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On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
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On April 03 2012 01:27 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept. Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
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On April 02 2012 18:52 Optimism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
(I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself) The reason it ran is because the author disagrees with the general economic direction that the British government has taken over the past two decades, culminating in the present austerity (which has completely failed to produce any growth for the last two years now despite all the promises to the contrary) and the looming privatisation-by-stealth of the NHS, against the wishes of the majority of the population. But it's not surprising that a British newspaper would publish news about South Korea that claims to shed some light on what's happening in Britain, so I don't really see that as a problem. It also fits his general thesis that neoliberalism is a disaster for the people who have to live under it. I pointed out in the original post that this was the angle he's coming from. P ersonally I find his broad analysis of neoliberalism pretty convincing (and damning) but that isn't the reason I posted it here, the reason I posted it here is that it gives some interesting insight into what it's like being a young person in South Korea. It's already a tough enough decision to tell your parents that you're going to try to make a living off playing games competitively, and almost all the pro-gamers say their parents opposed the idea. This gives some idea of why they might be so opposed - with the majority of the population not having permanent contracts, with no social safety net worth the name, with a medical emergency potentially leading to bankruptcy, and with the Red Queen race that apparently makes up the education system it's a hell of a big risk to take, even bigger than you might originally assume.
The issue with austerity is sustainable debt levels. Governments can't tax people enough to pay for what the welfare state requires. Therefore they need to borrow money that they hope they will be able to pay back with future increased revenue caused by economic growth.
The problem is that they measure both economic growth as well as budget deficits as a percentage of GDP, when in fact the government's budget is only about 30% of GDP. They mask the scale of the problem by saying that growth is 2% and deficit is 3%, so no problem guys, we're only a bit below the line, but they are having a revenue growth of 2%/year and borrowing as much as 10% of their budget per year. This is why the debt is piling up, and at some point investors will conclude that the government is incapable of paying back, so they will refuse to lend any more money to the government and the social welfare state collapses anyway.
The current system, fueled by debt requires more and more growth in order to survive. But the limit has been reached, and the economy cannot grow fast enough to pay the interest. Soon, it will struggle to grow at all, with the impending energy crisis. We have had peak oil a couple of years ago already, peak coal and peak gas soon to follow in the 2020s. We will need to learn to live in a declining economy, until we become fueled by 100% renewable energy. In the not so far away future we will have less economic output, less wealth, less division of labour. The transition to this world will be a turmoil...
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On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
As big of a deal as it is, people get used to things pretty well. I can't imagine that "omg North Korea might nuke us" is an everyday concern, especially for schoolchildren.
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On April 03 2012 01:41 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:27 seppolevne wrote:On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept. Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
Conclusion: Having more people lets you reach further on a bell curve?
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The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans.
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Hmm this could be docked as a useless post this late in the thread, but @OP "the neoliberal 'Washington Consensus' model of economic development" very simply sounds less like general capitalism and more specific to Ayn Rand and her ethical --> physical approach on laissez-faire capitalism. In such, I simply relate Ha-Joon Chang (upon further research) to Carl Marx. Albeit, this is a very well written article, but it struck me odd when he blatantly compared capitalist South Korea to socialist Finland (welfare country - not specifically socialist).
I also feel Chang leaves out far more pressing matters that would in a right mans mind directly relate to unhappiness. Simple things like South Korea has the longest average workweek in the world (yes he points out employment security, but not the droning of the people). Or that socially, South Korea is a suppressed nation via a culture mix of the old and the new, where they want to overly educate people, and almost literally make them live at school until they are 18. Third, the insane lack of freedom paired with, as Chang points out, the inability to move in the social ladder. But don't discount the lack of freedom. Capitalism and social freedoms go hand in hand, and when one of the other is discounted, it's proven to be detrimental.
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On April 03 2012 01:51 koreasilver wrote:
The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans.
This is very true.
I teach English in South Korea. Most of the children don't even THINK about North Korea. Like, ever.
Also, a lot of people don't understand just how much Korean kids go to school. Every day kids go to public school for the regular amount of hours. Then after that, they go to hagwons (or Academys in English). Each hagwon teaches in about three hour blocks, twice a week. So every student of mine spends six hours a week with me at English hagwon.
Now, that's not too bad, but if you ask most of my students how many hagwons they go to, most of them will say AT LEAST FOUR. That's an extra 24 hours of schooling ON TOP OF the mandatory public schooling they go through. And that only takes into account how much time they spend in class, let alone how much time they spend doing homework.
Once kids reach Highschool things change. The highschoolers in my city go to school from early in the morning until 10 PM at night. Now, granted, a lot of the extra time there is because they have to attend a mandatory period of study hall, but still... that's your ENTIRE day spent at school. And this is only HIGHSCHOOL.
In the students senior year of highschool they have to take a standardized test which pretty much determines the rest of their life. It's sort of like your SAT or ACT or what have you, except it takes (I think) about ten hours, instead of three or four. It has been rightly said that this day is the most important day in the lives of Koreans. If you do poorly, you either don't get to attend college (or at least a good one), or you have to wait another year to try to improve your score. If you don't get into a good school, then you can't get a good career, if you can't get a good career, then your capacity for social advancement is greatly diminished.
So yeah, I can kinda see why Korea might have a depression and suicide problem.
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On April 03 2012 01:55 Game wrote:
Hmm this could be docked as a useless post this late in the thread, but @OP "the neoliberal 'Washington Consensus' model of economic development" very simply sounds less like general capitalism and more specific to Ayn Rand and her ethical --> physical approach on laissez-faire capitalism. In such, I simply relate Ha-Joon Chang (upon further research) to Carl Marx. Albeit, this is a very well written article, but it struck me odd when he blatantly compared capitalist South Korea to socialist Finland (welfare country - not specifically socialist).
I also feel Chang leaves out far more pressing matters that would in a right mans mind directly relate to unhappiness. Simple things like South Korea has the longest average workweek in the world (yes he points out employment security, but not the droning of the people). Or that socially, South Korea is a suppressed nation via a culture mix of the old and the new, where they want to overly educate people, and almost literally make them live at school until they are 18. Third, the insane lack of freedom paired with, as Chang points out, the inability to move in the social ladder. But don't discount the lack of freedom. Capitalism and social freedoms go hand in hand, and when one of the other is discounted, it's proven to be detrimental.
When Chang talks about the Washington Consensus he refers to what he calls 'The Unholy Trinity', which is the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO, and the way they force countries to develop. All three institutions are dominated by Western nations, all highly competitive in their fields, and they force less developed nations to accept standards of neo-liberalism (or market capitalism) that they aren't willing to impose on themselves.
What he describes is the hypocrisy he calls 'Keynsianism for the rich, neo-liberalism for the poor'. The Washington Consensus forces non-competitive countries that are in economic downturn to limit their deficits and open up their markets even more. The response in the 'rich west' however is to bail-out everything in sight (just look at our latest crisis) and start raising trade barriers, because we aren't bound to the three institutions named above for financial aid. This is what Chang says happened to Korea in the 1997 financial crisis, and (more or less) is what he sees as the reason for the endless stagnation in Japan (altho they self-imposed the norms of the Washington Consensus).
Chang isn't a marxist at all, or anti-market for that matter, he just sees limits on under what circumstances markets yield optimal outcomes, defined broader then optimal worldwide allocation. Additionally, I think its undeniable that the power configuration in the Washington consensus is stacked in favor of the rich west, and that we do use it to force countries to respond to crises differently then we would have ourselves. Or, more generally, it forces polices on countries that we wouldn't have chosen ourselves, as history pretty much shows. Countries don't become competitive on the global scale through markets, you become competitive at home first by protectionism, and then enter the global market to increase efficiency and competitiveness while slowly stripping away protection. The only examples of countries that became wealthy by free trade are the Netherlands, Venice and arguably current day Chile.
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On April 03 2012 01:41 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:27 seppolevne wrote:On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept. Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
You are not very bright, are you? To even mention the math olympiad....
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It's cultural. We all have heard about how insanely high expectations the Japanese and Korean parents have. When they realize that money isn't everything, I think things will change.
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On April 03 2012 01:50 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:41 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:27 seppolevne wrote:On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept. Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs Conclusion: Having more people lets you reach further on a bell curve?
Unfortunately, this isn't how statistics work. Finland has large enough sample to make a comparison and it is not very favorable.
On April 03 2012 02:19 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:41 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:27 seppolevne wrote:On April 03 2012 01:21 ecstatica wrote:On April 03 2012 01:13 AxUU wrote:On April 03 2012 00:29 ecstatica wrote:On April 02 2012 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote:
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores. Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students. Can SK adapt to the Finnish system? How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you? Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood. Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades. It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference. Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept. Simple indeed. Averages are the same while the work is way harder. Those are different paths to the same outcome. Watch what you call simple, you may just insult yourself... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs You are not very bright, are you? To even mention the math olympiad....
I'm sorry?..
http://www.imo-official.org/results_country.aspx
Just spend some time looking at this table and comparing country sizes and scores. Every country usually sends a 6-man/woman team. Now find all the small to average sized countries and compare their results to Finland's. I can't believe I have to do this for you.
Just stop this BULLSHIT with amazing finnish education system. It is good for general education NO DOUBT. But educated and dedicated parents play even a bigger role in this. For producing top talent that can do cutting edge research and outperform peers from other countries that system is TRASH. Dont compare it to SK, please dont. It just doesnt work like that, only in imaginary world.
GODDAMN Armenia with 3 mil population has you beat. I just can't get over this LOL! Still steaming.
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Free markets are better, but of course, World Bank, IMF and WTO don't promote free markets, they promote corporate takeover over the governments. People have been made to think free market means something it does not. Big Time Capitalists are funny people, because on one hand they want the government out of their business, but on the other they want to use the means of coercion in their struggle against the competition.
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On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote:
For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
It's not just higher, it's the highest of all countries in which suicides are recorded.
In case you want to read this, trust me that it will be very informative and competent, but nontheless:
+ Show Spoiler +
A few facts about suicide
Suicidality comes with depression.
Depression can be caused by a lot of events, but in most cases there's pressure from outside involved, contrary to cases where you lose a close person. Healthy individuals who aren't of old age usually cope with it (the loss) within a few years.
Attribution pattern for the worst case becomes: success-external, unstable causes.Failure-internal, stable causes.
etc. etc. (cba to cite down stuff widely available, let's get down to innovative speculation)
All this stuff has been researched on a narrow individual base.
A few differences between Western and Asian culture:
individualist - collectivist
macho - kawaii (thinking about this made me lol, curse MC for falling out of the pattern)
favors extraversion - favors introversion
many popular subcultures - few popular subcultures
emphasizes honest strategies - encourages smart, subtle strategies (especially the Chinese culture)
behavior is explained as a product of personality - (...) product of environment
In case you found these facts interesting for an understanding, now i'll get to the point fast:
Lithuania: When you have a political (neo-liberalism vs. post-communism) and ethnical (natives vs. immigrated Russians)
discrepancy, combined with a bad healthcare system, a shit climate and no way to change anything, suicide rates might increase.
Mentioning of suicides in the news usually causes more suicides (Werther-effect)
That's why it isn't allowed to mention suicides in the news in my country, and that might also be the reason why the suicide rate powers itself after reaching a "critical mass", cause it becomes so visible to the inhabitants, keeping the Lithuanian rate high.
South Korea:
The general high competitive pressure in asian countries, and being forced into an ideal stereotype chosen by popular culture give you a strong feeling of being worthless if you don't fit into it.
South Korea has a ridiculous amount of plastic surgery performed, one of the -if not the- highest rate performed worldwide.
Too tired to go on, but for the economic discussion i have to add this:
I think unreglemented neoliberalism (which only exicts at the highest financial spheres, e.g. investment banks) is screwing with the world, and so many from the US despising of socialism in a dogmatic way don't know that a lot of people in your country (millions) live from food stamps.
The biggest US banks being bailed out with giant amounts of money effectively makes them to a part of your nation.
Roughly 70 % of the investments within your country are for consumption.
You live in a semi-socialist country painted liberal for the masses.
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I haven't read all the thread, but let me respond here by saying some people give more credit to North Korea threat than necessary. To my understanding nobody really gives a shit. Actually, the worst influence their presence have on our well-being might as well be the mandatory military service...
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On April 03 2012 02:07 Fighter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:51 koreasilver wrote:
The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans. This is very true. I teach English in South Korea. Most of the children don't even THINK about North Korea. Like, ever. Also, a lot of people don't understand just how much Korean kids go to school. Every day kids go to public school for the regular amount of hours. Then after that, they go to hagwons (or Academys in English). Each hagwon teaches in about three hour blocks, twice a week. So every student of mine spends six hours a week with me at English hagwon. Now, that's not too bad, but if you ask most of my students how many hagwons they go to, most of them will say AT LEAST FOUR. That's an extra 24 hours of schooling ON TOP OF the mandatory public schooling they go through. And that only takes into account how much time they spend in class, let alone how much time they spend doing homework. Once kids reach Highschool things change. The highschoolers in my city go to school from early in the morning until 10 PM at night. Now, granted, a lot of the extra time there is because they have to attend a mandatory period of study hall, but still... that's your ENTIRE day spent at school. And this is only HIGHSCHOOL. In the students senior year of highschool they have to take a standardized test which pretty much determines the rest of their life. It's sort of like your SAT or ACT or what have you, except it takes (I think) about ten hours, instead of three or four. It has been rightly said that this day is the most important day in the lives of Koreans. If you do poorly, you either don't get to attend college (or at least a good one), or you have to wait another year to try to improve your score. If you don't get into a good school, then you can't get a good career, if you can't get a good career, then your capacity for social advancement is greatly diminished. So yeah, I can kinda see why Korea might have a depression and suicide problem.
Yeah, they set their kids' behavioral patterns early on to tolerate and endure 12-14 hour study days, which prepares them for 12-14 hour work days when they grow up, which is standard for companies there. Same reason their pro-gamers practice that long, though I reckon pro-gaming is seen as a form of escape from said work environment. I mean, 12-14 hours of playing games, that's preferrable to 12-14 hours of doing a job you don't like.
This kind of schedule comes at a cost. You can't teach free thinking, and giving your kids no free time makes them both unhappier and less able to create new things.
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On April 02 2012 22:38 NebuLoSa wrote:Show nested quote +
hell yeah. The Guardian cares about suicide rates. Damn left wing newspapers, they would write about anything these days...
and yet this has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic so why even bother posting?
maybe because some people here discard an article about a very serious issue (suicide rate in SK amongst others) using very short sighted arguments like Guardian=left wing.
Whatever people think of the author, the newspaper, how economy should be run, etc, there is obviously something wrong with a country when suicide rate is that high.
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On April 03 2012 02:22 50bani wrote:
Free markets are better, but of course, World Bank, IMF and WTO don't promote free markets, they promote corporate takeover over the governments. People have been made to think free market means something it does not. Big Time Capitalists are funny people, because on one hand they want the government out of their business, but on the other they want to use the means of coercion in their struggle against the competition.
You're lumping people together who don't belong together. "Big time capitalists" do not want to use the hand of the government to promote their products.
Crooks do.
Big time capitalists do want the government's hand out of their products because the hand is typically being directed by the crooks
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On April 03 2012 00:27 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:45 Tobberoth wrote:On April 02 2012 23:40 Gosi wrote:On April 02 2012 18:54 Supamang wrote:On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself) Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!" Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either. Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates. The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself. You can't make a blanket statement like "Lots of countries have military service, that can't be it" You have to apply it to the culture. I think if you can tell anyone, with a straight face, that taking a kid out of their life (in some of their prime years) and put them into mandatory military service which they cannot avoid, doesn't affect their happiness, then you're crazy. It does, there's no way it can't. You want to talk about slavery? That's slavery. Maybe they're pretty good about making kids feel like they're doing something for their country, but the fact of the matter is, you're not in control of your destiny at that point, and few people can be happy under those circumstances.
Most people here greatly dislike service but there's a cultural 'deal with it' sort of attitude that makes people accept it as normal. You do it, you get out, you move on with your life.
It probably impacts happiness rates during those two years but I'm not sure what sort of lasting effects it has.
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On April 02 2012 18:12 Optimism wrote:
Moreover, increased job insecurity has driven the best Korean students into "secure" professions, like medicine and law, leaving science and engineering deprived of top talents. If this trend continues, the country's ability to innovate will be damaged.
Man, and I always considered engineering a "secure" profession. If a carear like that isn't considered secure, I can only imagine how hard it would be to convince your parents to let you be a "progamer" where the game you play goes old in ten years.
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