully ignoring the job market in choosing majors. Contrary to what critics imagine, most Americans in fact go to college for what they believe to be “skill-based education.”
A quarter of them study business, by far the most popular field, and 16 percent major in one of the so-called Stem (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. Throw in economics, and you have nearly half of all graduates studying the only subjects such contemptuous pundits recognize as respectable.
The rest, however, aren’t sitting around discussing Aristotle and Foucault.
Most are studying things that sound like job preparation, including all sorts of subjects related to health and education. Even the degree with the highest rate of unemployment -- architecture, whose 13.9 percent jobless rate reflects the current construction bust -- is a pre-professional major.
Diversity of Jobs
The students who come out of school without jobs aren’t, for the most part, starry-eyed liberal arts majors but rather people who thought a degree in business, graphic design or nursing was a practical, job-oriented credential. Even the latest target of Internet mockery, a young woman the New York Times recently described as studying for a master’s in communication with hopes of doing public relations for a nonprofit, is in what she perceives as a job-training program.
The higher-education system does have real problems, including rising tuition prices that may not pay off in higher earnings. But those problems won’t be solved by assuming that if American students would just stop studying stupid subjects like philosophy and art history and buckle down and major in petroleum engineering (the highest-paid major), the economy would flourish and everyone would have lucrative careers. Funny side note: Philosophy/history majors end up with some of the highest employment rates after graduation. Right, the problem is people are taking on loans way larger than they should be and then when they come out of college and see 30k-100k in dead they wring their hands and go "wtf where did all this come from? It's not even a jab at poor people or anything, I honestly think this is more prevalent among middle class people who simply don't bother to plan or to think about their future and it's not only ignorant but inexcusable. Most poor people know they're not going to be able to afford it anyways so they don't apply. Who is giving them money? People who will get paid regardless. But you are right. Totally inexcusable for people to take out loans when everyone around them is telling them that that's the best way for them to get ahead in life, and everyone ahead of them is having a great time in college and seemingly doing ok when they graduate. Fast forward to 2009 and the jobs are gone, unemployment is skyrocketing. But the middle class people should have foreseen that. At least the lenders are still going to get their money. There's nothing wrong with taking out loans, you just have to be reasonable about it. No one is saying "go put yourself massively in debt" and it's ridiculous to think that just because someone says something you should do it. That's one of the hugest problems with America (both liberals and conservatives), most of the time people just listen to ramblings and do exactly what they say without doing their own research. And no, I'm not saying they should have foreseen it; I'm saying they shouldn't have been reckless. My parents lost a lot of money in the 2007-8 crash and now I'm not going to anywhere near the college of my choice, but oh well. Actions have consequences and some people need to realize that. Political and economic apathy in this country is absolutely retarded and it's never going to go away if we keep propping it up. You do realize the "lender" in this case is the Federal Government right? And you do realize how deep in debt it is right now? But sure, just keep piling it on. Wonder how we'll all do when it suffers You do realize that hundreds of billions of dollars that the federal government guaranteed are going to lenders who directly lent to students in the middle of the massive education bubble right? It may be true that going forward the government is directly lending to many students, but hundreds of billions of dollars are still owed to private lenders who are making free money on bad loans to students. I really don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn their neighbors, the everyday citizens of this country, while not pointing any fingers at the banks, capital holders, lobbyists, and financial industry that is profiting off of these bubbles by bribing the government with campaign contributions. And then when someone in Congress tries to actually stimulate the economy and help out the victims of predatory lending and corrupt industries, people are so quick to deny that aid. No one is arguing that the education industry is fine as is, or that lending and runaway tuition costs should keep going up. What sane people are saying is that this bill is a step in the right direction, people need to get out from under their massive debt, and if we don't help the younger generation in some way, we are going to have an entire cohort of people trapped under mountains of debt, with little work experience, no history of high salary or wages, and little hope for the future.
Then shouldn't we be harping on the federal government for doing that? The lenders want to make money, but the federal government "should" be trying to help people get through college.
I'm pretty sure hate is directed plentily at the big banks/corps/etc. It's all over the media and everyone says it, from both sides of the spectrum. And well they certainly are a problem, one of the biggest reasons they are a problem is because of how stupid some consumers/people can be. Smacking down the corporations might help a little, but if people are still going to make retarded choices, then the problem is never going to end.
And no, this bill is not a step in the right direction. It's a bandaid fix on a severed arm that will probably tear off. It might help a bit right now, but it's not going to in the long run and it just gives people an incentive to be even more lax/risky/etc. There needs to be a clear redesignment of the college (or education overall) system in general, not just little things like this because they really aren't going to help. This is just a vote grabber at heart and it really pisses me off.
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On April 18 2012 12:44 feanor1 wrote:My thoughts . If your going to undergrad and then four years of grad school and racking up 150-200k debt in order to get a job that pays under 50-60k a year. That is called poor planning, we should not reward poor planning. I mean that is just a stupid plan from start to finish. Also a way to high percentage of the high school population is being funneled into the higher education system. People coming out of high school have no idea that you can make a very respectable living as a plumber, welder or finish carpenter. Trade schools are never mentioned by high schools as a possible next step for students coming out of high school. Going from my roommates. The ones who received student loans and federal aid make the least effort to pay for their schooling out of pocket and find jobs in the summer. Show nested quote +Precisely. The government is very much guilty of making student loans overly accessible which got us into this mess in the first place. If the market for student loans were entirely free of government influence we'd be looking at a much different picture here. The next bubble to pop will be the student loan bubble. The requirements to get one are way to low, similar to when the housing bubble burst.
This is why I am thankful to have gone to a good high school where after you pass a class on Industrial Safety, you are allowed to sign up for vocational classes like automotives, construction which branches into specific trades like plumbing & electrical. You also have a Metals class where you can get into sheet metal work, welding, or machinery like lathes, etc.
More high schools should do this and tell students "hey, if you don't want to go to college you can learn a trade instead, often getting paid while you learn and you end up making pretty good money for the time you put into it."
Society seems to put a stigma on them when in reality they are a far better choice in terms of the cost and job opportunities for most people. I think they should implement it into more high schools out there and give students some idea of what those jobs are like, and they can decide for themselves.
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On April 18 2012 13:05 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 12:53 IgnE wrote:On April 18 2012 12:21 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 12:10 IgnE wrote:On April 18 2012 12:05 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 11:58 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2012 11:56 Millitron wrote:
The real student loan problem is that not all degrees have opportunities for employment, so the people who took those degrees are stuck in thousands of dollars in debt, and are only qualified to work at McDonald's.
I don't mean to sound mean here, but what could they possibly expect when they signed up for some liberal art major? In all seriousness, what job can someone get with a degree in something like Shakespearean Drama or Classical Scuplture? I don't see many places hiring playwrights or sculptors these days.
I'm aware that this isn't the whole problem, and plenty of people with practical degrees get stuck too, but that can be solved by bigger and more frequent scholarships, without needing outlandish laws. Read a few pages back. That isn't even close to the real problem. I'll just quote it. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, humanities majors account for about 12 percent of recent graduates, and art history majors are so rare they’re lost in the noise. They account for less than 0.2 percent of working adults with college degrees, a number that is probably about right for recent graduates, too. Yet somehow art history has become the go-to example for people bemoaning the state of higher education.
A longtime acquaintance perfectly captured the dominant Internet memes in an e-mail he sent me after my last column, which was on rising tuitions. “Many people that go to college lack the smarts and/or the tenacity to benefit in any real sense,” he wrote. “Many of these people would be much better off becoming plumbers -- including financially. (No shame in that, who’re you gonna call when your pipes freeze in the middle of the night? An M.A. in Italian art?)”
While government subsidies may indeed distort the choice to go to college in the first place, it’s simply not the case that students are blissfully ignoring the job market in choosing majors. Contrary to what critics imagine, most Americans in fact go to college for what they believe to be “skill-based education.”
A quarter of them study business, by far the most popular field, and 16 percent major in one of the so-called Stem (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. Throw in economics, and you have nearly half of all graduates studying the only subjects such contemptuous pundits recognize as respectable.
The rest, however, aren’t sitting around discussing Aristotle and Foucault.
Most are studying things that sound like job preparation, including all sorts of subjects related to health and education. Even the degree with the highest rate of unemployment -- architecture, whose 13.9 percent jobless rate reflects the current construction bust -- is a pre-professional major.
Diversity of Jobs
The students who come out of school without jobs aren’t, for the most part, starry-eyed liberal arts majors but rather people who thought a degree in business, graphic design or nursing was a practical, job-oriented credential. Even the latest target of Internet mockery, a young woman the New York Times recently described as studying for a master’s in communication with hopes of doing public relations for a nonprofit, is in what she perceives as a job-training program.
The higher-education system does have real problems, including rising tuition prices that may not pay off in higher earnings. But those problems won’t be solved by assuming that if American students would just stop studying stupid subjects like philosophy and art history and buckle down and major in petroleum engineering (the highest-paid major), the economy would flourish and everyone would have lucrative careers. Funny side note: Philosophy/history majors end up with some of the highest employment rates after graduation. Right, the problem is people are taking on loans way larger than they should be and then when they come out of college and see 30k-100k in dead they wring their hands and go "wtf where did all this come from? It's not even a jab at poor people or anything, I honestly think this is more prevalent among middle class people who simply don't bother to plan or to think about their future and it's not only ignorant but inexcusable. Most poor people know they're not going to be able to afford it anyways so they don't apply. Who is giving them money? People who will get paid regardless. But you are right. Totally inexcusable for people to take out loans when everyone around them is telling them that that's the best way for them to get ahead in life, and everyone ahead of them is having a great time in college and seemingly doing ok when they graduate. Fast forward to 2009 and the jobs are gone, unemployment is skyrocketing. But the middle class people should have foreseen that. At least the lenders are still going to get their money. There's nothing wrong with taking out loans, you just have to be reasonable about it. No one is saying "go put yourself massively in debt" and it's ridiculous to think that just because someone says something you should do it. That's one of the hugest problems with America (both liberals and conservatives), most of the time people just listen to ramblings and do exactly what they say without doing their own research. And no, I'm not saying they should have foreseen it; I'm saying they shouldn't have been reckless. My parents lost a lot of money in the 2007-8 crash and now I'm not going to anywhere near the college of my choice, but oh well. Actions have consequences and some people need to realize that. Political and economic apathy in this country is absolutely retarded and it's never going to go away if we keep propping it up. You do realize the "lender" in this case is the Federal Government right? And you do realize how deep in debt it is right now? But sure, just keep piling it on. Wonder how we'll all do when it suffers You do realize that hundreds of billions of dollars that the federal government guaranteed are going to lenders who directly lent to students in the middle of the massive education bubble right? It may be true that going forward the government is directly lending to many students, but hundreds of billions of dollars are still owed to private lenders who are making free money on bad loans to students. I really don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn their neighbors, the everyday citizens of this country, while not pointing any fingers at the banks, capital holders, lobbyists, and financial industry that is profiting off of these bubbles by bribing the government with campaign contributions. And then when someone in Congress tries to actually stimulate the economy and help out the victims of predatory lending and corrupt industries, people are so quick to deny that aid. No one is arguing that the education industry is fine as is, or that lending and runaway tuition costs should keep going up. What sane people are saying is that this bill is a step in the right direction, people need to get out from under their massive debt, and if we don't help the younger generation in some way, we are going to have an entire cohort of people trapped under mountains of debt, with little work experience, no history of high salary or wages, and little hope for the future. Then shouldn't we be harping on the federal government for doing that? The lenders want to make money, but the federal government "should" be trying to help people get through college. I'm pretty sure hate is directed plentily at the big banks/corps/etc. It's all over the media and everyone says it, from both sides of the spectrum. And well they certainly are a problem, one of the biggest reasons they are a problem is because of how stupid some consumers/people can be. Smacking down the corporations might help a little, but if people are still going to make retarded choices, then the problem is never going to end. And no, this bill is not a step in the right direction. It's a bandaid fix on a severed arm that will probably tear off. It might help a bit right now, but it's not going to in the long run and it just gives people an incentive to be even more lax/risky/etc. There needs to be a clear redesignment of the college (or education overall) system in general, not just little things like this because they really aren't going to help. This is just a vote grabber at heart and it really pisses me off.
Problem even in health care today. They just want our votes, so they provide them band-aid solutions to keep us happy for a little bit while never getting to the root of the problem (for the long term) because that kind of action usually is not a big vote-winning thing. In the end its all money, all that big corp lobbyist bs etc. Basically government doesn't REALLY stand for the people anymore, hence why i wouldn't even think about unloading a child into this world of shit.
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I worked a job for two years in high school and had a summer job during college where i volunteered to work up to 62 hours in a week.
Some people work hard to pay for what they have, some people just want everything handed to them. It will never change. Its a shame.
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EPT
