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United States43764 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:10 ampson wrote:
@kwark
So we have established a situation where a rape has occurred. It has not been, or has "suboptimally been reported." What are we to do in this case? How will anyone even know? Are we supposed to somehow know that this rape has occurred and launch an investigation without being told to? In this case, "suboptimally" means that the one person these women reported it to ignored it. They have other ways of reporting it but just don't. Is it a tragedy that the next guy up doesn't do anything to deal with it? Sure, but there are still other ways to seek justice. Officers should deal with this, but in the case of a bad officer (Who doesn't report the rape to anyone,) what can be done if these women do not seek additional help? Who will even know? It's a shitty situation but someone (who isn't corrupt) has to know about the event in order for justice to be done.
I agree entirely with your conclusion. It's a shitty situation and one of the reasons for the depressingly low conviction rate for rape. I'm not advocating abandoning the assumption of innocence, the part of your post I objected to was the part where you claimed that suboptimal reporting means we should assume no rape took place.
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this became too much theorycrafting for me..
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On April 17 2012 22:32 aTnClouD wrote:
USA army again. Everytime I wonder how it is possible for it to be so fucked up.
What the fuck dude, you think this doesn't happen in any other military?
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On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search.
I could go into greater depth...
We will make one broad assumption for the sake of argument. We will say that all the women were raped against their will.
Now let us start with the proper way to go about things as per the training the military does:
http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/what_to_do.cfm
Read the whole thing.
At no point was she suppose to go to non-commissioned officers to deal with the situation. There is a huge difference between non-commissioned officers (which are just higher-ranked enlisted) and actual officers. And, the only officers that would be notified of this if she reported it properly would be the CO: and he/she probably wouldn't even know any of the details, only that someone was raped so that he/she can conduct sexual assault prevention training etc...
If the victim chose to make it an Unrestricted report then more information would be released, but it would automatically supersede any of her chain of command. Even her CO would not have the authority to dismiss the paperwork. And he wouldn't even be the one any paperwork would be submitted to: that would all go directly to the SARC representative.
This whole story wreaks of bullshit media manipulation.
The fact that none of this even spoke about her contacting the proper sources or talking to an actual Officer (completely different then a NCO) is just ridiculous.
I'm not saying she didn't get raped. I'm saying that she reported it incorrectly and that all the information provided doesn't add up. The military does not work that way.
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On April 19 2012 10:59 ppgButtercup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search. I could go into greater depth... We will make one broad assumption for the sake of argument. We will say that all the women were raped against their will. Now let us start with the proper way to go about things as per the training the military does: http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/what_to_do.cfmRead the whole thing. At no point was she suppose to go to non-commissioned officers to deal with the situation. There is a huge difference between non-commissioned officers (which are just higher-ranked enlisted) and actual officers. And, the only officers that would be notified of this if she reported it properly would be the CO: and he/she probably wouldn't even know any of the details, only that someone was raped so that he/she can conduct sexual assault prevention training etc... If the victim chose to make it an Unrestricted report then more information would be released, but it would automatically supersede any of her chain of command. Even her CO would not have the authority to dismiss the paperwork. And he wouldn't even be the one any paperwork would be submitted to: that would all go directly to the SARC representative. This whole story wreaks of bullshit media manipulation. The fact that none of this even spoke about her contacting the proper sources or talking to an actual Officer (completely different then a NCO) is just ridiculous. I'm not saying she didn't get raped. I'm saying that she reported it incorrectly and that all the information provided doesn't add up. The military does not work that way.
Yes... and then realize that whole website on sexual assault is basically presented to everyone in the army every couple months in its entirety. It's 100% mandatory. The army will hunt you down to make sure you've been briefed and rebriefed and rebriefed. So it's not like the information is hidden, when in fact, it's ingrained in our brains. I don't know how the other armed forces work, but I can't imagine it being any different when it comes to stuff like this, as it is policy generally coming straight from DoD.
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I don't know why they go through their chain of command.
If an assault occurs - report immediately for medical assistance and demand an MP to file the charges and start an investigation.
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Pretty sure this happens everywhere, especially in the army where there are like 3 girls per 100 guys. You think someone is going to white knight that shit? It's pretty horrible but that's just how the world is -___-
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On April 19 2012 12:12 pyrogenetix wrote:
Pretty sure this happens everywhere, especially in the army where there are like 3 girls per 100 guys. You think someone is going to white knight that shit? It's pretty horrible but that's just how the world is -___-
It is sad, really, because each and every soldier is supposed to fight for those that cannot fight for themselves. Soldiers ooze comradery, but in some cases the higher ups want problems to just go away quietly, rather than standing up and taking care of the problem good and proper and with military efficiency. So wrong. Every soldier should be looking out for the very few women in the military like they are their little sister, not some conquest to fornicate with.
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On April 19 2012 10:59 ppgButtercup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search. I could go into greater depth... We will make one broad assumption for the sake of argument. We will say that all the women were raped against their will. Now let us start with the proper way to go about things as per the training the military does: http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/what_to_do.cfmRead the whole thing. At no point was she suppose to go to non-commissioned officers to deal with the situation. There is a huge difference between non-commissioned officers (which are just higher-ranked enlisted) and actual officers. And, the only officers that would be notified of this if she reported it properly would be the CO: and he/she probably wouldn't even know any of the details, only that someone was raped so that he/she can conduct sexual assault prevention training etc... If the victim chose to make it an Unrestricted report then more information would be released, but it would automatically supersede any of her chain of command. Even her CO would not have the authority to dismiss the paperwork. And he wouldn't even be the one any paperwork would be submitted to: that would all go directly to the SARC representative. This whole story wreaks of bullshit media manipulation. The fact that none of this even spoke about her contacting the proper sources or talking to an actual Officer (completely different then a NCO) is just ridiculous. I'm not saying she didn't get raped. I'm saying that she reported it incorrectly and that all the information provided doesn't add up. The military does not work that way.
ya you may be right, on the other hand it can be very challenging for a person to bring themselves to go through with the process, especially if they encounter discouragement/some barrier. having been pretty depressed and fucked up myself from time to time, its easier to relate to how someone might feel reluctant, isolated, unstable and otherwise unwilling or unable to push themselves through a continuing, scary and stressful process. anyway i dont know why im even in this thread
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On April 19 2012 15:27 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 10:59 ppgButtercup wrote:On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search. I could go into greater depth... We will make one broad assumption for the sake of argument. We will say that all the women were raped against their will. Now let us start with the proper way to go about things as per the training the military does: http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/what_to_do.cfmRead the whole thing. At no point was she suppose to go to non-commissioned officers to deal with the situation. There is a huge difference between non-commissioned officers (which are just higher-ranked enlisted) and actual officers. And, the only officers that would be notified of this if she reported it properly would be the CO: and he/she probably wouldn't even know any of the details, only that someone was raped so that he/she can conduct sexual assault prevention training etc... If the victim chose to make it an Unrestricted report then more information would be released, but it would automatically supersede any of her chain of command. Even her CO would not have the authority to dismiss the paperwork. And he wouldn't even be the one any paperwork would be submitted to: that would all go directly to the SARC representative. This whole story wreaks of bullshit media manipulation. The fact that none of this even spoke about her contacting the proper sources or talking to an actual Officer (completely different then a NCO) is just ridiculous. I'm not saying she didn't get raped. I'm saying that she reported it incorrectly and that all the information provided doesn't add up. The military does not work that way. ya you may be right, on the other hand it can be very challenging for a person to bring themselves to go through with the process, especially if they encounter discouragement/some barrier. having been pretty depressed and fucked up myself from time to time, its easier to relate to how someone might feel reluctant, isolated, unstable and otherwise unwilling or unable to push themselves through a continuing, scary and stressful process. anyway i dont know why im even in this thread
IMO thats a whole other problem, nothing to do what the article suggested that miltiary just sweep these under a rug.
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On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:10 ppgButtercup wrote:The amount of ignorance in this thread is amazing... A simple google search will provide you with TONS of information on how sexual assault is handled in the military. For example: http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/index_pledge.cfmStop making sweeping statements about stuff not getting taken care of or swept under the rug. Unless these women didn't report the incidents properly, these things did get looked into. A non-commissioned officer can't do anything about a sexual assault allegation. They certainly cannot sweep it under the rug. That article is complete BS or the women in question completely ignored all the sexual prevention training they were given and didn't report things properly. Stop judging the military based on this nonsense. Go actually look up how this stuff works before posting... While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search.
I read those posts, and there is also equivalent amount of service men that gave totally different view. With the supporting evidences so far, the article seems sensationalised indeed. You have to know some of these service men only provided their "first hand experience" based on observation. As they are less likely to be raped vicitim, their knowledge on the subject can be sketchy and misleading, while on the other hand detailed procedures like this actually gave more insight in how is it actually handled, after all I doubt these service men had a real "first hand experience".
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well,
+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2012 07:15 KwarK wrote:While I don't want to condemn the evidence of a simple google search there have also been several very informative posts by people with direct, first hand experience of the matter stemming from their own service within the military. This topic contains more than a sensationalised article and pages of people being outraged, there is actually a discussion going on which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to dismiss the entire issue with a simple google search. I could go into greater depth... We will make one broad assumption for the sake of argument. We will say that all the women were raped against their will. Now let us start with the proper way to go about things as per the training the military does: http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/what_to_do.cfmRead the whole thing. At no point was she suppose to go to non-commissioned officers to deal with the situation. There is a huge difference between non-commissioned officers (which are just higher-ranked enlisted) and actual officers. And, the only officers that would be notified of this if she reported it properly would be the CO: and he/she probably wouldn't even know any of the details, only that someone was raped so that he/she can conduct sexual assault prevention training etc... If the victim chose to make it an Unrestricted report then more information would be released, but it would automatically supersede any of her chain of command. Even her CO would not have the authority to dismiss the paperwork. And he wouldn't even be the one any paperwork would be submitted to: that would all go directly to the SARC representative. This whole story wreaks of bullshit media manipulation. The fact that none of this even spoke about her contacting the proper sources or talking to an actual Officer (completely different then a NCO) is just ridiculous. I'm not saying she didn't get raped. I'm saying that she reported it incorrectly and that all the information provided doesn't add up. The military does not work that way.
We are trying to talk about things we aren't to sure of.. to be honest I wouldn't just go off what an article says or represents. "If" she did report it to her CO then she did right and it seems the matter wasn't properly handled, which is unacceptable either way. At her right, upon realization she isnt being taken care of for this matter, she can immediately goto higher rank in her COC or IG, they have hotlines, sexual assault NCO/CO. There is a plethora of ways to report this bring attention to the matter. Unfortunally we don't really know the truth, never the less this is a sad story and during my time in, I continued to see some of the most stupidest shit I've ever seen. I don't think the core of the problem lies in the "military" of any country. Its how poeple are raised, what influences them, and there mental capacity for right and wrong imo. sad stuff....
@acerockolla : I hear what you are saying, and maybe a website says that. The culture of US Army is to always report to your next highest, handle problems at the lowest level, blah blah. Some people feel comfortable with that some don't regarding certain matters, which is why there is always the open door policy regarding going to an officer first. NCO's are leaders, and as first line leaders they often deal with the reality of all problems first. Not saying this is a matter her first line NCO would handle by him/herself at all though.
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EPT
