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On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
Fear? Slavery? What about the meritocratic benefits of a capitalistic system? The primary draw (and one of the main reasons of success) is that you can go to a capitalistic nation and succeed. You can start a business, get a dream job, climb the corporate ladder, start a family or whatever else floats your boat. People come to capitalistic nations and stay there because of the opportunity for success, not the opportunity for failure.
Also, there are real slaves in the world right now that make South Korea look like heaven on Earth. Please don't downgrade their level of suffering by insinuating capitalistic nations are "slave nations".
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Crazy, the insane work ethic that Koreans have also probably have to attribute to their unhappiness.
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On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
Talking about useless rherotic in that post is actually pretty funny, as is the request to offer something you can swallow (in more than one way). The demand that something has to be scientifically sound and peer-reviewed is hardly ridiculous, as you try to make it out to be.
I don't even dispute that Asian nations educate the priviliged better in Maths than Finland. But you offer the motherfucking Math Olympiad as your only evidence, asking us to 'trust you', talk about hard to swallow. You could have just linked an article about how the Finnish system emphasizes special education and 'equality' in education, perhaps this one. It also helps not to be too much of a dick about it, it really does, trust me.
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On April 03 2012 05:47 theslayer922 wrote:
Crazy, the insane work ethic that Koreans have also probably have to attribute to their unhappiness.
It is not as if they want this work ethic. It is forced upon them from a very young age.
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On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that?
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I realize I probably do sound like a dick here which is weird since I have no stake in this. Im neither finnish nor korean. I guess what ticked me off was the notion that you can effectively study less and be just as good. Now I'm not sure what to cite here, lets just call it a day. I love equality btw.
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Why the South Korean children are unhappy, has to do with the ridiculous workload that's forced upon them since elementary-middle school ages all the way up to the college entrance exam. I highly disagree with it and I'm so glad I got out of there before getting the full brunt of it.
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On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To your sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
I got the highest average in Denmark the year I graduated (11,5), with multiple 13 (the grade isn't represented in the american system, 11 = A+, 13 meant that you know the stuff at a university level - Denmark has since then moved away from the system). I got a grant which is given to "the extraordinary and greatly academically gifted student". I scored 17, 18 and 16 points in the Georg Mohr the 3 years I participated and placed top 10 in the biology olympiad here in Denmark. Yeah, it was probably my poor academical skills that cut me short... Or it could just be because my teachers didn't know that such a thing existed because NO ONE CARES ABOUT ACADEMICAL TOURNAMENTS IN DENMARK.
The arguments against using the math olympiad as a measure for which countries has the best math-education aren't just rhetorical as you try to downplay it as. It should be obvious that to win something you first have to participate and if it isn't very popular to participate in contests, well then no one is going to bother doing it (like with Badminton in the states). Also, I offered you the PISA-studies (which despite being terrible are still a miles better than using the math olympiad)....
Also I loved the part where you moved from the well-known country "Europe" to the US, because countries don't differ at all...
EDIT: I see that you now called it a day - so let's do that. Have a nice day  (despite my previous useage of sarcasm, please believe me - this is 100% sincere).
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It's part of the "Asian" culture, so to speak. It exists in China, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. You're taught to always bow your head to your superiors, both metaphorically and literally.
In many western cultures, you're basically told that you become anything you want if you try hard enough. Even if you don't go to university, you can still make it big through sheer effort and desire.
In most 1st World Asian nations, there's still an attitude of "knowing your place", so to speak. You work extremely long hour days, work in a position that matches your education, and there are ever prevalent glass ceilings. School is much the same, and also the reason why Asian schools are considered so much better than Western ones - because they very nearly define your entire future, with no leeway.
I'm hoping I'm getting this all across right...essentially, in many Asian cultures, things like school and work are basically seen as your life, with everything else being incidental around those. In Western culture, those are just the things that allow you to have your life.
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On April 02 2012 23:45 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:40 Gosi wrote:On April 02 2012 18:54 Supamang wrote:On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself) Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!" Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either. Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates. The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself.
In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face
Gross generalization. Suicide isn't received well in just about any culture.
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This article only delves into the economic aspects of the problem at hand, when in actuality there is a lot more to the issue aside from the economic stance of S.Korea. Another part of the problem is that suicide rate among the younger generation are high due to expectations that are placed upon them.
On top of that, suicide rates and happiness levels are not really correlated, as sociological studies have shown. It has to do with more matters such as how people react to a change in circumstances, so i think the title is a bit misleading in that sense.
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On April 03 2012 05:50 Attican wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that?
Hahaha I don't where this is going anymore :D But using the maths olympiad scores as a comparison between education systems is pretty hilarious.
ecstatica, unless you can argue that the entire purpose of an education system is to take the top 0.1% of a population to a state where they are very good at solving math contest questions, I don't see what point you are trying to make..
edit: ok just saw your last post. You seem to try to say that "same education with less" is not possible. What people have been trying to say here is rather: "spending MORE time studying is not necessarily better for people". Sometimes it makes you smarter. Sometimes it makes you better at math contests. Sometimes it makes you unhappy. So,"studying more" is not necessarily a good thing.
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Talking about happyness in south korea seems kinda interesting, but I was sad as soon as I saw this was about economics. Never talk about economy in TL, too many free market bullshit everywhere.
Also I need to understand where he makes the link between suicide rate / happyness / economical situation. I still think it's a pretty poor way of seeing things, the high suicide rate of SK cannot be explained by the economical situation alone, I think everybody knows that. Something is missing imo.
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Ghostcom, one last Q: did you study for the Olympiad? Kind of, you know, "busted ass" so to speak? Maybe more than what school program required? I know you did. And that's the essence of this argument.
Grats for repping Denmark that year. Hopefully not every participant had to explain their teachers wtf an Olympiad is (that would be weird). Im not even going to discount your evidence as anecdotal like you did with mine! After all one day we might play badminton together.
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On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
The study environment is at least as important as the hours put in. It sounds like these Korean kids are stimulated in a way that might not be very effective.
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On April 03 2012 06:12 Yenticha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:50 Attican wrote:On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that? Hahaha I don't where this is going anymore :D But using the maths olympiad scores as a comparison between education systems is pretty hilarious. ecstatica, unless you can argue that the entire purpose of an education system is to take the top 0.1% of a population to a state where they are very good at solving math contest questions, I don't see what point you are trying to make.. edit: ok just saw your last post. You seem to try to say that "same education with less" is not possible. What people have been trying to say here is rather: "spending MORE time studying is not necessarily better for people". Sometimes it makes you smarter. Sometimes it makes you better at math contests. Sometimes it makes you unhappy. So,"studying more" is not necessarily a good thing.
Im pretty sure its purpose is to have more people score 51/100 instead of 50/100 compared to other countries.
You really think future math major score average on math tests?
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On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote:
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To your sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L Bolded part. Personal anecdotes: 7th to 9th grade I had the highest math scores in the schools over 20 years history(400-500 students sized school) and no one said one word about math competitions. Unfortunately(for this discussion) I didn't specialize in advanced math for more anecdotal evidence, but if these competitions all good students supposedly participate in start later I'm surprised I haven't even heard of their existence.
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Interesting article,it does pinpoint the economic situation (or rather the uncertainty about peoples personal economic situation, aka will i have a job next year) as cause for the unhappyness though like some posters above i am not sure that is 100% sustifiable and there seems to be more at hand.
Objectivly the economic situation of south korea has improved considerably since say 1990, though they might be in a slump atm like manny other parts of the world.
South korea is even predicted to be the 2nd wealthiest country per captiva in 2050 right after the usa, (91k$ for usa, 89k$ for south korea estimated )
Got this from wiki btw lol but the article is based on research from goldman sachs.
It cant be the economy alone and the social structure must play some role in this, the workload they face since a young age at school looks enormous and might play a major role in this feeling of beeing unhappy.
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What's good for the world as a whole is rising income levels in all countries and a diminishing wealth gap between nations. Free trade with countries that are unable to compete leads to a situation where the underdeveloped country will never be able to escape its position; its essentially 21st century colonialism. Countries are right for using protectionism for their non-competitive sectors, because if they don't they'll never develop that sector. US manufacturing, US Steel, Korean Steel, Japanese/Korean cars, none of it would have been possible without fierce protectionism and in the end the world as a whole benefits from the trade and competition that occurs once countries have actual competitive sectors.
Smart well-led countries (like China, India, Brazil) actually reckognize this and act on it. Free trade in low-tech manufacturing, protectionism for the sectors they want to be a part of in the future (biotech, aviation). Deregulation and free markets can have extremely destructive effects that are not in the interest of anyone, which is why policymakers need to carefully consider all options and not simply choose deregulation as a default option.
Free trade gives poor countries a chance to escape their fate. If an industry in the US can't compete with outside competitors who can do it cheaper you should let them. These new competitors not from the US will develop their own industry and will have the same technological advancements and a cheaper alternative for the consumers.
Just take the agriculture in Europe it's heavily subsidized and has massive trade barriers. European farmers can sell their products incredibly cheap because they get subsidies from Europe to make up for the loss they make. Because of this farmers in for example Africa have to lower their prices to the same level and thus making them poorer.
Now let's say you stop the subsidies and the trade barriers for it and reschool the farmers what you get now is the farmers in Africa being able to sustain themself and having higher wages which they can spend and European tax money getting reinvested in other important projects like infrastructure or whatever.
And that 'clever' government in China Just followed the Japanese model and it's colapsing just like it did in Japan.
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Math olympics really? all most all Finnish student wont even bother participating these kind of "competition" things. Why take more workload for your studies by participating some random exams?
I mean first 9 years of school you taught basic things which you need to survive modern society. So called "genius" guys are same class with us and I bet they don't really make too much effort with their studies same with me. You make homework if you remember to do those, study for exam day before it for few hours and thats it. Thats average Joe the Student.
After that you have two options. 3 years of study to get work profession (plumbers, hair stylist/barber, economic (low grade), electrician, chef, etc) or 3 more years to determine your academic level. Now here most "genius" students start to have some effort to maintain decent grades and have good final exam grades. After that if you get good grades you can choose where to study without having national entry exams. I guess thats the hardest part of your live to get in for another school after that its gets easier again (studying is pretty easy compared to exam).
But what is this really have to do with SK unhappy thing?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8605791.stm
always lol at this video... their dad said have nice day, never happens
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EPT
