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On April 17 2012 21:14 AUFKLARUNG wrote:
I would like to contradict the claim in the OP that this is not the usual "abuse in the workplace". You see this is where the real problem, the real seed of discrimination lie. Once we begin to rationalized degrees of opportunities and incidence of abuse, then we begin to normalize certain abuses. I daresay call for total equality between genders, with abuses to women, regardless of the mitigating or aggravating circumstance met with utmost punishment. You see this is not an if-but situation, there is no conditions to these. It is a simple matter of one, usually a man, taking advantage of power simply because he can. That is why this is a serious and black and white issue.
I see your point, but surely you understand that the conditions of being in the military and being in the middle of war is somewhat different than the usual 9-5 pencil pushing job in the city. That's exactly the reason why I wrote there is a need to review the process of conducting psychologicals tests among the members.
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On April 17 2012 20:54 B.I.G. wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel the military is no place for women. Not because of sexist reasons but war and whatnot doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, and these are just examples on how that could turn out..
Edit: It seems to be a survival of the fittest, and if some of these women arent strong enough to defend themselves against the others then I just think its to dangerous.
Plenty of men are defenseless against other men.
There is no reason to be sexist.
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On April 17 2012 21:05 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 20:54 B.I.G. wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel the military is no place for women. Not because of sexist reasons but war and whatnot doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, and these are just examples on how that could turn out..
Edit: It seems to be a survival of the fittest, and if some of these women arent strong enough to defend themselves against the others then I just think its to dangerous. No-one can defend themselves from every threat at every time. You are supposed to be able to utterly rely on your comrades in arms, and not to need to defend yourself from them. If soldiers can't rely on each other in combat then military operations fall apart. The problem isn't that these women didn't "defend themselves", it is that some soldiers raped them. If those soldiers are willing to do that to people they serve alongside, who have military training, what would they be willing to do to the civilians they encounter on deployment? And what reaction would this level of indifference in the response of the command to accusations engender in a population already unhappy with the military presence?
But you can't utterly rely on your comrades, its the human nature that is the problem. Also rape is common when you put females in a male dominated place it allways has happened and it will continue to happen, nomatter how wrong it is that is a fact.
we can try as hard as we want the world will never be perfect, and woman will allways be putting themselves at risk in these situations
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 17 2012 21:54 ElementEighty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 21:05 -_-Quails wrote:On April 17 2012 20:54 B.I.G. wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel the military is no place for women. Not because of sexist reasons but war and whatnot doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, and these are just examples on how that could turn out..
Edit: It seems to be a survival of the fittest, and if some of these women arent strong enough to defend themselves against the others then I just think its to dangerous. No-one can defend themselves from every threat at every time. You are supposed to be able to utterly rely on your comrades in arms, and not to need to defend yourself from them. If soldiers can't rely on each other in combat then military operations fall apart. The problem isn't that these women didn't "defend themselves", it is that some soldiers raped them. If those soldiers are willing to do that to people they serve alongside, who have military training, what would they be willing to do to the civilians they encounter on deployment? And what reaction would this level of indifference in the response of the command to accusations engender in a population already unhappy with the military presence? But you can't utterly rely on your comrades, its the human nature that is the problem. Also rape is common when you put females in a male dominated place it allways has happened and it will continue to happen, nomatter how wrong it is that is a fact. we can try as hard as we want the world will never be perfect, and woman will allways be putting themselves at risk in these situations
B.I.G is saying that "the military is no place for women".
Keeping women out of the military because men might rape them is no better than keeping blacks out of schools because whites will harass them (Little Rock, 1957, comes to mind).
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On April 17 2012 19:35 gugarutz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 19:23 MooseMasher wrote:
Also, I find it ironic to call for proper mental checking of people wanting to have as their job to kill other people...
it's not their job to kill other people but to protect the people of their country, i hope everyone protecting me has a healthy mind.
I dont quite agree that is what western military forces is being used for, but let's not argue about that. I was just pointing out that killing another human being is a horrible act, and people training hard to do it (for any reason) are probably not entirely sane.
By no means does that make them less responsible for rape and other (war) crimes they might commit. I was just bringing it up to show on how many levels this situation (women being raped being labeled as mentally ill) is fucked up.
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On April 17 2012 21:54 ElementEighty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 21:05 -_-Quails wrote:On April 17 2012 20:54 B.I.G. wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel the military is no place for women. Not because of sexist reasons but war and whatnot doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, and these are just examples on how that could turn out..
Edit: It seems to be a survival of the fittest, and if some of these women arent strong enough to defend themselves against the others then I just think its to dangerous. No-one can defend themselves from every threat at every time. You are supposed to be able to utterly rely on your comrades in arms, and not to need to defend yourself from them. If soldiers can't rely on each other in combat then military operations fall apart. The problem isn't that these women didn't "defend themselves", it is that some soldiers raped them. If those soldiers are willing to do that to people they serve alongside, who have military training, what would they be willing to do to the civilians they encounter on deployment? And what reaction would this level of indifference in the response of the command to accusations engender in a population already unhappy with the military presence? But you can't utterly rely on your comrades, its the human nature that is the problem. Also rape is common when you put females in a male dominated place it allways has happened and it will continue to happen, nomatter how wrong it is that is a fact. we can try as hard as we want the world will never be perfect, and woman will allways be putting themselves at risk in these situations
I don't want to give up that easily I guess. I think we just have to set the parameters so that we can avoid and discourage these things from happening.
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I'm very skeptical about claims like that. Unless there are witnesses, who says that the women aren't lying about consensual sex and have other motives?
For me: No witnesses or hard evidence = no case.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
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On April 17 2012 22:24 Psychobabas wrote:
I'm very skeptical about claims like that. Unless there are witnesses, who says that the women aren't lying about consensual sex and have other motives?
For me: No witnesses or hard evidence = no case.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
What other motives could they have?
Also, rape cases rarely have witnesses and depending on the time it took them from it happening to them finding the courage (rape is causing great psychological harm, it's not like "hey boss, i just come from being raped") to talk to the superiors, there might not be physical evidence.
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On April 17 2012 22:24 Psychobabas wrote:
I'm very skeptical about claims like that. Unless there are witnesses, who says that the women aren't lying about consensual sex and have other motives?
For me: No witnesses or hard evidence = no case.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
That's why there should have been an investigation into each report...
With no immediate investigation, most things constituting hard evidence are destroyed within hours (semen samples) or disappear in days (bruises). The investigation is needed to record evidence when it exists.
Few rapes have witnesses, just as few murders, kidnappings and muggings do.
Also, there is a very low rate of false reports of rape.
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USA army again. Everytime I wonder how it is possible for it to be so fucked up.
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On April 17 2012 22:24 Psychobabas wrote:
I'm very skeptical about claims like that. Unless there are witnesses, who says that the women aren't lying about consensual sex and have other motives?
For me: No witnesses or hard evidence = no case.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
Being skeptical shouldn't equal dismissing the accusations and assuming that the women are liers.
Making a case takes effort and hard evidence can be hard, maybe impossible, to find. But it's worth it because even a slight risk of being declared guilty is a huge deterrent.
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NCO's and Officers look after their own and protect the unit reputation at all costs. I'm a veteran and the process was sickening. Some guys of rank could repeatedly get in trouble without loss of rank or any action of consequence taken against them. Disciplne is left to the disgression of the commanding officer or in practice the 1st sergeant.
When i made NCO it was like a big welcome into a frat, your supposed to enjoy your new status inflict the same punishment you suffered through and all i could do was count days till my time was up.
This story is easily believable and all the more sickening for it. An outside force should be provided for these kind of reports and investigation should be untamperable. I never dealt with rape reports but racism allegations were treated in the same manner, laughed off or ripped up by the top, in favor of status quo.
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So if they cannot defend 1vs1 in a bathroom how are they supposed to do in real combat? If I enlisted in the military and deployed into a warzone where physical strength is of critical importance then I'd make sure first that I am at least in the same condition as my fellow soldiers are. Gender doesn't matter. They were unfit for duty.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 17 2012 19:25 Bobgrimly wrote:
Best thing to discuss is why have all armies not be outlawed. That would solve the problem. Anything else is just words in the wind. End war... end killing... end rape. Well killing and rape will most likely still happen but at least it would be at a reduced rate.
You can't be serious?
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On April 17 2012 22:43 scarrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 19:25 Bobgrimly wrote:
Best thing to discuss is why have all armies not be outlawed. That would solve the problem. Anything else is just words in the wind. End war... end killing... end rape. Well killing and rape will most likely still happen but at least it would be at a reduced rate. You can't be serious?
And what exactly is so bad about not having war? I dont think rape would cease, but the world would be a better place if there were no wars between any nations.
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i am currently active duty in the US army, and these kind of things do happen. it's really a shame. i've been serving in my current unit for a little over a year and i've seen something similar to these events happen a few times. i've known two woman who have been raped and diagnosed with some sort of mental condition afterwards, but in this case i actually noticed the difference, so i don't think that they were "personality disorders," but unfortunately after the incident they were most definitely not fit to serve, as sad as that sounds. however, in both cases the victim's chain of command helped and acted as they should, rather than just ignoring them. the army takes this kind of thing very, very seriously and these isolated events definitely do not show how the army, and the DoD as a whole, view these incidents. if the next level up in your chain of command won't help you, you have every right to just skip over them to report these kinds of matters to their higher ups. unfortunately this is not always possible, but you always have a chaplain who you can call to help you with these kinds of things. every chaplain i have met i would 100% trust to deal with these matters in a very serious and urgent manner.
it's really a huge shame that a service-member could do this to another service-member and give the military a bad name like this. it's also a shame that people will look at isolated events like this and assume the military as a whole does not care about these matters.
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I feel stunned to see how many people seems to think that women are unfit for the military. I mean, shooting people doesn't require much physical strenght. On the other hand, if find it extremely disturbing that every military body is consituted of some of the most uncivilized people in the world. I don't say that out of spite for the soldiers, but from not only my experience but also from the way these people are trained.
When you think about it, isolating people from the world, training them to obey without thinking and preparing them to kill can't make them better. So if a soldier is already half insane, or violent, it will necessary enhance such tendencies. In my mind the biggest problem is the isolation from the society. If they don't think they belong with the civilians, that mean they don't think they have to abide by their rules.
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On April 17 2012 22:31 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 22:24 Psychobabas wrote:
I'm very skeptical about claims like that. Unless there are witnesses, who says that the women aren't lying about consensual sex and have other motives?
For me: No witnesses or hard evidence = no case.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean it is true. That's why there should have been an investigation into each report... With no immediate investigation, most things constituting hard evidence are destroyed within hours (semen samples) or disappear in days (bruises). The investigation is needed to record evidence when it exists. Few rapes have witnesses, just as few murders, kidnappings and muggings do. Also, there is a very low rate of false reports of rape.
I wouldn't call 3% very low...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
The true problem when it comes to rape is that you can't tell the difference between a rape and consensual sex by a gynacological examination, so you'll have to get other evidence that there was actually a rape happening which is VERY hard as most things can be explained by the perpetrator claiming consensual sex.
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On April 17 2012 21:57 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 21:54 ElementEighty wrote:On April 17 2012 21:05 -_-Quails wrote:On April 17 2012 20:54 B.I.G. wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel the military is no place for women. Not because of sexist reasons but war and whatnot doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, and these are just examples on how that could turn out..
Edit: It seems to be a survival of the fittest, and if some of these women arent strong enough to defend themselves against the others then I just think its to dangerous. No-one can defend themselves from every threat at every time. You are supposed to be able to utterly rely on your comrades in arms, and not to need to defend yourself from them. If soldiers can't rely on each other in combat then military operations fall apart. The problem isn't that these women didn't "defend themselves", it is that some soldiers raped them. If those soldiers are willing to do that to people they serve alongside, who have military training, what would they be willing to do to the civilians they encounter on deployment? And what reaction would this level of indifference in the response of the command to accusations engender in a population already unhappy with the military presence? But you can't utterly rely on your comrades, its the human nature that is the problem. Also rape is common when you put females in a male dominated place it allways has happened and it will continue to happen, nomatter how wrong it is that is a fact. we can try as hard as we want the world will never be perfect, and woman will allways be putting themselves at risk in these situations B.I.G is saying that "the military is no place for women". Keeping women out of the military because men might rape them is no better than keeping blacks out of schools because whites will harass them (Little Rock, 1957, comes to mind).
haha nice one
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On April 17 2012 22:40 Muki wrote:
So if they cannot defend 1vs1 in a bathroom how are they supposed to do in real combat? If I enlisted in the military and deployed into a warzone where physical strength is of critical importance then I'd make sure first that I am at least in the same condition as my fellow soldiers are. Gender doesn't matter. They were unfit for duty.
Welcome to the 21st century. At this time, very little combat involves physical strength as firearms (note 1) and combat vehicles (note 2) and aeroplanes (note 3). Combat is also restricted to only a few places in the world so you need not remain vigilant against enemy attacks when you are outside these regions, and many wars that may have seemed interminable in your hometime have long since ceased - England, Spain and France are allies now.
1. Picture a crossbow the length of your forearm that is light enough for a child to carry and easy enough to use for a child to use, which can fire dozens of bolts in a single second over a range of hundreds of feet.
2. These are like carts covered in great suits of armour mounted with many cannons. Unlike carts, they have no horses to pull them and are driven by an internal mechanism which converts fire into movement.
3. These are like combat vehicles, but have been equipped with giant wings so they can fly far above the battlefield. They can also be used to break sieges by flying right over the walls.
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EPT
