EPTStudent Loan Forgiveness Act - Page 9
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Stress
United States980 Posts
| ||
|
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:19 Stratos_speAr wrote: No, there are not a lot of jobs out there, and it's a load of conservative bull to actually believe this. Not only that, even in regions where there ARE a lot of meaningless, crappy jobs in fields people don't want, people don't want these jobs because they don't end up being worth the work, not because people just don't like the job. Hey guys, poor people will obviously never be able to become leading intellectuals in any field, so they just shouldn't ever bother going to anything put a cheap community college because they can't really offer that much to society or their loved ones. If you want to debate, speak in a reasonable tone, otherwise I'm not really interested. Contrary to popular belief, community colleges don't automatically equal shit. They can and do actually give out decent degrees that lead to well paying jobs. And if they don't have the degfree you want, many of them offer guranteed transfer programs to major universities after two years. Yeah we would all like to go to the best college, but unfortuneately that's not possible, and it's not fair to hinder others in that regard. I would love to go to Stanford, but I would not feel comfortable knowing I was going on the money of others. (And those others are not "rich" people or anything, most of them would be lower-middle class.) edit: For the record, I agree the system is pretty shitty. But this is not the way to go about it. It's just prolonging the problem and pushing it aside and we all know it's mostly for the elction. | ||
|
kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:28 Drowsy wrote: Tuition costs and the cost of attending university have skyrocketed several hundred percent since your parents time. Spending 10% of your income for 10 years is probably still well beyond what they paid after inflation is controlled for. The total student loan debt in America is comparable to the total credit card debt, and 4 year degrees are only growing less and less useful. I thank the lord every day that I only graduated with 7k in loan debt from attending a relatively inexpensive institution, living in impoverished circumstances, taking a few classes at community college during summers, and getting a few scholarships my last 2 years. I was totally unable to find a job after graduating and even now find myself in a field where a college degree is near worthless (I'm a personal trainer). I would just be so god damn fucked if I had like 30k+ debt like a lot of friends I know. 800%+ | ||
|
Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
On April 18 2012 09:34 sc2superfan101 wrote: well then maybe we should change the system instead of fucking over everyone who isn't a student in every way possible as compensation. HOW DARE YOU MENTION THAT WITH A SERIOUS FACE ON  + Show Spoiler + lol, jk | ||
|
ElvisWayCool
United States437 Posts
On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote: i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash. This is how problems don't get solved. Or how no problems get solved. Either way, who are you to defend you're parents debt? They made their own choices, they should live with the results. | ||
|
Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
I'm glad to see something like this come up, but I'm not American and it's a little late for me anyway. | ||
|
Craton
United States17296 Posts
On April 18 2012 09:34 Kazeyonoma wrote: it's also stupid for responsible individuals who saved up money for their kids educations, and sent them to college and paid for them in full, what about them? Will this loan retroactively give them back money for being financially stable? Have you even looked at how borderline corrupt student loans are in the US? It's not even a case of people over-borrowing, but rather the system being designed to fuck people with student loans. Have a taste of it, even if this isn't a totally accurate picture: http://ninjageneration.com/2011/02/student-loan-scam-flowchart/ | ||
|
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:31 Stress wrote: I want less federal government, not more. The problem with colleges is that they practically force everyone into them now, it wasn't that way 30 years ago. The number of people I have meet that shouldn't be/don't want to be in college is astounding. Can you really blame them though? All their lives it was forced down their throats from their parents, mentors, and whatever education systems they attended. It takes a lot of guts and brutal honesty to look inward and realize you aren't college material when 80%+ of your classmates senior year of high school will be attending in some capacity (though far fewer will finish). I just don't think you can really expect that from most middle class 17-18 year old kids. Hell, most adults aren't capable of harsh enough introspection to make that kind of call. You're basically asking the left half of the cognitive bell curve to acknowledge their own intellectual limitations, which is surely impossible precisely because of those limitations. There's just been such a huge societal push for everyone to earn 4 year degrees that spans back decades. How could it be so simple to reverse this widely held belief? Even assuming this were possible, there's a very imminent threat of the student loan bubble, and reversing the trend of too many people attending college would take much longer than before the bubble actually bursts. | ||
|
acerockolla
United States219 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:39 Grobyc wrote: I can't believe there's people upset over this and how they could do without loans themselves, so no one else should need it. Good for you, I'm glad you didn't need student loans, but poor people aren't able to do that when they are using their money from working part-time in school to pay for shelter and feed themselves. My parents weren't able to pay for my education, and I don't expect them to either, so I rely on loans, and this is clearly for people who are in my boat. Is it fair? Perhaps not, but life isn't fair. I'm glad to see something like this come up, but I'm not American and it's a little late for me anyway. It's because it's a "solution" that completely ignores the real problems. Anyone yammering about being able to go without loans is really irrelevant. The system is flawed and could use a drastic overhaul, similar to our tax code. Sweeping the problem underneath the rug does not make it go away. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Do people actually think it's preferable for these students to default? When someone defaults on a loan, it hurts a hell of a lot of people indirectly. | ||
|
Asol
Sweden109 Posts
Don't you want the American people to become.. well more educated? In Sweden you're pretty much fucked without a degree, and well.. I'm sure some people don't enjoy studying or school for several reasons, but don't you want to get an education? I'd happily pay for everyone to have a education, that way I believe that we humans will evolve. The more people who have an education the smarter the population is. I'm not saying that you are stupid or anything if you don't have a degree (don't take it this way, not all). but isn't generally a educated population a better population? Surely they can make more informed and simply smarter decisions than a un-educated population? | ||
|
UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
This will be a HUGE (HUUUUUUUUUUGE) blow to the income banks make from student loans. This fucks with the economy and would likely result in either HUGE increases in interest rates across all loans to make up for the loss, or the lack of offering student loans in the first place (which in turn would cause the government to force them to offer them which would in turn force the first issue, which would in turn cause the government to mandate lower interest rates which would in turn drive banks out of business which would in turn ruin jobs and make it so NO ONE can afford to go to college which would in turn make private universities go bankrupt which would in turn force government subsidy of public university... you know what, you get the picture, go read Atlas Shrugged if you want the whole story.) Bad plan. | ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:50 Asol wrote: Quick question here from a swede: Don't you want the American people to become.. well more educated? In Sweden you're pretty much fucked without a degree, and well.. I'm sure some people don't enjoy studying or school for several reasons, but don't you want to get an education? I'd happily pay for everyone to have a education, that way I believe that we humans will evolve. The more people who have an education the smarter the population is. I'm not saying that you are stupid or anything if you don't have a degree (don't take it this way, not all). but isn't generally a educated population a better population? Surely they can make more informed and simply smarter decisions than a un-educated population? Unfortunately, a large portion of the American population is either 1) too selfish and self-centered to think this way or 2) too foolish to think long-term like this. | ||
|
Millitron
United States2611 Posts
I don't mean to sound mean here, but what could they possibly expect when they signed up for some liberal art major? In all seriousness, what job can someone get with a degree in something like Shakespearean Drama or Classical Scuplture? I don't see many places hiring playwrights or sculptors these days. I'm aware that this isn't the whole problem, and plenty of people with practical degrees get stuck too, but that can be solved by bigger and more frequent scholarships, without needing outlandish laws. | ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:56 Millitron wrote: The real student loan problem is that not all degrees have opportunities for employment, so the people who took those degrees are stuck in thousands of dollars in debt, and are only qualified to work at McDonald's. I don't mean to sound mean here, but what could they possibly expect when they signed up for some liberal art major? In all seriousness, what job can someone get with a degree in something like Shakespearean Drama or Classical Scuplture? I don't see many places hiring playwrights or sculptors these days. I'm aware that this isn't the whole problem, and plenty of people with practical degrees get stuck too, but that can be solved by bigger and more frequent scholarships, without needing outlandish laws. Read a few pages back. That isn't even close to the real problem. I'll just quote it. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, humanities majors account for about 12 percent of recent graduates, and art history majors are so rare they’re lost in the noise. They account for less than 0.2 percent of working adults with college degrees, a number that is probably about right for recent graduates, too. Yet somehow art history has become the go-to example for people bemoaning the state of higher education. A longtime acquaintance perfectly captured the dominant Internet memes in an e-mail he sent me after my last column, which was on rising tuitions. “Many people that go to college lack the smarts and/or the tenacity to benefit in any real sense,” he wrote. “Many of these people would be much better off becoming plumbers -- including financially. (No shame in that, who’re you gonna call when your pipes freeze in the middle of the night? An M.A. in Italian art?)” While government subsidies may indeed distort the choice to go to college in the first place, it’s simply not the case that students are blissfully ignoring the job market in choosing majors. Contrary to what critics imagine, most Americans in fact go to college for what they believe to be “skill-based education.” A quarter of them study business, by far the most popular field, and 16 percent major in one of the so-called Stem (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. Throw in economics, and you have nearly half of all graduates studying the only subjects such contemptuous pundits recognize as respectable. The rest, however, aren’t sitting around discussing Aristotle and Foucault. Most are studying things that sound like job preparation, including all sorts of subjects related to health and education. Even the degree with the highest rate of unemployment -- architecture, whose 13.9 percent jobless rate reflects the current construction bust -- is a pre-professional major. Diversity of Jobs The students who come out of school without jobs aren’t, for the most part, starry-eyed liberal arts majors but rather people who thought a degree in business, graphic design or nursing was a practical, job-oriented credential. Even the latest target of Internet mockery, a young woman the New York Times recently described as studying for a master’s in communication with hopes of doing public relations for a nonprofit, is in what she perceives as a job-training program. The higher-education system does have real problems, including rising tuition prices that may not pay off in higher earnings. But those problems won’t be solved by assuming that if American students would just stop studying stupid subjects like philosophy and art history and buckle down and major in petroleum engineering (the highest-paid major), the economy would flourish and everyone would have lucrative careers. Funny side note: Philosophy/history majors end up with some of the highest employment rates after graduation. | ||
|
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:18 acerockolla wrote: Sadly, this is a price you pay for being stupid. There are consequences for things in the real world. Would you do relentless research before buying a house or car worth over $100k? I sure would. Research would tell you that law degrees are mostly for suckers in that they generally get you low paying jobs with long hours. Unless you're going to a top tier school or know someone, it is a horrible investment. I'm speaking from experience here. I thought long and hard about it. I decided not to go to law school for these very reasons. Even today at the school I go to, everyone wants to go to law school. I always want to burst their bubble, but I know they won't listen. I guess the real problem could be said that law schools should stop propagating the myth, but if people jump relatively blindly into debt... whose fault is that? I think ultimately expecting people to simply wise up is a poor one when there's been a decades long push for everyone to attend college that won't easily be reversed. What ultimately needs to happen is that student loans need to become far less available and accessible to students. I think some active discrimination needs to happen as well; your ability to procure loans ought to be based directly off your prospects of actually graduating and finding employment in your field of study. So the communications major in the fraternity with a 2.2 gpa simply doesn't have the same access to the same loans a kid in a nursing program with a 3.8 does. Right now I bet you could make the argument that those of lesser academic merit/employment marketability are actually more likely to take out loans because they're less likely to get merit based financial aid. Right now there's a big systematic problem that is one of the root causes of this debt bubble; colleges have made the process of getting a loan too straightforward and too easy. Its a perverse incentive structure because they aren't the ones bearing the burden of the default risk and their interests are maximized when loans become easy to take out because then they can admit more students and get more public funding and continue growing out of control. The bill in the original post isn't meant to address this problem; its jut to dampen the effects of the bubble bursting. It may or may not be a good idea, but something needs to be done to the big systematic problems actually fueling the bubble as well. | ||
|
dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote: Unfortunately, a large portion of the American population is either 1) too selfish and self-centered to think this way or 2) too foolish to think long-term like this. i'll happily pay for your education if you pay for my education. oh, wait, this bill says that because i can afford to pay for my education that nobody is going to help me. so, the government denied me financial aid when i applied for school, i had to work through school and because i made good choices and kept my debt manageable, i now am being denied government aid again. | ||
|
Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:28 Drowsy wrote: Tuition costs and the cost of attending university have skyrocketed several hundred percent since your parents' time. Spending 10% of your income for 10 years is probably still well beyond what they paid after inflation is controlled for. The total student loan debt in America is comparable to the total credit card debt, and 4 year degrees are only growing less and less useful. I thank the lord every day that I only graduated with 7k in loan debt from attending a relatively inexpensive institution, living in impoverished circumstances, taking a few classes at community college during summers, and getting a few scholarships my last 2 years. I was totally unable to find a job after graduating and even now find myself in a field where a college degree is near worthless (I'm a personal trainer). I would just be so god damn fucked if I had like 30k+ debt like a lot of friends I know. I think it also bears mentioning that the standard for being viable candidates in certain fields necessitates higher graduate degrees. For example, If I were to apply to jobs as a college professor I %99.9 of the time must have a PhD either in hand or be essentially ABD. A masters will not cut it, nor will a bachelors (has nothing to do with one qualifications). This was not the case 30 and 40 years ago for a lot of fields of study. Something to bear in mind. | ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 18 2012 12:01 Drowsy wrote: I think ultimately expecting people to simply wise up is a poor one when there's been a decades long push for everyone to attend college that won't easily be reversed. What ultimately needs to happen is that student loans need to become far less available and accessible to students. I think some active discrimination needs to happen as well; your ability to procure loans ought to be based directly off your prospects of actually graduating and finding employment in your field of study. So the communications major in the fraternity with a 2.2 gpa simply doesn't have the same access to the same loans a kid in a nursing program with a 3.8 does. Right now I bet you could make the argument that those of lesser academic merit/employment marketability are actually more likely to take out loans because they're less likely to get merit based financial aid. I really doubt you could, and that's fairly insulting to make that suggestion. Also, I find it highly disturbing that we want to just discriminate against what people want to do with their lives. What kind of society would we have if we only encouraged people to be scientists/business people? Do you really want to tell me that our culture doesn't need arts/humanities/social sciences? | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:51 UmiNotsuki wrote: This is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea. I say this as a student expecting to carry hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt when I graduate. This will be a HUGE (HUUUUUUUUUUGE) blow to the income banks make from student loans. This fucks with the economy and would likely result in either HUGE increases in interest rates across all loans to make up for the loss, or the lack of offering student loans in the first place (which in turn would cause the government to force them to offer them which would in turn force the first issue, which would in turn cause the government to mandate lower interest rates which would in turn drive banks out of business which would in turn ruin jobs and make it so NO ONE can afford to go to college which would in turn make private universities go bankrupt which would in turn force government subsidy of public university... you know what, you get the picture, go read Atlas Shrugged if you want the whole story.) Bad plan. You don't know what you are talking about. User was warned for this post (low content). | ||
| ||
