My native South Korea is something of a star performer. With per capita income of around $20,000 (on a par with Portugal), it is not one of the richest countries, but we are talking about a country whose income was less than half that of Ghana's until the early 1960s. With an annual per capita income growth rate of just under 4%, it is one of the fastest-growing OECD economies.
Once a byword for hyper-exploited sweatshop labour, churning out cheap transistor radios and trainers, the country now possesses the only thing that stands between iPhone and world domination (the Samsung Galaxy). It is also a world leader in industries such as shipbuilding, steel and automobiles.
The country is, per capita, the third most innovative in the world, after Japan and Taiwan, when measured by the number of patents granted by the US patent office. It has one of the world's highest university enrolment ratios, and schoolchildren who rank in the top five in virtually all standardised international tests.
So, when things seem to be going so swimmingly, why are Koreans clamouring for big changes in the run-up to the general election next week? Because they are desperately unhappy.
According to a recent World Values Survey, Koreans are the second unhappiest people (after Hungary) among the citizens of the 32 OECD countries studied. Worse, its children are the unhappiest in the rich world, according to a survey of 23 OECD countries done by Yonsei University in Seoul. In 2009 the country topped the international league table for suicides, with 28.4 suicides per 100,000 people. Japan was a distant second with 19.7. But Koreans never used to be this unhappy. Until 1995 its suicide rate was, at about 10 per 100,000 people, just below the OECD average. Since then it has almost tripled.
The answer to the Korean puzzle can be found in the consequences of the economic reform implemented after the country's 1997 financial crisis. In the UK-US mould, the stock market was fully opened to foreign investors, putting the larger, listed companies under pressure from international shareholders, making them increase short-term profits by minimising investments. The ability of smaller, unlisted companies to invest was severely curtailed by a dramatic reduction in credit availability. Deregulation allowed banks to rush into more lucrative consumer loan markets, reducing the share of loans to business.
The resulting dramatic fall in investments has led to a substantial fall in economic growth from 6%-7% (in per capita terms) per year to under 4%. With lower growth, few well-paid jobs are created. When combined with the relaxation of labour laws after 1997, this has given employers a decisive upper hand over their workers. Many employees were sacked and re-hired as "agency" workers, doing the same jobs at lower wages. The proportion of the workforce without a permanent contract rose from an already high 50% to 60%, the highest in the OECD.
Not that having a permanent contract gives you much protection these days. Most of the companies that used to (informally) provide "lifetime employment" for their core workers have ended the practice, with older staff put under pressure to make way for younger, cheaper workers.
And all of this is being played out in the absence of a decent welfare state – the country has the second smallest in the OECD, after Mexico (measured by welfare spending as a share of GDP). Given this, people live in constant fear of unemployment, forced retirement, and major illnesses, which expose them to a life of penury.
This "fear factor" also partly explains the country's excessive educational zeal. Pupils study hard, thinking that better educational qualification may give them a layer of protection in an unforgiving labour market. But since everyone is studying hard, they have to run faster to stay in the same place. The result is the combination of long study hours (double that of Finnish children, who do equally well in international tests), and enormous mental stress.
Moreover, increased job insecurity has driven the best Korean students into "secure" professions, like medicine and law, leaving science and engineering deprived of top talents. If this trend continues, the country's ability to innovate will be damaged.
The sad tale of my country should serve as a salutary warning to Britain and other European countries that are embarking on major cuts to welfare. They believe that such cuts will reduce budget deficits and make their economies more productive by making people compete more vigorously. However, the Korean story shows that insecurity actually makes people less, not more, productive, and also desperately unhappy. Surely, that is not what they want.
Ha-Joon Chang is a South Korean economist who made a name for himself by criticising the neoliberal 'Washington Consensus' model of economic development, which basically says you want free markets, minimal state intervention, a small social safety net, low taxes and balanced budgets. He used South Korea as one of his primary examples, pointing out that the country's success was built on heavy state investment, protectionism and capital controls, basically the exact opposite of the current economic orthodoxy.
Anyway, South Korea has been moving away from that model since the Asian crisis in the late 90s; this article is an interesting examination of some of the consequences. And it gives a nice bit of background into the culture in which young Korean people grow up, so I thought it might of interest on TL. It makes the decision to become a pro-gamer look even more risky than it first appears.
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
Very good read thanks for that. I know there is a thread on the elections on south korea at the moment on TL anyway. Will be looking out even more to see who wins now. Has a strong point for Economic reform though Ha-Joon Chang.
although i knew korea's suicide rates were one of the highest, idk if this survey portraying korea's happiness is accurate. Since S.korea's demand for plastic surgery is so high, its not surprising that top students choose medicine and law over science and engineering. The average Korean parents say become a doctor or a lawyer, never an engineer. I'm not too surprised about depression being high for students as well since the amount of work prior to university is immense and mentally taxing.
But happiness is just the individual's perspective. Happiness can be an illusion. Is it real and/or can it be measured? Maybe its the standards that the average Korean has regarding their perception of being happy to be too high compared to other countries. Some people are happy with a trailer park and hot dogs while another can only be happy if they looked like brad pit or jessica alba. After all Korea is extremely superficial when it comes to looks hence one of the highest demand of plastic surgery per capita.
edit: Better to say that Korea is unhappy with the current standpoint of its economy much like prior to Obama (who am i kidding) in the US. Unemployment is related to depression/unhappiness. Also Korea has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
Interesting. Sad to hear about this for the South Koreans, but interesting perspective on how a highly deregulated economy can affect the people in a country (though they do still seem to have a productive economy at least)
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Not all that surprised with the reports of low levels of happiness. Personally, I have family members living there and the way the education system is set up, it almost forces you to study that much because college admissions there tend to be weighted majorly based on the result of one major test (the Korean equivalent of the SAT). If you don't score well on that test, you're not in a good spot. Lots of pressure and lots of stress.
Interesting how the argument seems to be framed around welfare with its correlation to happiness. Didn't really consider it fully until now.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
Seems to be more of a cultural reason than an efficiency issue when it comes to the difference in hours studied. In Korea and other Asian cultures, the number of hours studied is believed to highly correlate with success. Thus, students tend to put insane number of hours studying thinking they'll be more successful the more they study because of this belief (not to mention a culture which emphasizes studying). It's not so much Korean children are half as efficient as Finnish children at studying as it is that Finnish children probably tend to incorporate the viewpoint that too much studying (i.e overstudying) is not good for you, which tends to be less of a popular belief in Korea which tends to lean more towards the concept that "overstudying doesn't exist."
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
The reason it ran is because the author disagrees with the general economic direction that the British government has taken over the past two decades, culminating in the present austerity (which has completely failed to produce any growth for the last two years now despite all the promises to the contrary) and the looming privatisation-by-stealth of the NHS, against the wishes of the majority of the population. But it's not surprising that a British newspaper would publish news about South Korea that claims to shed some light on what's happening in Britain, so I don't really see that as a problem. It also fits his general thesis that neoliberalism is a disaster for the people who have to live under it. I pointed out in the original post that this was the angle he's coming from. P
ersonally I find his broad analysis of neoliberalism pretty convincing (and damning) but that isn't the reason I posted it here, the reason I posted it here is that it gives some interesting insight into what it's like being a young person in South Korea. It's already a tough enough decision to tell your parents that you're going to try to make a living off playing games competitively, and almost all the pro-gamers say their parents opposed the idea. This gives some idea of why they might be so opposed - with the majority of the population not having permanent contracts, with no social safety net worth the name, with a medical emergency potentially leading to bankruptcy, and with the Red Queen race that apparently makes up the education system it's a hell of a big risk to take, even bigger than you might originally assume.
I live in Korea, and yeah, times are really bad. It used to be that you come out of a decent university and you can get a decent job as well, but nowadays, even if you graduate out of one of the top three colleges in korea(SKY), times are still tough. from what my parents have told me, back in their times, the korean economy was just starting and so jobs were everywhere, but nowadays, with the economy sort of at a halt without much room for dramatic progress, there aren't any jobs around. Times are really tough in korea these days even if u get into a good university. imagine if you don't...
Korean children study twice as many hours as Finnish children? What the hell? Do they have 12 hour days in school? I can't see how having no hobbies or time with friends is in any way healthy for children.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
On April 02 2012 18:53 Tazza wrote: I live in Korea, and yeah, times are really bad. It used to be that you come out of a decent university and you can get a decent job as well, but nowadays, even if you graduate out of one of the top three colleges in korea(SKY), times are still tough. from what my parents have told me, back in their times, the korean economy was just starting and so jobs were everywhere, but nowadays, with the economy sort of at a halt without much room for dramatic progress, there aren't any jobs around. Times are really tough in korea these days even if u get into a good university. imagine if you don't...
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Really good point. Would want more information on this, especially how ineffective it is compared to finish students who simply practise half the time. Is it really this bad in SK? Get the feeling of slavery from the article, with fear as whip. What happens on SK when someone is losing their job? They have enough welfare for food and shelter I hope.
I also want to shed light on, that happiness is something you can feel in a trailerpark home, but so many people have demands before they allow themself to feel happy. This article describe a little different feeling, to feel safe of your basic needs, economy for shelter and food regardless of your job situation
On April 02 2012 18:45 Apex wrote: Not all that surprised with the reports of low levels of happiness. Personally, I have family members living there and the way the education system is set up, it almost forces you to study that much because college admissions there tend to be weighted majorly based on the result of one major test (the Korean equivalent of the SAT). If you don't score well on that test, you're not in a good spot. Lots of pressure and lots of stress.
Interesting how the argument seems to be framed around welfare with its correlation to happiness. Didn't really consider it fully until now.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
Seems to be more of a cultural reason than an efficiency issue when it comes to the difference in hours studied. In Korea and other Asian cultures, the number of hours studied is believed to highly correlate with success. Thus, students tend to put insane number of hours studying thinking they'll be more successful the more they study because of this belief (not to mention a culture which emphasizes studying). It's not so much Korean children are half as efficient as Finnish children at studying as it is that Finnish children probably tend to incorporate the viewpoint that too much studying (i.e overstudying) is not good for you, which tends to be less of a popular belief in Korea which tends to lean more towards the concept that "overstudying doesn't exist."
It's not a cultural difference. With the amount of information that are thrown at them, you really have to study that much. The problem is that everyone wants to get into a few select universities because there aren't that many well paid jobs for hiring. The bigger problem is that most Koreans literally stop their education path once they are in the college.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
There are recorded situations in which people killed their own children because they believed the end of the world was just around the corner.
Why would a much more real threat (North-Korea) not inspire people to kill themselves?
I don't believe that is the major contributor, but living next to a highly unstable nation that wants to more or less wipe you out, must add some level of stress.
On the other hand, Israel is surrounded by several nations that want to kill them, but they don't seem to be that depressed.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
There are recorded situations in which people killed their own children because they believed the end of the world was just around the corner.
Why would a much more real threat (North-Korea) not inspire people to kill themselves?
I don't believe that is the major contributor, but living next to a highly unstable nation that wants to more or less wipe you out, must add some level of stress.
On the other hand, Israel is surrounded by several nations that want to kill them, but they don't seem to be that depressed.
Maybe, but I feel that those sorts of cases are so rare that its we shouldn't use them to generalize an entire nation.
Here in the US, we are made to believe that terrorists are out to get us, but we don't seem to be that unhappy. You also brought up Israel, which is a better example than the US. In both cases it seems like it just bolsters a stronger sense of nationalism. It might still be different though, since both US and Israel are significantly better armed than our enemies.
Anyway, I just thought that the guy was fishing for an alternative reason to divert attention away from the very reasonable arguments made by the article and that he came up with a pretty bad one. It might be a stretch to attribute a country's unhappiness (which is a highly subjective idea) to just economic deregulation, but arguing against it by bringing up an even worse reason to pin it on isnt great either.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism.
You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying.
Its probably prudent to hang your own biases at the door before accusing others of not doing the same.
The article did little more acknowledge Korea's rapid growth in GDP, innovation and academic excellence and contrast it with its abysmal rankings in 'human satisfaction'.
The conclusion simply suggested that were Britian to undertake the same growth-intensive measure in their economic model, they will likely see the decrease in the personal happiness of their population.
I must have missed the paragraph loudly extolling the gospel of Marx.
Interesting article. From my own personal perspective I feel we have a smiliar situation between Denmark and Sweden. (I spent alot of time in both countries)
The Swedish people are amazing. They worker harder and longer. They study more and get better grades than us. And I have no study about this, but I'm pretty sure Danes rank very highly on the "laziest people on earth" list.
Yet if you look at the outcome, Sweden has a very high rate of suicides meanwhile Denmark was labeled as the happiest place on earth not too long ago. Also, for some reason, Sweden isn't even doing better than us economically which blows my mind since they also have alot more huge multinational businesses.
I've always felt good and safe having this tremendous security network in my country, but it turns out it might actually be benificial, too.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying.
It's really depressing when people come out with supposedly 'anti-capitalist' statements such as these about 'slavery'. How is anyone meant to be take any politically left thought seriously when people spout this nonsense? It just makes it so easy to ridicule the left.
Since the article mentions international testing, I would like to add that comparing nations by standardized tests can give a very misleading picture. The Netherlands for example scores the best out of non-asian nations for 'Grade 12', but this has to be because only the most gifted kids go to secondary school for that long, excluding the less gifted kids from being tested at all. Those not suited for University go to more proffesion-oriented colleges either 1 or 2 years sooner.
Math education in the Netherlands is extremely lacking in secondary schools for example, even comparing to only western nations, that is pretty much a fact. It is then very strange to see The Netherlands so high up the list. Though the 'advanced' list does paint a more realistic picture, because advanced classes don't exist in the same way.
Fact is that Asian, American and European education systems emphasize different skills. Asian systems very heavily emphasize Math and individual achievement, while Dutch education strongly emphasizes critical-thinking skills, understanding and group-work. From students that go for a semester abroad almost all agree that work-load in the US and Asia is much higher than here, but the work tends to be 'easier' in terms of depth of analysis, atleast for Economics.
I follow an English-language program that gets alot of international students, many of whom are Asian. The Asian students all score much better than other students on Math-heavy subjects, and the opposite is somewhat true for non-Math subjects. All international students agree that their Dutch class-mates are in general extremely lazy in their eyes. Point is that any test that wants to directly compare scores from different educational cultures is likely to be extremely biased one way or the other. Concluding that Asian education is outright better because of Math-testing and work ethic is questionable at best, considering many countries largely ignore the social sciences that are important in many Western nations.
Considering the great burden it puts on young people, perhaps the Asian nations would be wise to chill out a bit on the work-load. It really isn't necessary to be so proficient at math at such a young age. Some things are absorbed more efficiently by a fully matured brain.Then again I wouldn't want them to be as lazy and as terrible at Math as the average Dutch student either.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism.
You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job.
you are wrong. Because in socialism companies are owned by the state, and the state is owned by its people. (in theory!) So it's more or less a circle there people -> state -> companies -> people, while in capitalism with companies owned by private persons: boss -> company -> worker This is VERY simplified, but more or less it works out this way.
It could be due to inequality! There is a lot of evidence that suggests that more equal societies do alot better in terms of happiness and alot of other 'social' criteria, check it out!
Clearly an economist finds non-cultural reasons for unhappiness. If it's a free market that is making koreans unhappy, why is the rest of the western world which is also on a free market not unhappy? Japan and Korea have and have had more than just one thing in common culturally, particularly an intense pressure to conform. Why is that not even touched on? I feel like this guy simply has an opinion and then picked someone to try and back up his opinion. It's the kind of logic you find on the internet all the time(and usually dismiss out of hand).
korea's economy grew too fast,and ppl failed to adapt. the so called modern high life, aka glamorous Las vegas has ruined and taunted men to work hard and earn their hot trophy wives and to enjoy their nightlife and the girls. men in power will do anything to have what they want. possibly masochistic(think korean internet trolls) this is why there's so much gender inequality. every guy there is thinking about hot girls > think kpop and overly sexualised women.many feel discouraged and turn to gaming/heavy drinking soju and other activities. the work for pleasure(hot wife) model there is ruining peoples' lives. think about the celeb scandals/ suicides/gossip. people perhaps are sick and tired of the korean bureaucratic ministers sexually taking advantage of the women there. that must explain the constant disturbed misogynistic male internet troll. Am I correct about this?(asking koreans here) For those that didn't know korean ginseng makes men horny.
on another note japan does resemble skorea mostly as in the lost decadeas well as being technologically advanced with high suicide rates with cram schools.
I mean look at china, so many ppl starving in poverty yet ppl are still so resilient and hardworking. To sum up I think people are frustrated at the extreme hierarchical structure there. I live in Australia and things are so relaxed- the high school is waste of time and rote learning in asia is a waste of time.
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
People there have to realize there's diminishing returns on hours of studying. There's a limit to how much information you can absorb in a day. Those school children who make these crazy hours every day would probably learn the same amount if they spent less hours studying so they can recharge and refocus during breaks. And they'd be a whoooole lot happier!
It's like the people who say they just study 10 hours a day before major tests. They're actually wasting their time. Half the time you're just on "autopilot", reading but not really registering what you read.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
'None are more stupid than those who falsely believe they are enslaved' would be equally fitting.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
But isn't desire an integral part of the capitalist system? We need people to continue consuming to keep the economy rolling don't we?
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism.
You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job.
you are wrong. Because in socialism companies are owned by the state, and the state is owned by its people. (in theory!) So it's more or less a circle there people -> state -> companies -> people, while in capitalism with companies owned by private persons: boss -> company -> worker This is VERY simplified, but more or less it works out this way.
In the eyes of socialists, capitalists are slaves. In the eyes of capitalists, socialists are lazy.
I just find it funny that with the privilege of actually asking from the number of Koreans lurking in these forums people still prefer to theorycraft and act as "experts" on this matter.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Really need actual Koreans to come and comment on the situation here. Also, governments always have to make a choice between leaning towards the happiness/welfare of the citizens compared to the economic productivity of the nation. Whats important is finding out if the governement has overdone it in its pursuit for economic growth.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
But isn't desire an integral part of the capitalist system? We need people to continue consuming to keep the economy rolling don't we?
Thats the dilemma isn't it? Pursue more material goods for happiness, but in the long run, happiness is compromised.
What hurts even more is that if you can't detach yourself fully from this path of consumerism, then other countries will simply catch up and outdo you. So its really more about learning to be self-contented on the personal level really.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Well this is kinda how I have felt all my life. My parents and my environment in which I grew up never really forced me to excel at anything.It was good enough if you just did the work you are supposed to do.My parents aren't rich,they are a middle class family and I can imagine their income would be considered lower class in some other more developed country lol. The point is,all my life I had every basic thing I needed and nothing in excess,I was never unhappy about not having a bigger house,car.etc. and I never felt like I need more than I have right now.I just want to continue at the standard that I am living now and eventually be able to give my kids the same thing I had,I don't see why they would need more. The people that usually work hard and strive for something better are those with a chip on their shoulder that come from rich family's or people that come from poor family's,immigrants and such.This is not 100% the case ofc but generally its true.They want a better life for themselves and they overwork their ass to get there.I understand that. I just never felt the need to do something similar and I'm not sure if its good or bad. My point is that I was never really stressed out and unhappy because of the work load to the point where I would say:"holy shit,life sucks".I'm still fairly young but,I can see how you could go through life being perfectly average and being happy.
On April 02 2012 19:53 goldenwitch wrote: Clearly an economist finds non-cultural reasons for unhappiness. If it's a free market that is making koreans unhappy, why is the rest of the western world which is also on a free market not unhappy? Japan and Korea have and have had more than just one thing in common culturally, particularly an intense pressure to conform. Why is that not even touched on? I feel like this guy simply has an opinion and then picked someone to try and back up his opinion. It's the kind of logic you find on the internet all the time(and usually dismiss out of hand).
Having read most of Chang's books: He would argue that there is no such thing as an intrinsically better or happier culture. Whatever features are prominent in a culture are dependant to a large extent on the economic development a country is going through.
All in all, Ha-Joon Chang is one of the few excellent authors in international development economics and deserves to be read if you're interested in the subject at all. You're allowed to disagree with the guy, but at least go for the full version of his argument.
Korean kids are sent to "academies" starting as soon as they start going to grade school. Taekwondo, English, piano, art, math, what have you. This begins mostly as a day care with a theme, because both parents are working full-time jobs. A large portion of their incomes goes to this, too. Huh.
As they enter middle and high school, the kids are under increasing pressure from parents and peers to outperform everyone. The measure of performance is test grades, and the point of reference is siblings, what your parents claim they were at your age, other students around your age and in your class, and that kid in the newspaper and on youtube. And how much money you're going to be making in 10 years. This is assumed to be an increasing function of how many hours you spend in front of a textbook.
High school and college students are under extreme pressure to perform well, and the only way they are told to do this is to study more. If they fail a test, they are worthless, and everything they've invested their lives in up to that point is a waste. Hence the student suicides. (Anecdote is not evidence, but at my school there was a string of student suicides, which resulted in the school reverting their "English-only" lecture policy implemented a couple of years ago.)
This produces a workforce that knows how to take tests and is ill prepared for any actual work involving thinking, but is expected to perform better than well-trained and educated engineers and scientists that are increasingly being imported from sane countries. The solution is to work unpaid overtime, including weekends.
You get a population that knows no measure of worth other than money and the perception of your peers and family. When the inevitable half of the people realize they are under average, they become angry and depressed. After all, they did everything right and nothing's working out. Some of them evidently become suicidally depressed.
Another aspect to this is that a psychiatrist is for crazy people. Spending money on something to make you feel better, when obviously feeling better is a state of mind that you can achieve with pure will power is a self-indulging, disgusting behavior, and is a waste of money that you should be saving up for the next car, or house, or your kids' education at the academies. On a similar line, games are pure evil unless you can get big bucks out of it. Hence the birth of professional gaming.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw
My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
Is Pavlov's dog guilty for her salivation? The beauty of consumer society is that it preys on us by design, provides the means by which to buy things immediately (credit) and constantly reinvents desire so that we consume at a constant pace. It brings with it the promise of status, pleasure and desirability to the purchaser. All these things sound quite lovely, no? and only for 24 installments of $29.99 a week. Just because you didn't get trawled into this desire circle-jerk doesn't give you the right to scorn others. After all, its meant to work on us.
Most successful people come preset with many advantages, be it genetics (physical or mental prowess), or circumstantial (ghetto vs upper middle class suburb and all the things that come with them). It is a fairytale that anyone can become millionaire if they try hard enough. So what of these poor humans, not so different to us, not born as fortunate as us. Let 'em starve cause they can't digest a calculus textbook? Since you cite morality, I'd love to hear you excuse that.
You know what I think? The super rich guy doesn't need his third Audi, and it seems you'd agree, since you seem to be so against the perils of consumerism, and I quote "stop wasting you [sic] money on whatever is hip". But you know what, that poor kid from the shitty neighborhood could sure use some better healthcare, education or a nutritional diet.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw
My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw
My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast.
And now we see the important point..
Indeed, the important point is that it is theoretically possible for a wealthy society to organise itself in such a way that professional achievement is not the only consideration. And it is possible for people not to aspire towards ever increasing standards of material wealth, while still maintaining a largely 'capitalist' economic system.
On April 02 2012 20:22 BottleAbuser wrote: Korean kids are sent to "academies" starting as soon as they start going to grade school. Taekwondo, English, piano, art, math, what have you. This begins mostly as a day care with a theme, because both parents are working full-time jobs. A large portion of their incomes goes to this, too. Huh.
As they enter middle and high school, the kids are under increasing pressure from parents and peers to outperform everyone. The measure of performance is test grades, and the point of reference is siblings, what your parents claim they were at your age, other students around your age and in your class, and that kid in the newspaper and on youtube. And how much money you're going to be making in 10 years. This is assumed to be an increasing function of how many hours you spend in front of a textbook.
High school and college students are under extreme pressure to perform well, and the only way they are told to do this is to study more. If they fail a test, they are worthless, and everything they've invested their lives in up to that point is a waste. Hence the student suicides. (Anecdote is not evidence, but at my school there was a string of student suicides, which resulted in the school reverting their "English-only" lecture policy implemented a couple of years ago.)
This produces a workforce that knows how to take tests and is ill prepared for any actual work involving thinking, but is expected to perform better than well-trained and educated engineers and scientists that are increasingly being imported from sane countries. The solution is to work unpaid overtime, including weekends.
You get a population that knows no measure of worth other than money and the perception of your peers and family. When the inevitable half of the people realize they are under average, they become angry and depressed. After all, they did everything right and nothing's working out. Some of them evidently become suicidally depressed.
Another aspect to this is that a psychiatrist is for crazy people. Spending money on something to make you feel better, when obviously feeling better is a state of mind that you can achieve with pure will power is a self-indulging, disgusting behavior, and is a waste of money that you should be saving up for the next car, or house, or your kids' education at the academies. On a similar line, games are pure evil unless you can get big bucks out of it. Hence the birth of professional gaming.
I think you can put this to use in Taiwan aswell, though i do not know Korea very well i have alot of experience with Taiwan. As i travel there often for my company. The presure those kids are under is just extreme, we all want kids to do wel in the future and parents often push kids but spending 14+ hours on school as a child is very punishing and it makes you wonder if this is really the best for our future generation.
I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
1. please don't carelessly throw around the term slavery. working a minimum wage job in south korea still gives you a higher standard of living than most of the world. it isn't even close to being a slave.
2. the author is taking south korean unhappiness and applying his or her economic views to be the cause. there are many different angles you can use to explain the unhappiness. one of them is the korean culture's emphasis on superficial things in life.
3. while the author is right that korean capitalistic views are causing income inequality, those same views are the reason south korea has risen in status in an extremely short period. most asian countries view it was a necessary evil to catch up to europe and america before the first world countries enact policies to bring them down.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
Nobody can be definitively right, but people can definitely be wrong. Shouldn't the topics with the most difficult answers be discussed the most extensively?
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
According to a recent World Values Survey, Koreans are the second unhappiest people (after Hungary) among the citizens of the 32 OECD countries studied.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
First of all you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what a theory is in science. Second, statistics always come with a degree of uncertainty, no exceptions, denial of this fact is incredibly stupid.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
nice article but the conclusions drawn are a bit off. Children dont study hard because the employment market is hard, they do it because: a) it's a cultural thing, b) their parents drive them to. And though both can be shown to be influenced by the employment market the connection is too weak to be taken as a major contributor. The whole mess is up because the suicide rate increased, which is thought to show the unhappiness ratio. It only shows that some few people become extremely unhappy but tells little of the overall nation happiness.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
Nope. Wrong.
Haha, care to explain how?
If you understand degrees of certainty than you'd understand that theories have a greater probability of being true than say an unjustified belief. They aren't just ideas.
On April 02 2012 21:17 Cheerio wrote: nice article but the conclusions drawn are a bit off. Children dont study hard because the employment market is hard, they do it because: a) it's a cultural thing, b) their parents drive them to. And though both can be shown to be influenced by the employment market the connection is too weak to be taken as a major contributor. The whole mess is up because the suicide rate increased, which is thought to show the unhappiness ratio. It only shows that some few people become extremely unhappy but tells little of the overall nation happiness.
... You forgot to ask the most important question of A) why is it a cultural thing? and B) Why do their parents drive them to? If you ask those questions you'd see that it is about the employment market. How do i know this? I teach middle school and high school students in Korea. i talk to the parents as well as the korean teachers there.
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote: Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote: I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
Nope. Wrong.
Haha, care to explain how?
If you understand degrees of certainty than you'd understand that theories have a greater probability of being true than say an unjustified belief. They aren't just ideas.
Nice first post. Ok sure but the basis for your degrees of certainty is based on how many facts support each theory, and the guy I was originally arguing with was saying that there are no facts in economics, just theories. I was just pointing out the absurdity of such a notion
On April 02 2012 20:53 RancidTurnip wrote: [quote]
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
Nope. Wrong.
Haha, care to explain how?
If you understand degrees of certainty than you'd understand that theories have a greater probability of being true than say an unjustified belief. They aren't just ideas.
Nice first post. Ok sure but the basis for your degrees of certainty is based on how many facts support each theory, and the guy I was originally arguing with was saying that there are no facts in economics, just theories. I was just pointing out the absurdity of such a notion
I mean, would you go on to name some facts? I've been trying to think of some, but I'm pretty convinced that Economics is really just all theory. (i.e "true beyond a reasonable doubt" is what I was taught)
On April 02 2012 20:53 RancidTurnip wrote: [quote]
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
What so no one can be right and no one can be wrong in economics? So it's just a whole lot of armchair discussioning? That doesn't sound like a very worthwhile subject to me
There can be right and wrong in economics. Economics is just simply a way to describe/theorise about events that happens in real life, like many other subjects. Theories are formed from what actually happens then disproved/proved/built on from there.
In our complex world, there are millions of statistics one can pull to support one's argument. Its hard to tell whose wrong/right sometimes.
How can there be right and wrong when one is dealing with theories and not facts? And I disagree with you about the statistics, as long as tests are carried out scientifically and are peer reviewed then the only thing that the statistics will tell you is the truth. It's bad experimentation that causes bad statistics. By your logic nobody would use statistics because 'You never know, they could be wrong!'
I think you're misunderstanding the word theory.
No I think you are. Theories can't be right or wrong, they are just ideas. If a theory is proven to be right then it ceases to be a theory and becomes a fact
Nope. Wrong.
Haha, care to explain how?
If you understand degrees of certainty than you'd understand that theories have a greater probability of being true than say an unjustified belief. They aren't just ideas.
Nice first post. Ok sure but the basis for your degrees of certainty is based on how many facts support each theory, and the guy I was originally arguing with was saying that there are no facts in economics, just theories. I was just pointing out the absurdity of such a notion
I don't usually like to encourage such incredible intellectual laziness but I'm going to give you a hint: The opposite of fact is not theory. Please try to educate yourself atleast a little bit before you spread such horrible misconceptions. The nature of scientific theories is explained in numerous places on the internet, look it up.
This article annoys me to no end. Classic case of assuming correlation implies causation to suit a polictical/economic ideology. I'd like to point the major fallacy to this guys argument (deregulation screwed south korea), Hungary. Hungary scored lower than South Korea yet has an economic model much closer to what this guy is espousing. Of course this doesn't suit his agenda so it's not even mentioned.
I personally don't like these happiness survey's as happiness is so subjective and almost impossible to measure. The high suicide rate is startling but from a recent documentary I saw it would be much easier explained by the obsession of young people to look like their celebrity k-pop idols, cosmetic plastic surgery is all the rave.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Plexa wrote: Im glad Baezzi isn't around anymore ...
who was he? i googled and only found some articles but too tired to read them through since he writes in korean alot. was he a korean with alot of paranoia towards japanese or am i totally off here?
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
this is actually quite true. don't want to start a debate about that here but obviously this has gone too far (atleast that's how most of us 'westerners' feel about it). can't be healthy in any way.. ( T-T )
On April 02 2012 21:39 stylz wrote: This article annoys me to no end. Classic case of assuming correlation implies causation to suit a polictical/economic ideology. I'd like to point the major fallacy to this guys argument (deregulation screwed south korea), Hungary. Hungary scored lower than South Korea yet has an economic model much closer to what this guy is espousing. Of course this doesn't suit his agenda so it's not even mentioned.
I personally don't like these happiness survey's as happiness is so subjective and almost impossible to measure. The high suicide rate is startling but from a recent documentary I saw it would be much easier explained by the obsession of young people to look like their celebrity k-pop idols, cosmetic plastic surgery is all the rave.
Yes, exactly. We have to keep in mind that this is an article from Guardian, a left-leaning publication, that paints a poor light on capitalism and freer markets. The author's point about international companies pushing down investment does not even make sense. It is extremely disappointing that a popular media source such as the Guardian can publish such falsehood.
mainly 2 things there is a bad northen neigbour that requires large military expenditure to confront, it is not viable to do this and have a welfare state unless u have significantly higher taxes (talking 70-80s) which in turn stunts development vicious cycle..
...making them increase short-term profits by minimising investments. The ability of smaller, unlisted companies to invest was severely curtailed by a dramatic reduction in credit availability. Deregulation allowed banks to rush into more lucrative consumer loan markets, reducing the share of loans to business.
The resulting dramatic fall in investments has led to a substantial fall in economic growth from 6%-7% (in per capita terms) per year to under 4%...
This is the real problem from what I understand. We are now slave to a restrictive and short sighted economic system enamored for immediate profit. Rather than using money as a tool for the people, people are tools for money.
Everything else is just a consequence of this.
This is a mentality/education thing that requires a lot of courage and time to change, not really a matter of welfare state vs. austerity.
On April 02 2012 21:39 stylz wrote: This article annoys me to no end. Classic case of assuming correlation implies causation to suit a polictical/economic ideology. I'd like to point the major fallacy to this guys argument (deregulation screwed south korea), Hungary. Hungary scored lower than South Korea yet has an economic model much closer to what this guy is espousing. Of course this doesn't suit his agenda so it's not even mentioned.
I personally don't like these happiness survey's as happiness is so subjective and almost impossible to measure. The high suicide rate is startling but from a recent documentary I saw it would be much easier explained by the obsession of young people to look like their celebrity k-pop idols, cosmetic plastic surgery is all the rave.
Yes, exactly. We have to keep in mind that this is an article from Guardian, a left-leaning publication, that paints a poor light on capitalism and freer markets. The author's point about international companies pushing down investment does not even make sense. It is extremely disappointing that a popular media source such as the Guardian can publish such falsehood.
hell yeah. The Guardian cares about suicide rates. Damn left wing newspapers, they would write about anything these days...
I fail to see the problem. You can always go abroad if you visited a good university and can't find an adequate job (safe, well paid, etc) in your country. It may not solve the problem per se, but that seems to be better than being unhappy and borderline suicidal.
It's a cultural and social problem. South korea is really small but packed with people, making society ultra-competitive. You really have to grind your ass in order to get into good schools and get good jobs. The bad side is that people are a lot less happier than they could be because life is so competitive and hectic and because there is tremendous pressure to become "successful". The good side is that this is the reason why south korea is an economic giant and the world leader in shipbuilding, electronics, steel, LCD TV, and of course, gaming. big neighbors like china or russia have that much more natural resources and size of population but they don't even come close in a lot of industries.
I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Because no country was in the same position that korea was in at the end of the 1990's?
He's not saying that deregulation and cutting benefits will have these consequences either, just that the consequences of them can just as well be negative as positive. Chang isn't opposed to free markets in general, but the believes that they're only for the common good (ie. economic development/progress) when there is an even playing field. I can't believe the ease with which people are dismissing a world class economist without even bothering to read a book he wrote. This is the fortune cookie version of his argument and he would not (and does not) present this argument the same way in an academic context.
Deregulation and free markets at times fuck entire countries over completely. Just look at current day Mongolia, or 1990's Peru. Hell, just look at the way SK developed itself economically, free markets had nothing to do with it. That part of the 'free market' approach doesn't nearly get the attention it deserves in our current economical and political climate, where if anything is taken at face value its the myth that 'markets will solve everything'.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
I'm with you in this one.
"You came for us as children, while we slept Robbed us of our youth, our innocence Don't think that we've forgotten, don't think that we'll forget You, you've got a number, you've got a name
You can run, you can hide but never close your eyes Beware the sands of time, they're on our side "
(Revengeance - Tragedy)
Let's hope that the sands of time are indeed on our side.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
well that took a turn for the worse
i thought this was a feel good comment on how the america is great and capitalism is good
I'm watching Gantz right now, it's a manga with better dialogues and characters than most classic books, I recommend it to everybody not in those types of things [actually it's the first and only one i've read thanks to the TL thread about it]. One of the characters commits suicide because she was under so much pressure to study in school and be the best that she said she didn't live for herself but for her mom, it was pretty depressing I kinda felt 'her' pain.
My opinion is: Living in a true neoliberal country [Venezuela, but Colombia and especially in Mexico this is true] which I think the US is not because americans have welfare, quality education and a lot of social 'nets' to protect citizens, neoliberalism just like communism and any other government system needs a lot of propaganda for the people to believe it works, neoliberal propaganda includes myths like hardcore individuality, respect of your profession is only true if you earn a lot of money doing it, too much competition in the work place, the only way to live and be happy is having a ton of money and then show you how Lady Gaga did it and what not, using your time only to have succes monetarily and after years and years you finally achieve it, and then what? If it's not what you expected it's going to be pretty depressing investing all those years of study to realize that after you graduate and 'are free' your top CEO position demands 11 hours of work a day, you are old and your best years are behind and all the ladies chase you because you have money... depressing. What to do at that point give it all up? too harsh, I could see why if someone failed could commit suicide... some just enjoy the sex that comes with money but is it really that good?
On April 02 2012 18:41 Plexa wrote: Im glad Baezzi isn't around anymore ...
who was he? i googled and only found some articles but too tired to read them through since he writes in korean alot. was he a korean with alot of paranoia towards japanese or am i totally off here?
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
this is actually quite true. don't want to start a debate about that here but obviously this has gone too far (atleast that's how most of us 'westerners' feel about it). can't be healthy in any way.. ( T-T )
LOLOLOL
Sorry guys, i'm officially ashamed of being a westerner now. I didn't know westerners were completely ignorant :')
It seems the article is just geared towards clueless Westerners who don't understand differences in culture. South Korea imitated the Japanese model of economic development. It was pretty obvious that they were going to regret it sooner or later.
It's not just these two countries. China and many Southeast Asian countries with significant East Asian influences place too much of an emphasis on hours worked and/or studied as a measure of productivity. Japan and South Korea are just the ones who took it to the farthest extremes. Compared to what I'm doing at work now in the US, many of the things that are responsible for all the extra hours are just busywork. That and the fear of being the first in the office to go home from work, so they spend a lot of time waiting for somebody else to go home first.
School kids study for long hours because they are being asked to memorize all sorts of crap. A decade or so ago, I went to a Chinese school in the Philippines that had increasing numbers of Korean immigrants. You wouldn't believe how many teachers asked us to memorize stuff and used the "what if you get stuck on a deserted island" reasoning for it. When I went to the US for university, there's more of an emphasis on finding references and solving problems on open book exams.
Japan's economy is in a rut because people are working too much and don't have the time to spend their money. They're just too tired to go out after work. The money doesn't circulate and they're too dependent on exports to buy the stuff they make. South Korea's heading down a similar path.
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Because no country was in the same position that korea was in at the end of the 1990's?
He's not saying that deregulation and cutting benefits will have these consequences either, just that the consequences of them can just as well be negative as positive. Chang isn't opposed to free markets in general, but the believes that they're only for the common good (ie. economic development/progress) when there is an even playing field. I can't believe the ease with which people are dismissing a world class economist without even bothering to read a book he wrote. This is the fortune cookie version of his argument and he would not (and does not) present this argument the same way in an academic context.
Deregulation and free markets at times fuck entire countries over completely. Just look at current day Mongolia, or 1990's Peru. Hell, just look at the way SK developed itself economically, free markets had nothing to do with it. That part of the 'free market' approach doesn't nearly get the attention it deserves in our current economical and political climate, where if anything is taken at face value its the myth that 'markets will solve everything'.
I agree with your point that the commentator is worth respecting (though asking someone to read his book in order to respond to his newspaper article is a bit much), but current day Mongolia isn't a perfect example to back up your point:
Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Exactly.
When using his examples of why the suicide rate is higher, and applying it to other countries, it all falls apart and holds zero weight.
People suiciding more in South Korea has nothing to do with how much safety net welfare the country possesses.
But he managed to get an emotional response from the anti-capitalist and bleeding heart crowd, which is typical.
i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Because no country was in the same position that korea was in at the end of the 1990's?
He's not saying that deregulation and cutting benefits will have these consequences either, just that the consequences of them can just as well be negative as positive. Chang isn't opposed to free markets in general, but the believes that they're only for the common good (ie. economic development/progress) when there is an even playing field. I can't believe the ease with which people are dismissing a world class economist without even bothering to read a book he wrote. This is the fortune cookie version of his argument and he would not (and does not) present this argument the same way in an academic context.
Deregulation and free markets at times fuck entire countries over completely. Just look at current day Mongolia, or 1990's Peru. Hell, just look at the way SK developed itself economically, free markets had nothing to do with it. That part of the 'free market' approach doesn't nearly get the attention it deserves in our current economical and political climate, where if anything is taken at face value its the myth that 'markets will solve everything'.
Free market is good for the world as a whole but doesn't have to be good for a country in particular. Basically you're saying your own countries growth is more important than the worlds growth. And it's not like SK is the only country to be protectionist every trade block has trade barriers and all which screw over people somewhere else in the world.
So South Korea distorted its economy for decades and that finally caught up with it? And decades of distortion haven't been fixed by one decade of slightly less distortion?
Obviously the solution is more distortion!
Developing and developed economies are two different things, you won't find a capitalist country that didn't have a heavily interventionist government role in the economy during the developing phase, and you won't find a capitalist country that didn't have to go through hard times at the transition point between developing and developed, caused by government distortions in the market that were out of date and had started to hinder rather than help.
But some people wish to go on with business as usual because it "worked" in the past, no matter how many panics and collapses it caused they don't care, because they're motivated by ideology more than results. Government can cause and exacerbate panics in the 19th century, the Great Depression and stagflation in the 20th, but the solution is always more government,
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
On April 02 2012 23:17 Sinedd wrote: what do you mean unhappy ???
WHAT ?!
its my DREAM just to go there !
or Japan !
let alone live in one of those..
damn.. some people just dont appreciate the awesomeness of their country !
Um what?How would you know how living in Korea is really like if you have never been there in the first place? And even if you were there or lived there,living in a country as a foreigner is a totally different experience than being a native.
On April 02 2012 23:22 Velr wrote: Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
Okay, let's increase people's safety welfare and you're guaranteeing people will stop sleeping while standing in the subway?
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either.
On April 02 2012 23:22 Velr wrote: Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
Okay, let's increase people's safety welfare and you're guaranteeing people will stop sleeping while standing in the subway?
I have a irking suspicion it won't.
Yeah because that was totally his argument. Well done.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either.
Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates.
The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself.
On April 02 2012 23:14 Yorbon wrote:Sorry guys, i'm officially ashamed of being a westerner now. I didn't know westerners were completely ignorant :')
Too retarded to realize that you should probably not go off-topic and instead PM me? Or atleast, please, come up with some arguments or something not just "LOLOLOL:ing" like an imbecille. Please, PM me.
On April 02 2012 22:44 white_horse wrote: It's a cultural and social problem. South korea is really small but packed with people, making society ultra-competitive. You really have to grind your ass in order to get into good schools and get good jobs. The bad side is that people are a lot less happier than they could be because life is so competitive and hectic and because there is tremendous pressure to become "successful". The good side is that this is the reason why south korea is an economic giant and the world leader in shipbuilding, electronics, steel, LCD TV, and of course, gaming. big neighbors like china or russia have that much more natural resources and size of population but they don't even come close in a lot of industries.
Having a small and densely populated country does not guarantee that society is ultra-competitive. See, for example, the various Southeast Asian countries.
By the same token, having a large and moderately populated country does not guarantee that society lags behind in strategic industries. The US and various EU countries are, for example, world leaders in technology and industry.
There are benefits to running an ultra-competitive, cutthroat society like South Korea's, but it's not a black and white trade-off as you describe it. Countries at different stages of development have different industrial structures and priorities. South Korea is a newly industrialized country - like Japan was in the 70s and 80s - but I don't see it being at this stage forever.
For this same reason, comparing South Korea to China or Russia is a bit of a mistake.
China is about 20-30 years behind the development stage that South Korea is presently in, and its government and economy are of a very different structure. Although China follows the same model that South Korea has followed - the export-based model - it's not going to obtain the same results simply on the basis of there not being enough consumers for the exports of a country of 1.4 billion people. Its government's unwillingness to let go of its state-controlled corporations - the SOEs that make up the bulk of China's strategic industries - also stifles private sector competition and is what prevents China from seriously entering industries like, say, consumer electronics.
Russia, which is a post-industrial country, is the world leader in a number of key strategic industries - ie military hardware, materials, and research. Russia does not run an export-based economic model, however, but a resource-based model. Russia provides energy and materials to Europe itself - a necessary role, and the Russians benefit greatly from it.
Is this why Koreans excel at starcraft2? the overall unhappiness in the society has lead to people to seek happiness in computer games. just a thought...
This is old news. Korea's society was pretty shit before I left it, and a decade later it's only gone worse. The system was always broken but the governments have never actually addressed the most fundamental issues and the current government has only made it worse, particularly in the education system. The education system needs to be examined and restructured but people don't give a shit and try to just be at the top of a fucked up system. Pretty much a "if I run faster than the guy next to me then I'll escape the bear that's chasing us".
This is partially why I find the whole kpop obsession that has swept the world recently to be really abhorrent. People eat up what is probably the most vapid entertainment industry in the entirety of Asia while Korea thrives on a superficial, materialistic smoke and mirrors. Underneath all that make up and plastic is a very haggard, tired, and repressed society, especially with the young generation.
I hope the next government will be better, but I don't hold high hopes to it.
On April 02 2012 23:14 Yorbon wrote:Sorry guys, i'm officially ashamed of being a westerner now. I didn't know westerners were completely ignorant :')
Too retarded to realize that you should probably not go off-topic and instead PM me? Or atleast, please, come up with some arguments or something not just "LOLOLOL:ing" like an imbecille. Please, PM me.
So why didn't you PM him?
OT - while this thread seems to be veering off topic with what is turning into a capitalism vs. socialism debate (which ain't gonna end well), some of the points made here I have found particularly interesting, especially that The Guardian is clearly using this research to make a political point 'back home' as it were. The Guardian always seems to disappointment lately, and I'm one of the apparently liberal education 20 somethings it appeals to - at least with The Sun and the other rightwing rags there's no pretention, you get what you expect....
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Because no country was in the same position that korea was in at the end of the 1990's?
He's not saying that deregulation and cutting benefits will have these consequences either, just that the consequences of them can just as well be negative as positive. Chang isn't opposed to free markets in general, but the believes that they're only for the common good (ie. economic development/progress) when there is an even playing field. I can't believe the ease with which people are dismissing a world class economist without even bothering to read a book he wrote. This is the fortune cookie version of his argument and he would not (and does not) present this argument the same way in an academic context.
Deregulation and free markets at times fuck entire countries over completely. Just look at current day Mongolia, or 1990's Peru. Hell, just look at the way SK developed itself economically, free markets had nothing to do with it. That part of the 'free market' approach doesn't nearly get the attention it deserves in our current economical and political climate, where if anything is taken at face value its the myth that 'markets will solve everything'.
I agree with your point that the commentator is worth respecting (though asking someone to read his book in order to respond to his newspaper article is a bit much), but current day Mongolia isn't a perfect example to back up your point:
Even with a cynical view, Mongolia has a chance to do very very well out of the capitalist system.
I was referring to the effect the first World Back Structural Adjustment Program (SAP) had on mongolia as a country. It's hard to believe, but Mongolia at the start of the 1990's had more industry, more production and higher average income then China had. Then the World Bank forced their first SAP on them, opening their markets, rapidly destroying their industry because it was uncompetitive on a global level, lowering wages, and forcing the country to specialize in low-profit agriculture. You can make a similar case for Peru in the middle of the 1990's, where liberalization basicly forced the entire country into growing bananas and led to the collapse of average wage levels. It could even apply to most of Asia during their financial crash and the SAP programs the washington consensus forced upon them.
It's obviously excessive to read an entire book to respond on a forum, but if it actually interests you and you want to be able to have an informed opinion on matters like this, newspapers are not enough.
On April 02 2012 22:44 Zato-1 wrote: I hope no one's taking the article at face value, because it's so full of judgment values without any shred of supporting evidence it gives me a headache. Bank deregulation and opening the stock market lead to South Korea being one of the unhappiest countries in the world? Then why has nothing of the sort happened with other developed countries which have taken similar steps?
I get the article's main argument: small amounts of welfare benefits have bad consequences for the country as a whole. But without any supporting evidence other than spurious linking to the country's happiness, I call bullshit. You want to claim correlation between the two? Make a graph and list all of the OECD countries, their level of happiness and welfare spending as a percentage of GDP. Even then you wouldn't show causality. Instead, the article relies on feel-good anecdotal evidence, to reach a conclusion... the conclusion being, from a left-leaning UK newspaper, that the UK shouldn't cut welfare spending.
Give me a break.
Because no country was in the same position that korea was in at the end of the 1990's?
He's not saying that deregulation and cutting benefits will have these consequences either, just that the consequences of them can just as well be negative as positive. Chang isn't opposed to free markets in general, but the believes that they're only for the common good (ie. economic development/progress) when there is an even playing field. I can't believe the ease with which people are dismissing a world class economist without even bothering to read a book he wrote. This is the fortune cookie version of his argument and he would not (and does not) present this argument the same way in an academic context.
Deregulation and free markets at times fuck entire countries over completely. Just look at current day Mongolia, or 1990's Peru. Hell, just look at the way SK developed itself economically, free markets had nothing to do with it. That part of the 'free market' approach doesn't nearly get the attention it deserves in our current economical and political climate, where if anything is taken at face value its the myth that 'markets will solve everything'.
Free market is good for the world as a whole but doesn't have to be good for a country in particular. Basically you're saying your own countries growth is more important than the worlds growth. And it's not like SK is the only country to be protectionist every trade block has trade barriers and all which screw over people somewhere else in the world.
What's good for the world as a whole is rising income levels in all countries and a diminishing wealth gap between nations. Free trade with countries that are unable to compete leads to a situation where the underdeveloped country will never be able to escape its position; its essentially 21st century colonialism. Countries are right for using protectionism for their non-competitive sectors, because if they don't they'll never develop that sector. US manufacturing, US Steel, Korean Steel, Japanese/Korean cars, none of it would have been possible without fierce protectionism and in the end the world as a whole benefits from the trade and competition that occurs once countries have actual competitive sectors.
Smart well-led countries (like China, India, Brazil) actually reckognize this and act on it. Free trade in low-tech manufacturing, protectionism for the sectors they want to be a part of in the future (biotech, aviation). Deregulation and free markets can have extremely destructive effects that are not in the interest of anyone, which is why policymakers need to carefully consider all options and not simply choose deregulation as a default option.
Also, as a more general note: Cultural explanations are bullshit. You can find positive/negative qualities about any culture and then use those in such a way that it reflects the current economical climate. Germans were considered lazy when the rest of Europe was industrializing, yet a couple of decades later they were considered efficient and always on time. Islam was considered conducive to science and trade at some point, but look how it is treated today. If a country is doing well, positives get associated with it. If it is doing poorly, the negatives come out. Not to mention that economic 'good times' also lead to a change in the attitudes of the population itself. If anything, economic development creates culture more then the other way around. Concepts like time, efficiency, they only start to mean something once you actually have to be somewhere and do something in a somewhat competitive environment. (This line of reasoning is similar to the one Chang utilizes in his works).
On April 02 2012 23:14 Yorbon wrote:Sorry guys, i'm officially ashamed of being a westerner now. I didn't know westerners were completely ignorant :')
Too retarded to realize that you should probably not go off-topic and instead PM me? Or atleast, please, come up with some arguments or something not just "LOLOLOL:ing" like an imbecille. Please, PM me.
So why didn't you PM him?
OT - while this thread seems to be veering off topic with what is turning into a capitalism vs. socialism debate (which ain't gonna end well), some of the points made here I have found particularly interesting, especially that The Guardian is clearly using this research to make a political point 'back home' as it were. The Guardian always seems to disappointment lately, and I'm one of the apparently liberal education 20 somethings it appeals to - at least with The Sun and the other rightwing rags there's no pretention, you get what you expect....
I did. So why do you bother?
Btw OT stands for off-topic while OnT is what you meant.
On April 02 2012 23:45 Tobberoth wrote: Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
My thoughts on this are similar.
The author refers to South Korea's system as the "US-UK mould"; and the deregulation and welfare cuts he referes to is very similar to what happened in the US during the Reagan administration. So why isn't the US an education obsessed society with a high suicide rate? While the lack of social programs and government attention to socio-economic issues may have some impact here; clearly there has to be something specific to Korea that is contributing to this situation.
Cultural factors seem to be an important factor here; what of course comes to mind is the steriotypical asian parent who puts incredible pressure on thier child to perform 110%. Whether that's entirely accurate or not, I think the constant social pressure on individuals to constantly compete has got to be part of the equation.
what i ask myself is why SK? I mean problems with espacially young people with good education( college/university exams) don´t get a job or those agency workers exist in other industrial countries( spain or germany had lot of problems with agency work) too. Almost every country had some sort of crisis or depression when economic growth goes back. I think that you can not say people are unhappy just because of the lack of economic growth. As the article says the fear of falling into "lower class" because of a bad social net might be an important factor. But in my opinion those Asian industrial countries like Japan or SK another big problem in their education system. In school kids have way more than in western countries ( i only talk about state schools, i don´t know how it looks at public schools) and parents put them under huge pressure. In my English class we discussed that and my teacher said that way more kids and teenager commit suicide than in our country( Germany). For me this high pressure put on everybody and especially kids is an important factor of how happy people are too.
Just want to say that only economic growth doesn´t make you happy. In this way the article is kinda one sided for me.
Kids have to go to school for a ridiculous amount of time compared to most countries standards. Sometimes can be as high as 16 hours in a day. If I remember correctly a study was done and around 1 out of every three women over 18 in S. Korea has had at least one facial procedure. Everyone wants to look like someone else.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either.
Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates.
The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself.
You can't make a blanket statement like "Lots of countries have military service, that can't be it"
You have to apply it to the culture. I think if you can tell anyone, with a straight face, that taking a kid out of their life (in some of their prime years) and put them into mandatory military service which they cannot avoid, doesn't affect their happiness, then you're crazy. It does, there's no way it can't. You want to talk about slavery? That's slavery. Maybe they're pretty good about making kids feel like they're doing something for their country, but the fact of the matter is, you're not in control of your destiny at that point, and few people can be happy under those circumstances.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
You talk about un-happy and than you talk about suicide as the first argument for the "unhappy" theory, that just shows the low quality of the article that i will not bother to read any further... suicide, not to mention that it can simply be cause by a person realizing they have nothing to do in life/there existence is irrelevant and thus preferring to end it ( since its temporary anyway ) has nothing to do with the general level of happiness. Seeing how many boy/girl pop bands Korea has, however, makes me thing they don't have that high of an education level so that 29 out of 100k people reach the decision that there nihilist ways would point out to suicide thus they will do so, but it can still be caused by things such as an increased number of bullying or simply the fact that social misery isn't dealt with by joining a gang or buying a gun and killing people at random but rather by ending ones life... and those are the 2 reason that come to my mind right now. So now that i cover that, once again, i call this article bullshit and thus think its irrelevant to have a discussion around the points it makes.
On April 02 2012 23:22 Velr wrote: Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
Okay, let's increase people's safety welfare and you're guaranteeing people will stop sleeping while standing in the subway?
I have a irking suspicion it won't.
Yeah because that was totally his argument. Well done.
You can't follow logic can you?
South Koreans won't stop working hard and studying hard just because more safety nets are out there. It's a cultural perception that isn't created or solved by safety nets.
I've watched a trailor for a documentary that details the lives of S. Korean high school students and analyzes the stress behind what is expected from them. If anyone would like to see it (it is truly a brilliant piece for a trailor), I will link it below. Apologies if this has been linked already but I currently do not have the time to read all 8 pages.
certainly an interesting read, didnt really know that. I usually watch Dragon stream, he seems like one of the happiest guys around The only things about the article that I know anything about is the part where they said that Korea is a "world leader" in the automobile industry. Compared to countries that dont actually produce any cars, fine, but are Kias and Hyundais really world class compared to BMWs and Audis? I digress, good interesting article to read about a serious topic. Hope they figure out a solution
On April 02 2012 23:22 Velr wrote: Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
Okay, let's increase people's safety welfare and you're guaranteeing people will stop sleeping while standing in the subway?
I have a irking suspicion it won't.
Yeah because that was totally his argument. Well done.
You can't follow logic can you?
South Koreans won't stop working hard and studying hard just because more safety nets are out there. It's a cultural perception that isn't created or solved by safety nets.
You took an anecdote about sleeping in subways and turned it into a strawman. Nobody is claiming that a lack of welfare-benefits is the only important factor. I don't think you even understand what logic is.
So you honestly belief that a lack of safety net has no effect on pressure to succeed at all? You can't see that the risk of having no money at all when you fail puts any additional stress on people? And you can't see that this additional stress can contribute to an increase in suicidal thoughts at all? Because that would be ridiculous.
On April 03 2012 00:38 0neder wrote: I completely disagree that the welfare state breeds happiness. I think there are other underlying issues here.
This was my first thought...
I couldn't tell if this was supposed to be an actual news article or an editorial. But then I realized, this is the Guardian, what's the difference?
Why would not having money if you can't work make you even equally as happy as having some money? I would think being able to feed yourself or your family while unable to work would make someone happier than not being able to...
The upside of the welfare state is, that if you lose your job you are still able to buy that washing machine, and thus keep the economy going by spending money. With neo-liberal policies you will lose your job and your house while living on the street and keep saying to yourself that you didnt work hard enough and you should have tried harder even when the odds are stacked heavily against you. In the meantime all profits will be privatized and all losses will be socialized. In holland the cost of people who recieve benefits and who dont really need it is about 122mil. Now compare those costs to the 20bil. the same country had to spend to bail out the banks. Than it becomes clear that neo-liberal ideoligies are extremely destructive to society and only benefits the few.
On April 03 2012 01:00 derpinator wrote: The upside of the welfare state is, that if you lose your job you are still able to buy that washing machine, and thus keep the economy going by spending money. With neo-liberal policies you will lose your job and your house while living on the street and keep saying to yourself that you didnt work hard enough and you should have tried harder even when the odds are stacked heavily against you. In the meantime all profits will be privatized and all losses will be socialized. In holland the cost of people who recieve benefits and who dont really need it is about 122mil. Now compare those costs to the 20bil. the same country had to spend to bail out the banks. Than it becomes clear that neo-liberal ideoligies are extremely destructive to society and only benefits the few.
So the original capitalistic liberalism which changed to classical liberalism is now called neoliberalism instead, and normal liberalism is market socialism? No wait, that can't be right, because you said neoliberalism socializes losses...
I'm getting more and more confused by my own name...
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
On April 03 2012 01:00 derpinator wrote: The upside of the welfare state is, that if you lose your job you are still able to buy that washing machine, and thus keep the economy going by spending money. With neo-liberal policies you will lose your job and your house while living on the street and keep saying to yourself that you didnt work hard enough and you should have tried harder even when the odds are stacked heavily against you. In the meantime all profits will be privatized and all losses will be socialized. In holland the cost of people who recieve benefits and who dont really need it is about 122mil. Now compare those costs to the 20bil. the same country had to spend to bail out the banks. Than it becomes clear that neo-liberal ideoligies are extremely destructive to society and only benefits the few.
So the original capitalistic liberalism which changed to classical liberalism is now called neoliberalism instead, and normal liberalism is market socialism? No wait, that can't be right, because you said neoliberalism socializes losses...
I'm getting more and more confused by my own name...
Alright, we get it, liberal doesn't have the same definition anywhere... What about the post?
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
The reason it ran is because the author disagrees with the general economic direction that the British government has taken over the past two decades, culminating in the present austerity (which has completely failed to produce any growth for the last two years now despite all the promises to the contrary) and the looming privatisation-by-stealth of the NHS, against the wishes of the majority of the population. But it's not surprising that a British newspaper would publish news about South Korea that claims to shed some light on what's happening in Britain, so I don't really see that as a problem. It also fits his general thesis that neoliberalism is a disaster for the people who have to live under it. I pointed out in the original post that this was the angle he's coming from. P
ersonally I find his broad analysis of neoliberalism pretty convincing (and damning) but that isn't the reason I posted it here, the reason I posted it here is that it gives some interesting insight into what it's like being a young person in South Korea. It's already a tough enough decision to tell your parents that you're going to try to make a living off playing games competitively, and almost all the pro-gamers say their parents opposed the idea. This gives some idea of why they might be so opposed - with the majority of the population not having permanent contracts, with no social safety net worth the name, with a medical emergency potentially leading to bankruptcy, and with the Red Queen race that apparently makes up the education system it's a hell of a big risk to take, even bigger than you might originally assume.
The issue with austerity is sustainable debt levels. Governments can't tax people enough to pay for what the welfare state requires. Therefore they need to borrow money that they hope they will be able to pay back with future increased revenue caused by economic growth. The problem is that they measure both economic growth as well as budget deficits as a percentage of GDP, when in fact the government's budget is only about 30% of GDP. They mask the scale of the problem by saying that growth is 2% and deficit is 3%, so no problem guys, we're only a bit below the line, but they are having a revenue growth of 2%/year and borrowing as much as 10% of their budget per year. This is why the debt is piling up, and at some point investors will conclude that the government is incapable of paying back, so they will refuse to lend any more money to the government and the social welfare state collapses anyway.
The current system, fueled by debt requires more and more growth in order to survive. But the limit has been reached, and the economy cannot grow fast enough to pay the interest. Soon, it will struggle to grow at all, with the impending energy crisis. We have had peak oil a couple of years ago already, peak coal and peak gas soon to follow in the 2020s. We will need to learn to live in a declining economy, until we become fueled by 100% renewable energy. In the not so far away future we will have less economic output, less wealth, less division of labour. The transition to this world will be a turmoil...
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
As big of a deal as it is, people get used to things pretty well. I can't imagine that "omg North Korea might nuke us" is an everyday concern, especially for schoolchildren.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
Conclusion: Having more people lets you reach further on a bell curve?
The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans.
Hmm this could be docked as a useless post this late in the thread, but @OP "the neoliberal 'Washington Consensus' model of economic development" very simply sounds less like general capitalism and more specific to Ayn Rand and her ethical --> physical approach on laissez-faire capitalism. In such, I simply relate Ha-Joon Chang (upon further research) to Carl Marx. Albeit, this is a very well written article, but it struck me odd when he blatantly compared capitalist South Korea to socialist Finland (welfare country - not specifically socialist).
I also feel Chang leaves out far more pressing matters that would in a right mans mind directly relate to unhappiness. Simple things like South Korea has the longest average workweek in the world (yes he points out employment security, but not the droning of the people). Or that socially, South Korea is a suppressed nation via a culture mix of the old and the new, where they want to overly educate people, and almost literally make them live at school until they are 18. Third, the insane lack of freedom paired with, as Chang points out, the inability to move in the social ladder. But don't discount the lack of freedom. Capitalism and social freedoms go hand in hand, and when one of the other is discounted, it's proven to be detrimental.
On April 03 2012 01:51 koreasilver wrote: The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans.
This is very true.
I teach English in South Korea. Most of the children don't even THINK about North Korea. Like, ever.
Also, a lot of people don't understand just how much Korean kids go to school. Every day kids go to public school for the regular amount of hours. Then after that, they go to hagwons (or Academys in English). Each hagwon teaches in about three hour blocks, twice a week. So every student of mine spends six hours a week with me at English hagwon.
Now, that's not too bad, but if you ask most of my students how many hagwons they go to, most of them will say AT LEAST FOUR. That's an extra 24 hours of schooling ON TOP OF the mandatory public schooling they go through. And that only takes into account how much time they spend in class, let alone how much time they spend doing homework.
Once kids reach Highschool things change. The highschoolers in my city go to school from early in the morning until 10 PM at night. Now, granted, a lot of the extra time there is because they have to attend a mandatory period of study hall, but still... that's your ENTIRE day spent at school. And this is only HIGHSCHOOL.
In the students senior year of highschool they have to take a standardized test which pretty much determines the rest of their life. It's sort of like your SAT or ACT or what have you, except it takes (I think) about ten hours, instead of three or four. It has been rightly said that this day is the most important day in the lives of Koreans. If you do poorly, you either don't get to attend college (or at least a good one), or you have to wait another year to try to improve your score. If you don't get into a good school, then you can't get a good career, if you can't get a good career, then your capacity for social advancement is greatly diminished.
So yeah, I can kinda see why Korea might have a depression and suicide problem.
On April 03 2012 01:55 Game wrote: Hmm this could be docked as a useless post this late in the thread, but @OP "the neoliberal 'Washington Consensus' model of economic development" very simply sounds less like general capitalism and more specific to Ayn Rand and her ethical --> physical approach on laissez-faire capitalism. In such, I simply relate Ha-Joon Chang (upon further research) to Carl Marx. Albeit, this is a very well written article, but it struck me odd when he blatantly compared capitalist South Korea to socialist Finland (welfare country - not specifically socialist).
I also feel Chang leaves out far more pressing matters that would in a right mans mind directly relate to unhappiness. Simple things like South Korea has the longest average workweek in the world (yes he points out employment security, but not the droning of the people). Or that socially, South Korea is a suppressed nation via a culture mix of the old and the new, where they want to overly educate people, and almost literally make them live at school until they are 18. Third, the insane lack of freedom paired with, as Chang points out, the inability to move in the social ladder. But don't discount the lack of freedom. Capitalism and social freedoms go hand in hand, and when one of the other is discounted, it's proven to be detrimental.
When Chang talks about the Washington Consensus he refers to what he calls 'The Unholy Trinity', which is the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO, and the way they force countries to develop. All three institutions are dominated by Western nations, all highly competitive in their fields, and they force less developed nations to accept standards of neo-liberalism (or market capitalism) that they aren't willing to impose on themselves.
What he describes is the hypocrisy he calls 'Keynsianism for the rich, neo-liberalism for the poor'. The Washington Consensus forces non-competitive countries that are in economic downturn to limit their deficits and open up their markets even more. The response in the 'rich west' however is to bail-out everything in sight (just look at our latest crisis) and start raising trade barriers, because we aren't bound to the three institutions named above for financial aid. This is what Chang says happened to Korea in the 1997 financial crisis, and (more or less) is what he sees as the reason for the endless stagnation in Japan (altho they self-imposed the norms of the Washington Consensus).
Chang isn't a marxist at all, or anti-market for that matter, he just sees limits on under what circumstances markets yield optimal outcomes, defined broader then optimal worldwide allocation. Additionally, I think its undeniable that the power configuration in the Washington consensus is stacked in favor of the rich west, and that we do use it to force countries to respond to crises differently then we would have ourselves. Or, more generally, it forces polices on countries that we wouldn't have chosen ourselves, as history pretty much shows. Countries don't become competitive on the global scale through markets, you become competitive at home first by protectionism, and then enter the global market to increase efficiency and competitiveness while slowly stripping away protection. The only examples of countries that became wealthy by free trade are the Netherlands, Venice and arguably current day Chile.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
You are not very bright, are you? To even mention the math olympiad....
It's cultural. We all have heard about how insanely high expectations the Japanese and Korean parents have. When they realize that money isn't everything, I think things will change.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
Conclusion: Having more people lets you reach further on a bell curve?
Unfortunately, this isn't how statistics work. Finland has large enough sample to make a comparison and it is not very favorable.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
You are not very bright, are you? To even mention the math olympiad....
Just spend some time looking at this table and comparing country sizes and scores. Every country usually sends a 6-man/woman team. Now find all the small to average sized countries and compare their results to Finland's. I can't believe I have to do this for you.
Just stop this BULLSHIT with amazing finnish education system. It is good for general education NO DOUBT. But educated and dedicated parents play even a bigger role in this. For producing top talent that can do cutting edge research and outperform peers from other countries that system is TRASH. Dont compare it to SK, please dont. It just doesnt work like that, only in imaginary world.
GODDAMN Armenia with 3 mil population has you beat. I just can't get over this LOL! Still steaming.
Free markets are better, but of course, World Bank, IMF and WTO don't promote free markets, they promote corporate takeover over the governments. People have been made to think free market means something it does not. Big Time Capitalists are funny people, because on one hand they want the government out of their business, but on the other they want to use the means of coercion in their struggle against the competition.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
It's not just higher, it's the highest of all countries in which suicides are recorded. In case you want to read this, trust me that it will be very informative and competent, but nontheless: + Show Spoiler +
A few facts about suicide Suicidality comes with depression. Depression can be caused by a lot of events, but in most cases there's pressure from outside involved, contrary to cases where you lose a close person. Healthy individuals who aren't of old age usually cope with it (the loss) within a few years. Attribution pattern for the worst case becomes: success-external, unstable causes.Failure-internal, stable causes. etc. etc. (cba to cite down stuff widely available, let's get down to innovative speculation) All this stuff has been researched on a narrow individual base.
A few differences between Western and Asian culture:
individualist - collectivist macho - kawaii (thinking about this made me lol, curse MC for falling out of the pattern) favors extraversion - favors introversion many popular subcultures - few popular subcultures emphasizes honest strategies - encourages smart, subtle strategies (especially the Chinese culture) behavior is explained as a product of personality - (...) product of environment
In case you found these facts interesting for an understanding, now i'll get to the point fast:
Lithuania: When you have a political (neo-liberalism vs. post-communism) and ethnical (natives vs. immigrated Russians) discrepancy, combined with a bad healthcare system, a shit climate and no way to change anything, suicide rates might increase. Mentioning of suicides in the news usually causes more suicides (Werther-effect) That's why it isn't allowed to mention suicides in the news in my country, and that might also be the reason why the suicide rate powers itself after reaching a "critical mass", cause it becomes so visible to the inhabitants, keeping the Lithuanian rate high.
South Korea: The general high competitive pressure in asian countries, and being forced into an ideal stereotype chosen by popular culture give you a strong feeling of being worthless if you don't fit into it. South Korea has a ridiculous amount of plastic surgery performed, one of the -if not the- highest rate performed worldwide.
Too tired to go on, but for the economic discussion i have to add this:
I think unreglemented neoliberalism (which only exicts at the highest financial spheres, e.g. investment banks) is screwing with the world, and so many from the US despising of socialism in a dogmatic way don't know that a lot of people in your country (millions) live from food stamps. The biggest US banks being bailed out with giant amounts of money effectively makes them to a part of your nation. Roughly 70 % of the investments within your country are for consumption. You live in a semi-socialist country painted liberal for the masses.
I haven't read all the thread, but let me respond here by saying some people give more credit to North Korea threat than necessary. To my understanding nobody really gives a shit. Actually, the worst influence their presence have on our well-being might as well be the mandatory military service...
On April 03 2012 01:51 koreasilver wrote: The only people that think the threat of North Korea is a constant fear in the South Korean psyche in every day life, and that this supposed fear has to be taken into account when speaking of the societal issues in South Korea, are non-Koreans.
This is very true.
I teach English in South Korea. Most of the children don't even THINK about North Korea. Like, ever.
Also, a lot of people don't understand just how much Korean kids go to school. Every day kids go to public school for the regular amount of hours. Then after that, they go to hagwons (or Academys in English). Each hagwon teaches in about three hour blocks, twice a week. So every student of mine spends six hours a week with me at English hagwon.
Now, that's not too bad, but if you ask most of my students how many hagwons they go to, most of them will say AT LEAST FOUR. That's an extra 24 hours of schooling ON TOP OF the mandatory public schooling they go through. And that only takes into account how much time they spend in class, let alone how much time they spend doing homework.
Once kids reach Highschool things change. The highschoolers in my city go to school from early in the morning until 10 PM at night. Now, granted, a lot of the extra time there is because they have to attend a mandatory period of study hall, but still... that's your ENTIRE day spent at school. And this is only HIGHSCHOOL.
In the students senior year of highschool they have to take a standardized test which pretty much determines the rest of their life. It's sort of like your SAT or ACT or what have you, except it takes (I think) about ten hours, instead of three or four. It has been rightly said that this day is the most important day in the lives of Koreans. If you do poorly, you either don't get to attend college (or at least a good one), or you have to wait another year to try to improve your score. If you don't get into a good school, then you can't get a good career, if you can't get a good career, then your capacity for social advancement is greatly diminished.
So yeah, I can kinda see why Korea might have a depression and suicide problem.
Yeah, they set their kids' behavioral patterns early on to tolerate and endure 12-14 hour study days, which prepares them for 12-14 hour work days when they grow up, which is standard for companies there. Same reason their pro-gamers practice that long, though I reckon pro-gaming is seen as a form of escape from said work environment. I mean, 12-14 hours of playing games, that's preferrable to 12-14 hours of doing a job you don't like.
This kind of schedule comes at a cost. You can't teach free thinking, and giving your kids no free time makes them both unhappier and less able to create new things.
hell yeah. The Guardian cares about suicide rates. Damn left wing newspapers, they would write about anything these days...
and yet this has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic so why even bother posting?
maybe because some people here discard an article about a very serious issue (suicide rate in SK amongst others) using very short sighted arguments like Guardian=left wing. Whatever people think of the author, the newspaper, how economy should be run, etc, there is obviously something wrong with a country when suicide rate is that high.
On April 03 2012 02:22 50bani wrote: Free markets are better, but of course, World Bank, IMF and WTO don't promote free markets, they promote corporate takeover over the governments. People have been made to think free market means something it does not. Big Time Capitalists are funny people, because on one hand they want the government out of their business, but on the other they want to use the means of coercion in their struggle against the competition.
You're lumping people together who don't belong together. "Big time capitalists" do not want to use the hand of the government to promote their products.
Crooks do.
Big time capitalists do want the government's hand out of their products because the hand is typically being directed by the crooks
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either.
Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates.
The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself.
You can't make a blanket statement like "Lots of countries have military service, that can't be it"
You have to apply it to the culture. I think if you can tell anyone, with a straight face, that taking a kid out of their life (in some of their prime years) and put them into mandatory military service which they cannot avoid, doesn't affect their happiness, then you're crazy. It does, there's no way it can't. You want to talk about slavery? That's slavery. Maybe they're pretty good about making kids feel like they're doing something for their country, but the fact of the matter is, you're not in control of your destiny at that point, and few people can be happy under those circumstances.
Most people here greatly dislike service but there's a cultural 'deal with it' sort of attitude that makes people accept it as normal. You do it, you get out, you move on with your life.
It probably impacts happiness rates during those two years but I'm not sure what sort of lasting effects it has.
Moreover, increased job insecurity has driven the best Korean students into "secure" professions, like medicine and law, leaving science and engineering deprived of top talents. If this trend continues, the country's ability to innovate will be damaged.
Man, and I always considered engineering a "secure" profession. If a carear like that isn't considered secure, I can only imagine how hard it would be to convince your parents to let you be a "progamer" where the game you play goes old in ten years.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
Ahh, so this was a study limited to only 32 OECD countries. Still, it's not very surprising. Making the move from manufacturing to tech industries takes its toll on the less educated, especially in a culture so obsessed with working your ass off all the time. Find yourself without a job and without qualifications in the new, hyper-competitive job market and with no welfare or savings to fall back on during your unemployment and your happiness will sink to suicide bomber levels. I guess it's hard for those who set policies and own companies to fully relate to the troubles of the working class. It's all about short-term profits in this new global economy, or era of entitlement, where every investor expects some kind of instant gratification like at the casino.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Croatia (population ~4.5mil), Belarus (~9.5mil), Bulgaria (7.5 mil), these are only off the top of that list that absolutely CRUSH Finland in terms of results with twice as little participations. IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE. What's close is Armenia (population 3 mil)
Thank you.
They might be kings of general education and common sense. They spend less time studying more time rationalizing. But this will never result in being exceptional. That's when you have to put the time and effort in. I'm sorry but there is no magical way around that.
According to a recent World Values Survey, Koreans are the second unhappiest people (after Hungary)...
Meh, why am I not suprised.
On a sidenote, could a Hungarian elaborate on this? I spent a week in Budapest and the city seemed alright, the country isn't a whole lotta different from other Eastern European countries, and you have some of the hottest women I've ever seen. Apart from your government trying to push you back to the stone age, why are Hungarians so unhappy?
Croatia (population ~4.5mil), Belarus (~9.5mil), Bulgaria (7.5 mil), these are only off the top of that list that absolutely CRUSH Finland in terms of results with twice as little participations. IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE. What's close is Armenia (population 3 mil)
Thank you.
They might be kings of general education and common sense. They spend less time studying more time rationalizing. But this will never result in being exceptional. That's when you have to put the time and effort in. I'm sorry but there is no magical way around that.
i always found the finland hype bs, where does it come from?
Croatia (population ~4.5mil), Belarus (~9.5mil), Bulgaria (7.5 mil), these are only off the top of that list that absolutely CRUSH Finland in terms of results with twice as little participations. IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE. What's close is Armenia (population 3 mil)
Thank you.
They might be kings of general education and common sense. They spend less time studying more time rationalizing. But this will never result in being exceptional. That's when you have to put the time and effort in. I'm sorry but there is no magical way around that.
Math Olympiad is not a good indicator for education quality, at all. It is not even a good indicator for a country's ability to produce exceptional individuals. It isn't a good indicator for anything but the importance of pointless academic contests. I is truly beyond me why you think that it is.
As a sidenote: Why are you such a massive condescending prick?
Croatia (population ~4.5mil), Belarus (~9.5mil), Bulgaria (7.5 mil), these are only off the top of that list that absolutely CRUSH Finland in terms of results with twice as little participations. IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE. What's close is Armenia (population 3 mil)
Thank you.
They might be kings of general education and common sense. They spend less time studying more time rationalizing. But this will never result in being exceptional. That's when you have to put the time and effort in. I'm sorry but there is no magical way around that.
i always found the finland hype bs, where does it come from?
Finland scores extremely high in comparative studies of educational systems. The studies that are actually scientific and peer-reviewed, unlike the math olympiad results, which are indicative of absolutely nothing at all.
You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
According to a recent World Values Survey, Koreans are the second unhappiest people (after Hungary)...
Meh, why am I not suprised.
On a sidenote, could a Hungarian elaborate on this? I spent a week in Budapest and the city seemed alright, the country isn't a whole lotta different from other Eastern European countries, and you have some of the hottest women I've ever seen. Apart from your government trying to push you back to the stone age, why are Hungarians so unhappy?
It's not really unhappy, but rather tired and disappointed, since nothing really changes. People are living their lives but things aren't getting better, if not worse. News is all about rising prices, dumb politicians and traffic accidents (there have been a suprisingly high amount of suicides in the last few months) with a little bit a "xy noname celebrity bought a new dog"-type news. But everyone's hoping things will get better. Hungarians have never been known for giving up that easily
Offtopic-ish: Am I looking the numbers wrong, or is Hungary top-notch at this Math Olympiad thing?
On April 03 2012 04:09 ecstatica wrote: You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
I think judging education systems on the basis of how the absolute top students perform is bad. China seems to be crushing this and i doubt it's their education system but rather the huge population and the higher % of geniuses. There are a few countries that you might not expect to perform as well as they do but i'd be looking at other factos aswell. Amazing private schools and personal teachers, sheer luck in the sense that they've had a few math geeks born in their country, they are actually trying to do well in this competition and try to train their students and maybe they're at constant search of talented students etc.
On April 03 2012 04:09 ecstatica wrote: You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
No, what I call a study is a well-thought out theoretical framework leading to a variety of clear, theoretically inspired, criteria, leading to indicators, leading to an overall comparison. The study then gets peer-reviewed, and if it proves to be good and useful it can be used as evidence. What you call evidence is taking a random statistic of a small and in some convaluted way extend it to the entire population. There's a reason that's generally frowned upon in the scientific community.
I can do the exact same you're doing in under a minute. Following math olympiad results, North Korea has a better educational system then belgium, finland, luxembourg, the netherlands, new zealand, sweden, switzerland. Countries named also get beaten by thailand and vietnam. You can't compare educational systems based on a single, randomly chosen, indicator. I don't think you understand the scientific method, or the concept of scientific peer-review, and the NBA draft comparison makes absolutely no sense.
On April 03 2012 04:09 ecstatica wrote: You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
No, what I call a study is a well-thought out theoretical framework leading to a variety of clear, theoretically inspired, criteria, leading to indicators, leading to an overall comparison. The study then gets peer-reviewed, and if it proves to be good and useful it can be used as evidence. What you call evidence is taking a random statistic of a small and in some convaluted way extent it to the entire population. There's a reason that's generally frowned upon in the scientific community.
I can do the exact same you're doing in under a minute. Following math olympiad results, North Korea has a better educational system then belgium, finland, luxembourg, the netherlands, new zealand, sweden, switzerland. Countries named also get beaten by thailand and vietnam. You can't compare educational systems based on a single, randomly chosen, indicator. I don't think you understand the scientific method, or the concept of scientific peer-review, and the NBA draft comparison makes absolutely no sense.
Not to mention that the results are going to be greatly distorted by the popularity of academic competitions in general. Which I know are not popular at all in the Netherlands (I've never heard of a Dutch 'spelling-bee') while they are in for example the US.
If we want to compare the number of exceptionally gifted individuals produced, we could also choose number of nobel laureates, or published articles in scientific journals. Which obviously are also terrible indicators of educational quality on their own and will greatly favor the west.
On April 03 2012 04:09 ecstatica wrote: You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
No, what I call a study is a well-thought out theoretical framework leading to a variety of clear, theoretically inspired, criteria, leading to indicators, leading to an overall comparison. The study then gets peer-reviewed, and if it proves to be good and useful it can be used as evidence. What you call evidence is taking a random statistic of a small and in some convaluted way extend it to the entire population. There's a reason that's generally frowned upon in the scientific community.
I can do the exact same you're doing in under a minute. Following math olympiad results, North Korea has a better educational system then belgium, finland, luxembourg, the netherlands, new zealand, sweden, switzerland. Countries named also get beaten by thailand and vietnam. You can't compare educational systems based on a single, randomly chosen, indicator. I don't think you understand the scientific method, or the concept of scientific peer-review, and the NBA draft comparison makes absolutely no sense.
No theoretical framework compares to real results and real numbers. Period. That's why you didn't get the NBA draft example.
What you've noticed is not necessarily indicative of NK being superior to listed countries in terms of "education" (even though I believe this could very much be the case), it simply proves that their math program is superior - if they do, in fact, post better results on yearly basis. I'm not sure why that shocks you? We have a lot of students from Vietnam in US and they do great. Do you somehow suggest that Belgian students are better? I'm sorry but I don't think so.
On April 03 2012 04:09 ecstatica wrote: You know what math olympiad results actually show? A capability of certain education systems to produce top level talent in math field over the course of participation period. Which is over 30 years in some cases. Now this is what I call evidence. What you call evidence is a study of a mean average of a certain age group across all countries.
Basically if someone scores at the mean he is absolutely useless, he defines "average". That study doesn't show if the system can produce exceptional students or if it only takes care of severely undereducated ones, while top prospects are bottlenecked. It's basically in the same field of usefulness as trying to define top writing potential basing it on country's literacy rate.
Think of NBA draft. It's peer-reviewed to death. Then think of actual NBA. That's where peer-reviewed meets reality. Math olympiad is the NBA of mathematics. You either produce or you're trash. If you don't understand this I don't know how to explain.
Please don't make any kind of scientific research ever if you are really this bad at taking confounders into account... There are a ton of variables you didn't account for, one of the more important being that in most western european countries people don't care about the olympiads/academic contests and they aren't promoted. For example, I had to explain my own teachers what Georg Mohr and the Biology Olympiad was back in the Gymnasium before I could get to participate.
If you don't understand that who does well in a competition is in the first placed influenced by who enters it, I don't even know how to explain why your example is so absolutely trash....
If you want to compare education somewhat objectively, look at the PISA-test, which is also shitty measure, yet still a better measure of educational level than "# of winners of XXXX academical contest".
EDIT: Seeing how glad you are for sports metaphores, ask yourself why the US isn't posting any results worth mentioning in Badminton but a small country like Denmark is tearing it up with several WC and is the only country outside of Asia which is worth mentioning? Or why China (and the US until recently) suck at soccer?
I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To your sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
The same thing that the bad economy and sense of impending economic doom does to the suicide rate: it creates anxiety. Perceiving a guillotine over your head is pretty stressful, I heard. Even more so if you (not saying South Koreans in general do this, but a lot of humans in general do tend to do this) don't agree with your government's method of handling the situation.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
Fear? Slavery? What about the meritocratic benefits of a capitalistic system? The primary draw (and one of the main reasons of success) is that you can go to a capitalistic nation and succeed. You can start a business, get a dream job, climb the corporate ladder, start a family or whatever else floats your boat. People come to capitalistic nations and stay there because of the opportunity for success, not the opportunity for failure. Also, there are real slaves in the world right now that make South Korea look like heaven on Earth. Please don't downgrade their level of suffering by insinuating capitalistic nations are "slave nations".
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
Talking about useless rherotic in that post is actually pretty funny, as is the request to offer something you can swallow (in more than one way). The demand that something has to be scientifically sound and peer-reviewed is hardly ridiculous, as you try to make it out to be.
I don't even dispute that Asian nations educate the priviliged better in Maths than Finland. But you offer the motherfucking Math Olympiad as your only evidence, asking us to 'trust you', talk about hard to swallow. You could have just linked an article about how the Finnish system emphasizes special education and 'equality' in education, perhaps this one. It also helps not to be too much of a dick about it, it really does, trust me.
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that?
I realize I probably do sound like a dick here which is weird since I have no stake in this. Im neither finnish nor korean. I guess what ticked me off was the notion that you can effectively study less and be just as good. Now I'm not sure what to cite here, lets just call it a day. I love equality btw.
Why the South Korean children are unhappy, has to do with the ridiculous workload that's forced upon them since elementary-middle school ages all the way up to the college entrance exam. I highly disagree with it and I'm so glad I got out of there before getting the full brunt of it.
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To your sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
I got the highest average in Denmark the year I graduated (11,5), with multiple 13 (the grade isn't represented in the american system, 11 = A+, 13 meant that you know the stuff at a university level - Denmark has since then moved away from the system). I got a grant which is given to "the extraordinary and greatly academically gifted student". I scored 17, 18 and 16 points in the Georg Mohr the 3 years I participated and placed top 10 in the biology olympiad here in Denmark. Yeah, it was probably my poor academical skills that cut me short... Or it could just be because my teachers didn't know that such a thing existed because NO ONE CARES ABOUT ACADEMICAL TOURNAMENTS IN DENMARK.
The arguments against using the math olympiad as a measure for which countries has the best math-education aren't just rhetorical as you try to downplay it as. It should be obvious that to win something you first have to participate and if it isn't very popular to participate in contests, well then no one is going to bother doing it (like with Badminton in the states). Also, I offered you the PISA-studies (which despite being terrible are still a miles better than using the math olympiad)....
Also I loved the part where you moved from the well-known country "Europe" to the US, because countries don't differ at all...
EDIT: I see that you now called it a day - so let's do that. Have a nice day (despite my previous useage of sarcasm, please believe me - this is 100% sincere).
It's part of the "Asian" culture, so to speak. It exists in China, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. You're taught to always bow your head to your superiors, both metaphorically and literally.
In many western cultures, you're basically told that you become anything you want if you try hard enough. Even if you don't go to university, you can still make it big through sheer effort and desire.
In most 1st World Asian nations, there's still an attitude of "knowing your place", so to speak. You work extremely long hour days, work in a position that matches your education, and there are ever prevalent glass ceilings. School is much the same, and also the reason why Asian schools are considered so much better than Western ones - because they very nearly define your entire future, with no leeway.
I'm hoping I'm getting this all across right...essentially, in many Asian cultures, things like school and work are basically seen as your life, with everything else being incidental around those. In Western culture, those are just the things that allow you to have your life.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
Because by just having NK as a neighbour every male has to stop his life for two years during his "prime years" and do the military service. Not only does the society push them too hard when it comes to grades so they can get into the best school and land the best job but when they are done with school they get sent into the military for two years. I wouldn't be to happy about that and all the pressure either.
Tons of countries has obligatory military service, it doesn't lead to massive unhappyness and hightened suicide rates.
The reason for suicide rates being high in Korea and Japan is simply cultural. In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face. No matter how hard they are trying to change peoples perception of this, it will take a lot of time. Add in the fact that you're forced to work 90% of your time awake, and then you have to go out and drink with your boss several times a week, no pay for working overtime... yeah, you'll quickly find good reasons to kill yourself.
In Western culture, you're considered a coward and selfish when you kill yourself, while in Japan and Korea, it's honorable to save face
Gross generalization. Suicide isn't received well in just about any culture.
This article only delves into the economic aspects of the problem at hand, when in actuality there is a lot more to the issue aside from the economic stance of S.Korea. Another part of the problem is that suicide rate among the younger generation are high due to expectations that are placed upon them.
On top of that, suicide rates and happiness levels are not really correlated, as sociological studies have shown. It has to do with more matters such as how people react to a change in circumstances, so i think the title is a bit misleading in that sense.
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that?
Hahaha I don't where this is going anymore :D But using the maths olympiad scores as a comparison between education systems is pretty hilarious.
ecstatica, unless you can argue that the entire purpose of an education system is to take the top 0.1% of a population to a state where they are very good at solving math contest questions, I don't see what point you are trying to make..
edit: ok just saw your last post. You seem to try to say that "same education with less" is not possible. What people have been trying to say here is rather: "spending MORE time studying is not necessarily better for people". Sometimes it makes you smarter. Sometimes it makes you better at math contests. Sometimes it makes you unhappy. So,"studying more" is not necessarily a good thing.
Talking about happyness in south korea seems kinda interesting, but I was sad as soon as I saw this was about economics. Never talk about economy in TL, too many free market bullshit everywhere.
Also I need to understand where he makes the link between suicide rate / happyness / economical situation. I still think it's a pretty poor way of seeing things, the high suicide rate of SK cannot be explained by the economical situation alone, I think everybody knows that. Something is missing imo.
Ghostcom, one last Q: did you study for the Olympiad? Kind of, you know, "busted ass" so to speak? Maybe more than what school program required? I know you did. And that's the essence of this argument.
Grats for repping Denmark that year. Hopefully not every participant had to explain their teachers wtf an Olympiad is (that would be weird). Im not even going to discount your evidence as anecdotal like you did with mine! After all one day we might play badminton together.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
The study environment is at least as important as the hours put in. It sounds like these Korean kids are stimulated in a way that might not be very effective.
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To tour sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
You try to use math olympics to scientifically state that Finland sucks at math, then you make the claim that no one ever refuses to participate in it. How can you in any way possibly know that?
Hahaha I don't where this is going anymore :D But using the maths olympiad scores as a comparison between education systems is pretty hilarious.
ecstatica, unless you can argue that the entire purpose of an education system is to take the top 0.1% of a population to a state where they are very good at solving math contest questions, I don't see what point you are trying to make..
edit: ok just saw your last post. You seem to try to say that "same education with less" is not possible. What people have been trying to say here is rather: "spending MORE time studying is not necessarily better for people". Sometimes it makes you smarter. Sometimes it makes you better at math contests. Sometimes it makes you unhappy. So,"studying more" is not necessarily a good thing.
Im pretty sure its purpose is to have more people score 51/100 instead of 50/100 compared to other countries.
You really think future math major score average on math tests?
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
I like the accusations of not being very scientific while the only arguments against it is some useless rhetoric. I've even offered a probable theory to explain why Finland scored high on average! What did you offer? "This is not a proper framework, our framework has a lot of peer reviews and super scientific and.. and... we probably dont even care for that stuff!"
What the f? I am willing to believe you, really. Just offer something that I can swallow.
To your sports metaphor - obviously badminton is not very popular. Therefore little ppl that play it cant learn from the best or receive great coaching. OK lets break it down - math is something that everyone studies and teachers do matter as much as the program. How did this help your argument? Dont tell me youre assuming ppl initially bust ass studying math to compete at the olympiad which has no prizepool afaik... L O L
Bolded part. Personal anecdotes: 7th to 9th grade I had the highest math scores in the schools over 20 years history(400-500 students sized school) and no one said one word about math competitions. Unfortunately(for this discussion) I didn't specialize in advanced math for more anecdotal evidence, but if these competitions all good students supposedly participate in start later I'm surprised I haven't even heard of their existence.
Interesting article,it does pinpoint the economic situation (or rather the uncertainty about peoples personal economic situation, aka will i have a job next year) as cause for the unhappyness though like some posters above i am not sure that is 100% sustifiable and there seems to be more at hand. Objectivly the economic situation of south korea has improved considerably since say 1990, though they might be in a slump atm like manny other parts of the world. South korea is even predicted to be the 2nd wealthiest country per captiva in 2050 right after the usa, (91k$ for usa, 89k$ for south korea estimated ) Got this from wiki btw lol but the article is based on research from goldman sachs. It cant be the economy alone and the social structure must play some role in this, the workload they face since a young age at school looks enormous and might play a major role in this feeling of beeing unhappy.
What's good for the world as a whole is rising income levels in all countries and a diminishing wealth gap between nations. Free trade with countries that are unable to compete leads to a situation where the underdeveloped country will never be able to escape its position; its essentially 21st century colonialism. Countries are right for using protectionism for their non-competitive sectors, because if they don't they'll never develop that sector. US manufacturing, US Steel, Korean Steel, Japanese/Korean cars, none of it would have been possible without fierce protectionism and in the end the world as a whole benefits from the trade and competition that occurs once countries have actual competitive sectors.
Smart well-led countries (like China, India, Brazil) actually reckognize this and act on it. Free trade in low-tech manufacturing, protectionism for the sectors they want to be a part of in the future (biotech, aviation). Deregulation and free markets can have extremely destructive effects that are not in the interest of anyone, which is why policymakers need to carefully consider all options and not simply choose deregulation as a default option.
Free trade gives poor countries a chance to escape their fate. If an industry in the US can't compete with outside competitors who can do it cheaper you should let them. These new competitors not from the US will develop their own industry and will have the same technological advancements and a cheaper alternative for the consumers. Just take the agriculture in Europe it's heavily subsidized and has massive trade barriers. European farmers can sell their products incredibly cheap because they get subsidies from Europe to make up for the loss they make. Because of this farmers in for example Africa have to lower their prices to the same level and thus making them poorer. Now let's say you stop the subsidies and the trade barriers for it and reschool the farmers what you get now is the farmers in Africa being able to sustain themself and having higher wages which they can spend and European tax money getting reinvested in other important projects like infrastructure or whatever.
And that 'clever' government in China Just followed the Japanese model and it's colapsing just like it did in Japan.
Math olympics really? all most all Finnish student wont even bother participating these kind of "competition" things. Why take more workload for your studies by participating some random exams?
I mean first 9 years of school you taught basic things which you need to survive modern society. So called "genius" guys are same class with us and I bet they don't really make too much effort with their studies same with me. You make homework if you remember to do those, study for exam day before it for few hours and thats it. Thats average Joe the Student.
After that you have two options. 3 years of study to get work profession (plumbers, hair stylist/barber, economic (low grade), electrician, chef, etc) or 3 more years to determine your academic level. Now here most "genius" students start to have some effort to maintain decent grades and have good final exam grades. After that if you get good grades you can choose where to study without having national entry exams. I guess thats the hardest part of your live to get in for another school after that its gets easier again (studying is pretty easy compared to exam).
But what is this really have to do with SK unhappy thing?
It is impossible for me to do ay fact checking on the article itself (no time for it), but it is an interesting debate.
I believe that the government needs to be involved, and that free markets cannot run a country. There are no real capitalistic countries left anyway, so that should lend some weight to my claim.
I just find capitalism so fundamentally unjust as well.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Lol to me both are bad and this is such a horrible argument. On one side you have SK who pushes too hard(over studying and working to the point of mental exhaustion and breakdown) and Finland...which I don't know much about but from these posts and more recent posts on this whole argument, are proud of being tied with SK while being lazy(not studying/homework). In my eyes both are extremely bad. No matter what the country score, you should always excell for your very best while knowing your limits.
ecstatica's real point throughout this redicously math debate was that there is no way that a large group of people who don't study and who are, to put it bluntly, lazy will do as well as people who study and actually work. His example was a poorish one but it's true.
Another thing is not all schools are the same. Possibly SK schools have harder programs than Finland. Has anyone been to both a finnish school and a Korean school(same grade too since different grades tend to be easier/tougher).
Anyways, This debate on which system was better or worse didn't have much to do on the topic. Only thing from this that was on point with the topic is that Koreans normally push their limits in terms of work capabilities too hard. Which in turn results in lack of results because of mental/physical fatigue. Which ususally makes someone want to work harder. What follows that is depression since you don't receive the results that you expected and were expected from you from your family/peers. Even if you end up getting the results you wanted, fatigue does end up taking its toll on a person.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Im sorry but you said it yourself - youre average. In order to not be average you need to study. I think its a simple concept.
Good, youre on the right track. Now think of the lack of really bad students thanks to educated society. What happens with the mean? Good, what else could that imply? Everyone is around average (little to no deviation). Now look up math olympiad results. Okay good so SK and China has a ton of superachievers while Finland is barely on the map. Conclusion? Do it yourself ffs
I mean seriously... Most of the "good" students I know, they won't do shit to read for tests etc... Anyways, USA is not on the map in any of those...
Lol to me both are bad and this is such a horrible argument. On one side you have SK who pushes too hard(over studying and working to the point of mental exhaustion and breakdown) and Finland...which I don't know much about but from these posts and more recent posts on this whole argument, are proud of being tied with SK while being lazy(not studying/homework). In my eyes both are extremely bad. No matter what the country score, you should always excell for your very best while knowing your limits.
ecstatica's real point throughout this redicously math debate was that there is no way that a large group of people who don't study and who are, to put it bluntly, lazy will do as well as people who study and actually work. His example was a poorish one but it's true.
Another thing is not all schools are the same. Possibly SK schools have harder programs than Finland. Has anyone been to both a finnish school and a Korean school(same grade too since different grades tend to be easier/tougher).
Anyways, This debate on which system was better or worse didn't have much to do on the topic. Only thing from this that was on point with the topic is that Koreans normally push their limits in terms of work capabilities too hard. Which in turn results in lack of results because of mental/physical fatigue. Which ususally makes someone want to work harder. What follows that is depression since you don't receive the results that you expected and were expected from you from your family/peers. Even if you end up getting the results you wanted, fatigue does end up taking its toll on a person.
Okay now, personally I just could not care less about statistics and whatever in those tests, just typed something in because saw some "rant" about Finland and was bored, go on with the flamewars/whatever is happening here.
There are actually people out there that care about "math battles" or whatever you call that? I mean, i like never ever heard of anything like that aside from some (bad) american tv/cinema high school/children dramas with their ridiculous spelling battles...
A lot of you seem to mention culture as an explanation. Chang rejects cultural explanations because economic development shapes culture more than culture shapes economic development; countries become disciplined and hardworking because of economic development, not the other way around. He frequently mentions Malaysia as a country with a culture (muslim) that is generally considered anti-economic development, and he claims that economic development has made Malaysia a more tolerant islamic country.
Culture, in Changs view, is something that can be changed over a relatively short time-span, and government can actively help change culture, but only if the underlying economic conditions are in place. As another example, he claims that there used to be an expression in Korea 'Korean Time' (being 1-2 hours late to a meeting) which then rapidly fell out out of use over the course of 15 years during which Korea developed. Most current succesful countries have in the timespan of several decades been described as having both positive and negative economic effects, and that does seem to make any kind of cultural explanation rather weak. Germans were considered 'thieving' in the 1850's, and the japanese were described as generally 'lazy' in the 1910's, and after a decade or two, during which their countries 'took off', they were suddenly considered to be 'hardworking'.
On April 03 2012 05:32 ecstatica wrote: I'm sure you've taken everything into account citing Finland as top 3 country in terms of math education. The very fact that math olympiad is a government sponsored event and no one ever refuses to participate if he's good enough since it's a privilege - I don't even know wtf you mean by saying that people don't care. If you weren't asked to participate chances are you weren't good. Trust me, top math students do take part in math contests, I'm afraid you simply lack the information. I moved to the US from Europe and it was very much alike.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about...
it's a side effect of SK being one of the most efficient up and coming countries.. same with singapore, china, and japan I assume.. more power to them, they'll get control of most of the capital from the west soon enough
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Lol to me both are bad and this is such a horrible argument. On one side you have SK who pushes too hard(over studying and working to the point of mental exhaustion and breakdown) and Finland...which I don't know much about but from these posts and more recent posts on this whole argument, are proud of being tied with SK while being lazy(not studying/homework). In my eyes both are extremely bad. No matter what the country score, you should always excell for your very best while knowing your limits.
ecstatica's real point throughout this redicously math debate was that there is no way that a large group of people who don't study and who are, to put it bluntly, lazy will do as well as people who study and actually work. His example was a poorish one but it's true.
Another thing is not all schools are the same. Possibly SK schools have harder programs than Finland. Has anyone been to both a finnish school and a Korean school(same grade too since different grades tend to be easier/tougher).
Anyways, This debate on which system was better or worse didn't have much to do on the topic. Only thing from this that was on point with the topic is that Koreans normally push their limits in terms of work capabilities too hard. Which in turn results in lack of results because of mental/physical fatigue. Which ususally makes someone want to work harder. What follows that is depression since you don't receive the results that you expected and were expected from you from your family/peers. Even if you end up getting the results you wanted, fatigue does end up taking its toll on a person.
Well some forms of pressure probably generally make people unhappy and I suspect that's the main factor in the increasing unhappiness in developed countries.
Reason it always appears to be a controversial topic is probably because some feel it questions "getting more stuff" as the only important factor for happiness.
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
This isn't the reason at all.... this whole thing you wrote just made me dumber.
This is a very good thread and I've learned a lot of things about Korean culture and political science just by reading a few of the comments/posts. Indeed Korea seems to be the rally point of depression and discourages any time of window of opportunity to be free, to express yourself and to create. I feel extremely lucky to be living in a society like mine.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
Fear? Slavery? What about the meritocratic benefits of a capitalistic system? The primary draw (and one of the main reasons of success) is that you can go to a capitalistic nation and succeed. You can start a business, get a dream job, climb the corporate ladder, start a family or whatever else floats your boat. People come to capitalistic nations and stay there because of the opportunity for success, not the opportunity for failure. Also, there are real slaves in the world right now that make South Korea look like heaven on Earth. Please don't downgrade their level of suffering by insinuating capitalistic nations are "slave nations".
A lot of the problem, I think, is that the supposed meritocracy of Western capitalist democracies is being eroded by powerful special interests and entrenched wealth. A meritocracy is all well and good in theory, but in recent decades much of the meritocratic nature of capitalism has shown to be a sham. When large investors and corporate interests can tilt the playing field in their direction, forcing out competition and making rules and laws that benefit only the status quo, the whole cultural ideal of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps suddenly seems to become less attainable.
Its also part of the reason why young people are increasingly disaffected with the current political system. Society, parents, and the previous generation has told them to work hard, sacrifice, and they'll have the opportunity to succeed. Well, a whole lot of young people jumped through the hoops only to find themselves without job prospects, saddled with debt from college fees their parents didn't have to pay, and staring down the barrel of a national financial crisis that their parents generation created and are unwilling to fix.
Its no surprise that people are deeply unhappy with the current situation.
No qualms with the article, but the title of this topic is kind of misleading; the average South Korean probably isn't as unhappy as the average citizens of developing countries where a significant proportion of the population is dying from preventable disease and famine. Happiness is correlated with material wealth at least up to the point of having basic necessities met.
I honestly don't know much at all about Korean culture, but I do know that happiness isn't derived from government regulation. Perhaps we could dub this "trickle down happiness." One of the more biased articles I've read in weeks, finishes off with "so you better not cut welfare Europe!"
The U.K. is already experiencing radical socio-economical changes. Right now there are approximately 1.3 million 16 to 24 year olds not in education or work.
Put the clock 5-10 years ahead and I fear for these peoples careers.
On April 02 2012 23:25 TheDraken wrote: i was always under the impression that south korea just had an extremely competitive educational culture and that one's success was determined by what university they ended up going to. that in itself would be enough to make everyone unhappy. i'm not sure how much the "welfare" state factors into it.
if you ask me it's more of a cultural perception thing. the country needs to realize people are more than their test scores.
Well Finland's neck-and-neck with Korea in terms of education and they're the other extreme, students spend really little time in school and most of it is out of respect for the teaching profession, thus really good teachers = really good students.
Can SK adapt to the Finnish system?
How can you be so goddamn naive? You think students in Finland are at extreme lows for study hours while doing just as good as SK students? This even makes sense to you?
Finland DOES NOT do well because of students not spending enough time studying thanks to super teachers that make you get it with twice as little effort. Finland has more leeway for students vs SK but that doesnt mean they they dont bust their asses studying. Theres no chance you learn if you dont put the work in. The success of finnish education has to do with parenting for the most part, not just teaching. Educated and motivated parents make a world of difference since early childhood.
Finnish student here, I don't bust my ass off studying and never really bothered with homework until just recently and I'm pretty much your average finnish student in terms of grades.
It's the parenting and teaching also, the teaching methods and testing methods make a big difference.
Lol to me both are bad and this is such a horrible argument. On one side you have SK who pushes too hard(over studying and working to the point of mental exhaustion and breakdown) and Finland...which I don't know much about but from these posts and more recent posts on this whole argument, are proud of being tied with SK while being lazy(not studying/homework). In my eyes both are extremely bad. No matter what the country score, you should always excell for your very best while knowing your limits.
ecstatica's real point throughout this redicously math debate was that there is no way that a large group of people who don't study and who are, to put it bluntly, lazy will do as well as people who study and actually work. His example was a poorish one but it's true.
Another thing is not all schools are the same. Possibly SK schools have harder programs than Finland. Has anyone been to both a finnish school and a Korean school(same grade too since different grades tend to be easier/tougher).
Anyways, This debate on which system was better or worse didn't have much to do on the topic. Only thing from this that was on point with the topic is that Koreans normally push their limits in terms of work capabilities too hard. Which in turn results in lack of results because of mental/physical fatigue. Which ususally makes someone want to work harder. What follows that is depression since you don't receive the results that you expected and were expected from you from your family/peers. Even if you end up getting the results you wanted, fatigue does end up taking its toll on a person.
If anything the most interesting thing about it is it has had almost no big "reforms" for 10< years. It is state controlled and it is based on equality rather than segregating like the US system.
How can it be bad to put in little effort for high results? In many parts SK and US there is educational inflation. There is a much to large focus on school in these countries and there are a lot negative consequences of it.
On April 03 2012 05:45 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
Fear? Slavery? What about the meritocratic benefits of a capitalistic system? The primary draw (and one of the main reasons of success) is that you can go to a capitalistic nation and succeed. You can start a business, get a dream job, climb the corporate ladder, start a family or whatever else floats your boat. People come to capitalistic nations and stay there because of the opportunity for success, not the opportunity for failure. Also, there are real slaves in the world right now that make South Korea look like heaven on Earth. Please don't downgrade their level of suffering by insinuating capitalistic nations are "slave nations".
A lot of the problem, I think, is that the supposed meritocracy of Western capitalist democracies is being eroded by powerful special interests and entrenched wealth. A meritocracy is all well and good in theory, but in recent decades much of the meritocratic nature of capitalism has shown to be a sham. When large investors and corporate interests can tilt the playing field in their direction, forcing out competition and making rules and laws that benefit only the status quo, the whole cultural ideal of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps suddenly seems to become less attainable.
Its also part of the reason why young people are increasingly disaffected with the current political system. Society, parents, and the previous generation has told them to work hard, sacrifice, and they'll have the opportunity to succeed. Well, a whole lot of young people jumped through the hoops only to find themselves without job prospects, saddled with debt from college fees their parents didn't have to pay, and staring down the barrel of a national financial crisis that their parents generation created and are unwilling to fix.
Its no surprise that people are deeply unhappy with the current situation.
Yep, this is true. In countries mostly ran under a highly capitalistic system, wealth and power tends to go to the little minorities while the rest suffer the oppression. The possibilities for a real meritocracy are destroyed by this simple fact.
In my country, for example, 1% of the population earns more than 5 times the amount the following 19% earn, and more than 20 times as much as the people in the lower 20%. This means that those people get every benefit on everything, including education, health, jobs, pretty much anything you can think of.
That lower 20% can never get out of there unless they get extremely lucky, because the best teachers are always hired by private, expensive schools, the best infrastructure is in those schools, they have the best transportation facilities, the better medicine, and overall the better conditions in which to develop their full potential. In the end, no matter how much effort that family makes, it would be impossible for their children to rise in the social scale unless they get some sort of help from the government, which is right now extremely lacking, because they focus all their efforts on the "free market and the free competition", which is actually not free at all, just regulated and managed by those who get the biggest benefit out of it.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
On April 03 2012 08:51 mordk wrote: Yep, this is true. In countries mostly ran under a highly capitalistic system, wealth and power tends to go to the little minorities while the rest suffer the oppression. The possibilities for a real meritocracy are destroyed by this simple fact.
In my country, for example, 1% of the population earns more than 5 times the amount the following 19% earn, and more than 20 times as much as the people in the lower 20%. This means that those people get every benefit on everything, including education, health, jobs, pretty much anything you can think of.
That lower 20% can never get out of there unless they get extremely lucky, because the best teachers are always hired by private, expensive schools, the best infrastructure is in those schools, they have the best transportation facilities, the better medicine, and overall the better conditions in which to develop their full potential. In the end, no matter how much effort that family makes, it would be impossible for their children to rise in the social scale unless they get some sort of help from the government, which is right now extremely lacking, because they focus all their efforts on the "free market and the free competition", which is actually not free at all, just regulated and managed by those who get the biggest benefit out of it.
Really a terrible situation.
Do you honestly believe that today, political and economic power is MORE concentrated than it was 200 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago? I think the unequivocal answer is that today, at least in democratic and growing nations (OECD countries, etc.), there is more opportunity for people to transition out of poverty than ever before. To go along with that, people have more influence over the political process. Decades ago, we didn't know that the political and economic systems were being manipulated but they WERE! Corporations have been around for hundreds of years (going back to groups like the Dutch east India Company which wielded substantial political power) and have always influenced politics with their money. The great thing about today is that we have more tools to find out about this BS and more tools to deal with it.
I want to point out that, while in the US the income gap is rising, median income has also been rising. It has stagnated over the past 10 years or so. How exactly this corresponds to the welfare state, overall economic development, and other factors is unclear.
Also, it is MUCH better to be poor in the US today than ever before. Something like half of Americans will live below the poverty line at some point in their life. A much smaller number than that are below at any given time though. This suggests that people often transition above/below the line based on their decisions/circumstances and this in generally true. A poor person in the US has about a 33% chance of joining the middle-class in any given calendar year. If you have been poor for less than a year, that number is above 50%. Some of those people return to poverty. In general, if you have been poor for a short time, you will probably escape poverty. The longer you are poor, the less likely it is that you will overcome it. This sounds about right to me. Sometimes, bad stuff happens but resourceful and determined people usually overcome it.
As per the OP statement, I am skeptical that this problem in Korea can be linked so easily to austerity, but the article makes a good case. Clearly, it is something to think about. Is the causal story really that convincing though? In economics, it rarely is, regardless of your ideology.
Also, I wonder if there is a market remedy for this type of problem (can you tell yet that I'm a biased libertarian?). If this happiness problem is really that bad for South Korea, it should start hitting the bottom lines of South Korean companies. It could come in 2 ways, decreased productivity and decreased ability for consumers to buy their products.
On April 03 2012 08:51 mordk wrote: Yep, this is true. In countries mostly ran under a highly capitalistic system, wealth and power tends to go to the little minorities while the rest suffer the oppression. The possibilities for a real meritocracy are destroyed by this simple fact.
In my country, for example, 1% of the population earns more than 5 times the amount the following 19% earn, and more than 20 times as much as the people in the lower 20%. This means that those people get every benefit on everything, including education, health, jobs, pretty much anything you can think of.
That lower 20% can never get out of there unless they get extremely lucky, because the best teachers are always hired by private, expensive schools, the best infrastructure is in those schools, they have the best transportation facilities, the better medicine, and overall the better conditions in which to develop their full potential. In the end, no matter how much effort that family makes, it would be impossible for their children to rise in the social scale unless they get some sort of help from the government, which is right now extremely lacking, because they focus all their efforts on the "free market and the free competition", which is actually not free at all, just regulated and managed by those who get the biggest benefit out of it.
Really a terrible situation.
Do you honestly believe that today, political and economic power is MORE concentrated than it was 200 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago? I think the unequivocal answer is that today, at least in democratic and growing nations (OECD countries, etc.), there is more opportunity for people to transition out of poverty than ever before. To go along with that, people have more influence over the political process. Decades ago, we didn't know that the political and economic systems were being manipulated but they WERE! Corporations have been around for hundreds of years (going back to groups like the Dutch east India Company which wielded substantial political power) and have always influenced politics with their money. The great thing about today is that we have more tools to find out about this BS and more tools to deal with it.
I want to point out that, while in the US the income gap is rising, median income has also been rising. It has stagnated over the past 10 years or so. How exactly this corresponds to the welfare state, overall economic development, and other factors is unclear.
Also, it is MUCH better to be poor in the US today than ever before. Something like half of Americans will live below the poverty line at some point in their life. A much smaller number than that are below at any given time though. This suggests that people often transition above/below the line based on their decisions/circumstances and this in generally true. A poor person in the US has about a 33% chance of joining the middle-class in any given calendar year. If you have been poor for less than a year, that number is above 50%. Some of those people return to poverty. In general, if you have been poor for a short time, you will probably escape poverty. The longer you are poor, the less likely it is that you will overcome it. This sounds about right to me. Sometimes, bad stuff happens but resourceful and determined people usually overcome it.
As per the OP statement, I am skeptical that this problem in Korea can be linked so easily to austerity, but the article makes a good case. Clearly, it is something to think about. Is the causal story really that convincing though? In economics, it rarely is, regardless of your ideology.
Also, I wonder if there is a market remedy for this type of problem (can you tell yet that I'm a biased libertarian?). If this happiness problem is really that bad for South Korea, it should start hitting the bottom lines of South Korean companies. It could come in 2 ways, decreased productivity and decreased ability for consumers to buy their products.
I never said anything about earlier times. Of course what you say is true. That doesn't make it any less true that "meritocracy" is a fallacy, and is only valid if you have a certain baseline status.
For example, I'm lazy as fuck, yet I'm a med student, and I'm probably going to earn a lot more than many people who work their asses off, but there's no way in hell they could pay for a decent school, which means there's no way in hell they can access a decent career.
If this were a fair meritocratic system, by now I'd be living in the streets.
And it gives a nice bit of background into the culture in which young Korean people grow up, so I thought it might of interest on TL. It makes the decision to become a pro-gamer look even more risky than it first appears.
Actually, I think that can partly explain why Koreans are more willing to give up their youths to become progamers. If you don't have much to look forward to then why not give progaming a shot? Quite the interesting article.
Frankly, Korea grew too fast. They went from a war-torn country to 15th ranked economy in the span of mere 50-60 years. This is all good news for the Korean socieity. The bad news is that their political system couldn't catch up to the economy growth. This is really the main reason why so many things appear to be wrong in the Korean society. These problems were always there, able to stay under the rug while the nation was enjoying the economy growth. However, when the growth started slowing down, these problems began to get noticed. They range from corruptions in political system and corporations to education systems to financial bubbles to simple things such as country's infrastructure (such as water, electricity, roads).
Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
There is a general feeling in the population that if they are experiencing a problem, there is nothing that can be done to fix it. For example, the big issue here recently is the schoo violence by so called "bullies" (however, these aren't just normal bullies like Nelson from Simpsons; these are actual gangs members). There have been several students who commited suicides over this.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
On April 03 2012 12:01 kevinthemighty wrote: The real question is what Asian country IS happy?
Lol, the fact that I had to think about that question made me smirk...
I'm not too sure .. sadly.. =(
I would love to live in Russia actually. Despite the publicity on Putin that he is reshaping the country back to its Soviet root, I still think highly of his charisma and the fact that he is constantly improving the living condition of the citizen. Plus Russian woman gloat an aura of lady-like quality that the North American city girls lack. In Canada, as for now all we got are spoiled brats.
I know my Korean in-laws are pumping a lot of money and support into my brother-in-law. My wife said they are neglecting her, but she said she understands because her brother is trying to finish all of his schooling. He's like 24 western age right now.
*EDIT* Oh yeah and one of my wife's close friends killed them self by slitting her wrist. So yeah the suicide rate is definitely up there.
On April 02 2012 19:53 goldenwitch wrote: Clearly an economist finds non-cultural reasons for unhappiness. If it's a free market that is making koreans unhappy, why is the rest of the western world which is also on a free market not unhappy?.
Other than the fact that no market is truly free, please show me your source that other "first world nations" or western nations are "happy," however it is arbitrarily defined (in America media articles, I notice a strong emphasis over GDP per capita over much else. Surprise! That's what we're told to value here).
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
I agree with that, in fact there's a video called "the paradox of choice" which shows that happiness is inversely proportional to how much freedom you have, or at least, how much freedom you believe you have. One more reason Fate or Religions are so enticing to people.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Well at least there are temporary things like this in Korea that helps when people are so unhappy
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
I'm pretty sure a depressed alcoholic can find a bar / restaurant in any country.
EDIT: You seem to assume that these people are sad and still have money for partying. Part of their sadness may be the failure of their ambitions has lead them to a state of financial disparity.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls, and other things, when I was attacked and accused of not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned it in the first place. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard you are. . Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our conversation in that other thread now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting right now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Drink a bit of scotch, watch a movie, and go to bed. No use in being angry because someone shut down your silly slandering and attacks. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
I'm pretty sure a depressed alcoholic can find a bar / restaurant in any country.
EDIT: You seem to assume that these people are sad and still have money for partying. Part of their sadness may be the failure of their ambitions has lead them to a state of financial disparity.
ah no, this is not what I meant. indeed, the statistics show that this "sadness" cannot be simply remedied with simple pleasures. however, I would like to point out that certain pleasures in korea are easier to find, cheaper and more accessible (everything can be found within a short walk in Seoul).
but again you are right that their sadness can have deeper and multiple issues that cannot be easily fixed.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
I agree with that, in fact there's a video called "the paradox of choice" which shows that happiness is inversely proportional to how much freedom you have, or at least, how much freedom you believe you have. One more reason Fate or Religions are so enticing to people.
There are many studies on choice, was thinking of bringing it up in a previous post to illustrate the complexity of so called happiness.
Can add another we tend to relate to happiness, income. Don't remember the study without looking it up(think it was on 300.000 Americans, perhaps someone knows what study that is)but a professor basically said that according to the study there is a very strong correlation between low income and unhappiness, unlike the correlation between high income and happiness.
Happiness isn't a simple as most people might think.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. :s
Anyways, you know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
Ehh, here's to wishing there's less conformism in Korean society. Loosening up a bit and promoting more individuality tends to make people happier.
On April 03 2012 12:01 kevinthemighty wrote: The real question is what Asian country IS happy?
Lol, the fact that I had to think about that question made me smirk...
I'm not too sure .. sadly.. =(
I would love to live in Russia actually. Despite the publicity on Putin that he is reshaping the country back to its Soviet root, I still think highly of his charisma and the fact that he is constantly improving the living condition of the citizen. Plus Russian woman gloat an aura of lady-like quality that the North American city girls lack. In Canada, as for now all we got are spoiled brats.
No, you do not want to live in Russia. I agree, at least in my opinion, that Russia would be an awesome place to visit and tour and I'm a bit of a Russophile, and I agree about the part about the govt. improving the economy and living conditions and stuff, but it's not like it's great today to live in. It still has a long way to go. When you've met some Russian immigrants who defend the country to the hilt and will still tell you it's not great living there, yeah.. you tend to not want to live there a whole lot. I've also had a couple relatives work there on long-term business assignments. Comparing to other countries in Europe they've worked in, it didn't rank too well. :s I know I like Russia a bit, maybe you like Russia, but fact of the matter is that it's probably better for you to stay in Canada than going and living in Russia. I mean I really wish it improves dramatically like in the next decade or so, but as it stands now, I can't help but question why you would want to live there.
On April 03 2012 12:01 kevinthemighty wrote: The real question is what Asian country IS happy?
Lol, the fact that I had to think about that question made me smirk...
I'm not too sure .. sadly.. =(
I would love to live in Russia actually. Despite the publicity on Putin that he is reshaping the country back to its Soviet root, I still think highly of his charisma and the fact that he is constantly improving the living condition of the citizen. Plus Russian woman gloat an aura of lady-like quality that the North American city girls lack. In Canada, as for now all we got are spoiled brats.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
On April 03 2012 11:09 jellyjello wrote: Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
I want to quote this just because of how true I believe it to be. Small businesses ,which do a large part in the growth of the economy, jobs, and production, are becoming downtrodden in the economic stagnation. This, in turn, only serves to exasperate the problem. When the majority of workers are working for the same corporations, there is no competition among employers, and the employees have less job security, less pay, and more hours.
The only people that are winning in the stagnation of small business, are the people running the corporations.
Not the whole picture, but it's a big cause of the increasing wealth disparity between those on top and those at the bottom.
On April 03 2012 00:28 Azarkon wrote: For those looking for Asian culture reasons to the suicide rate - mind explaining why Lithuania has a higher suicide rate than South Korea?
Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
On April 03 2012 11:09 jellyjello wrote: Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
I want to quote this just because of how true I believe it to be. Small businesses ,which do a large part in the growth of the economy, jobs, and production, are becoming downtrodden in the economic stagnation. This, in turn, only serves to exasperate the problem. When the majority of workers are working for the same corporations, there is no competition among employers, and the employees have less job security, less pay, and more hours.
The only people that are winning in the stagnation of small business, are the people running the corporations.
Not the whole picture, but it's a big cause of the increasing wealth disparity between those on top and those at the bottom.
Did internship with Korean Education Ministry and this sentiment is widespread. The government knows this is an issue and they are actually trying to make amends. One specific thing they are trying to do is lessen the stranglehold that Samsung has over Korean economics. Recently, there was an outrage that Samsung was spreading into every damn market in Korea, such as bakeries....kinda hard to compete with a multi-billion dollar bakery...
HOWEVER, samsung has so many lobbyists and politicians waiting to do their bidding....they ain't gonna take this easily.
On April 03 2012 01:13 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Once upon a time, the Soviet Union collapsed, leading into heavy economic depression, chaos, and societal problems in the former Soviet states. Lithuania, to say the least, has many, many issues. It comes as no surprise there would be a high suicide rate.
There's of course many reasons for the high suicide rate in Korea. I'll add a minor possible reason, in that the kpop culture sorta influences guys to be pretty... effeminate. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but having thin skin like that for a guy can make you not as able to bear stressful things.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
On April 03 2012 11:09 jellyjello wrote: Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
I want to quote this just because of how true I believe it to be. Small businesses ,which do a large part in the growth of the economy, jobs, and production, are becoming downtrodden in the economic stagnation. This, in turn, only serves to exasperate the problem. When the majority of workers are working for the same corporations, there is no competition among employers, and the employees have less job security, less pay, and more hours.
The only people that are winning in the stagnation of small business, are the people running the corporations.
Not the whole picture, but it's a big cause of the increasing wealth disparity between those on top and those at the bottom.
Did internship with Korean Education Ministry and this sentiment is widespread. The government knows this is an issue and they are actually trying to make amends. One specific thing they are trying to do is lessen the stranglehold that Samsung has over Korean economics. Recently, there was an outrage that Samsung was spreading into every damn market in Korea, such as bakeries....kinda hard to compete with a multi-billion dollar bakery...
HOWEVER, samsung has so many lobbyists and politicians waiting to do their bidding....they ain't gonna take this easily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Korean conglomerates run an overwhelming part of the economy? How can the govt. beat that kind of power? Heck, even in the US we have tons of corporations and tons of business of all sizes, and yet we still have a lobbying problem :s. How is it over in Korea (besides what you already commented on)? Because if the conglomerates run the show, what can the govt. do?
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
oh ye, after thinking a bit more, a lot suicide folks that i know of were 40-50 years old, maybe mid age crysis and the difference between growing up in soviet regime and living at the vastly different modern Lithuania hits people really hard, but then time should fix this as well and tbh this is totally offtopic, since im pretty sure reasons for suicide between lithuanians and koreans are quite different.
On April 03 2012 09:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: [quote] Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
oh ye, after thinking a bit more, a lot suicide folks that i know of were 40-50 years old, maybe mid age crysis and the difference between growing up in soviet regime and living at the vastly different modern Lithuania hits people really hard, but then time should fix this as well and tbh this is totally offtopic, since im pretty sure reasons for suicide between lithuanians and koreans are quite different.
Yeah, that's true. But suicide is suicide, and whatever the reason, it's usually takes a depressed and downtrodden person to do that sort of thing. What matters at the core is alleviating the issues causing high suicide rates. The main thing is inspiring people. If people can look more on the bright side of things, it doesn't get so bad to the point of suicide, no matter the ordeals. That's what matters. With will and hope, it can be overcome. Easier said than done (true story), but killing one's self is just tragic. It should not happen, for their sake and for their lives.
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
oh ye, after thinking a bit more, a lot suicide folks that i know of were 40-50 years old, maybe mid age crysis and the difference between growing up in soviet regime and living at the vastly different modern Lithuania hits people really hard, but then time should fix this as well and tbh this is totally offtopic, since im pretty sure reasons for suicide between lithuanians and koreans are quite different.
Yeah, that's true. But suicide is suicide, and whatever the reason, it's usually takes a depressed and downtrodden person to do that sort of thing. What matters at the core is alleviating the issues causing high suicide rates. The main thing is inspiring people. If people can look more on the bright side of things, it doesn't get so bad to the point of suicide, no matter the ordeals. That's what matters. With will and hope, it can be overcome. Easier said than done (true story), but killing one's self is just tragic. It should not happen, for their sake and for their lives.
one of reasons may as well be media, which does so many shows about huge suicide rate etc, people see others suiciding, something sad happens and they start seeing suicide as a normal course of actions.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
On April 03 2012 11:09 jellyjello wrote: Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
I want to quote this just because of how true I believe it to be. Small businesses ,which do a large part in the growth of the economy, jobs, and production, are becoming downtrodden in the economic stagnation. This, in turn, only serves to exasperate the problem. When the majority of workers are working for the same corporations, there is no competition among employers, and the employees have less job security, less pay, and more hours.
The only people that are winning in the stagnation of small business, are the people running the corporations.
Not the whole picture, but it's a big cause of the increasing wealth disparity between those on top and those at the bottom.
Did internship with Korean Education Ministry and this sentiment is widespread. The government knows this is an issue and they are actually trying to make amends. One specific thing they are trying to do is lessen the stranglehold that Samsung has over Korean economics. Recently, there was an outrage that Samsung was spreading into every damn market in Korea, such as bakeries....kinda hard to compete with a multi-billion dollar bakery...
HOWEVER, samsung has so many lobbyists and politicians waiting to do their bidding....they ain't gonna take this easily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Korean conglomerates run an overwhelming part of the economy? How can the govt. beat that kind of power? Heck, even in the US we have tons of corporations and tons of business of all sizes, and yet we still have a lobbying problem :s. How is it over in Korea (besides what you already commented on)? Because if the conglomerates run the show, what can the govt. do?
Korean government has a lot of power; they just choose to not exercise it. The corruption is still a part of the problem, but ultimately it comes down to the lack of interest in the political scene from everyone. Only recently it's been picking up. Korea has now entered into what I'd call "Second generation" era, meaning those who experienced the highs of Korean growth (such as 1988 Olympics) are now entering their middle age. This is going to be a very interest next few years in the Korean politics. Media are already adapting to the new change; they are focusing more on the politics, TV news stations are holding more debates, more media coverages on cracking down dubious policies or lawmakers using hidden cameras.
Comparing US politic to Korean politic is like comparing Iphone4 to first generation cordless phone.
Lithuania doing great compared to former soviet republics. That is absolutely the opposite of what you wrote. I would also like you to list "many issues" that Lithuania has derived directly from the downfall of USSR. Real curious here!
I called you out on posting bs previously, you also need to stop being a racist fuck and taking stabs at asians, or "orientals" as you call them. This is not the first time for you, you're always kind of slimy and elusive by not being direct but it is still pretty obvious.
Yes, I remember when you "called me out" (if calling someone out means immaturely slandering them), and I completely shut you down and you slinked back into the hole you crawled out of. I guess you're still asshurt. Get over it. As far as being a racist fuck? HAHAHA!! No idea how it's racist to say shit's tough in Lithuania. That's a fact. Thanks for trolling kthxbai. Don't pull shit out of your ass, grow up, kid, and stop the slander. Slimy and elusive? What the heck? XD I think I'm pretty damn straight-forward hahaha. Oh god, people like you are seriously off their rocker. "I don't like this guy's post despite it being true so I'll flame him to make my non-existent esteem better".
So let me guess, Lithuania is a fucking utopia to live in, best country in the world, etc. That's what you're saying? HAHA! Come on kid, make me laugh some more XD. If all you're doing is looking at a GDP figure (which isn't very good anyways), then you have no case at all. When you've known people who've lived in Lithuania, when you've known people who have worked there, when you've read about it, etc., then come talk to me. It isn't a great place to live in comparing to many other developed countries. It's not something I like, especially because I love slavic folks, but it's the way it is . And if you're curious, yes, the suicide rate actually rose dramatically with the USSR's collapse, reaching as high as 46 per 100,000 during the mid-late 1990s, so the fact that you're denying statistical information shows how desperate you are to dig yourself out of that deep trench you fell into the last time you aggressively attacked me.
Like with Russia (and other former Soviet countries), the 1990s was really, really tough economically and politically. Life got tougher. The economy basically nosedived and it was pretty chaotic. Crime and alcoholism and other things were on the rise bigtime. You had a hugely rising business oligarchic group in many of these former republics eating up a lot of the wealth while everyone else got shit on much worse than during the Soviet period. As previously mentioned, as a result of everything going shitty, suicides went way up. The suicide rate has come down somewhat by now, but obviously Lithuania is still on top of the world when it comes to that sort of thing. Since the turn of the millennium, things have been improving but it's still a long way to go. But yes, it is tougher social conditions, poverty, and other things in Lithuania that's basically caused the suicide rate to be that high during the 90s, and having the world's highest even to this day. If life was fine and dandy there, the suicide rate wouldn't be so high. Put it this way, if the US economy crashed, as in several times worse than the Great Depression, and things didn't even start getting better for a decade, I dare you to honestly tell me things would be so rosy lol.
Sucks to have your ass handed to you again, doesn't it? Don't pick fights you can't win. Word of advice: Listen to some Metallica, preferably something from the Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets albums (my faves), and chill out bro. \m/>_<\m/
I'm not going to argue with a demented person that pisses all over himself every time he gets called out on the ridiculous incomprehensive shit that he posts. I'll just point a few things out and hope to never read your filth again.
Lithuanians make more on average or are at least on par with every other former soviet republic. If you actually went to Russia and then to Lithuania you would be shocked by a contrast. Lithuania does actually look like Europe. I know you "read a lot and know peepz" but I assure you - it is exactly the way I said it. How do I know? I lived in the region for 19 years and went to Lithuania multiple times.
It might shock you but lithuanians are not slavs. The conversation should be over after that statement really. The only slavs that live there are ethnic russians. But I'm sure you know all of this.
You attributed suicides to the collapse of communist governments but in fact no one even tries to claim this with any degree of certainty, especially since Hungary posted steadily decreasing suicide rates since the collapse. The number you provided for mid 1990s makes zero sense in this regard since Lithuania was doing a lot better economically back then compared to recently. And you also have every other soviet republic with worse economy yet lower suicide rates. Doesn't really compute. Throw Switzerland, Japan and SK in the mix. Even Finland is high on the list. Explain that purely through economics and youre a genius.
Thanks for your shitty attempt at a history lesson - even as someone who lived there through all those years I wouldn't have said anything if it was remotely accurate (not even hard nowadays given wikipedia and google) but you couldn't even do that.
You know what I meant by calling you out on being a racist, just like I did previously. Don't pretend to be an idiot, you don't even have to ffs. Go type up another adventure story about you hooking up with "oriental" girls of korean origin lmao.
Someone sounds jealous . Also, all I said was that I've dated Asian girls when I was attacked for not liking Asians, by you I think it was, because I said kpop culture can sometimes be lolwtf. I didn't know a simple statement was writing adventure stories, but if you interpreted it that way, then whatever. In any case, I'm sorry I even mentioned I've dated Asian girls. It seems to have made you particularly angry XD! No wonder why you're so messed up and aggressive with me. I guess there was something else making you mad besides the fact I've thrown you in a bottomless pit two out of two times you've aggressively attacked me . I was just talking about Lithuania, not anywhere else btw. Since you had absolutely nothing to counter my point, you wrote a wall of text just to prove what a tryhard failure you are. XD. Oh boy, I love good entertainment. I won't lie.
I also love the fact that I've said nothing racist and yet you're still raging like a dim-witted, mad drunk slandering me and calling me racist with no basis at all. Yeah, apparently it's racist to say the 1990s were a really shitty time in Lithuania. And let me guess, you would also say that it's racist to eat sushi and not be Japanese. LOL! Someone is seriously asshurt XD. You're so asshurt you're not even making sense .
Btw, if apparently the US sucks so bad since we're referring to our first conversation now, why did you move from "Europe"? For your information, Europe isn't a country. Usually when you say you moved from somewhere, you say the country or state/province or city, not the continent. I guess you think Europe is a country though? LOL! That said, some Swedish dude already called you out on your bullshit in one of your posts (surprised not all of them), so it's all good.
I'll just assume you're some 12 year-old kid and leave it at that. I'm actually looking at it optimistically, because no one in their late teens or 20s or older can possibly be as idiotic as you're acting like now without having some serious mental issue. I seriously suggest you chill out. Judging by your behavior, you probably go batshit insane raging when you lose a game in SC. That's not good, dude.
My opinion of this squabble is that you are very condescending and you should have quit while you were ahead several posts ago.
The post to which you replied is my third post in this thread. Several back would be in the negative. You know what they say. "When you're ahead, get more ahead."
However, my main interest is in how entertaining this guy is. I missed Funday Monday, but this is almost as good.
I can't say I'm that condescending, though. Putting a flaming, aggressive kid in his place after attacking me isn't condescending. I admit my tone came across that way given what I'm dealing with, but this guy's been terribly entertaining. I have suggested twice for him to chill out. Let's see if he keeps on going . I don't expect him to, and I'd sincerely like him to chill the fuck out, but she's got some serious beef with me. I mean, he attacked me once again when the last ordeal was a few weeks ago. He holds quite a grudge . I guess shutting him down hurt him deep last time. Tbh, I have no ire against him because I'm a chill guy and forgive and forget, but this guy's hating.
Now I'm not saying I'm perfect (far from it), but to call me very condescending is imo quite baseless, and makes me scratch my head a bit. You know, including kinda awkward people in on things despite getting questioning from my friends on why the heck I brought them along isn't condescending.. Helping druggies/depressives/etc. I've known turn their life around when practically everyone gave up on them isn't condescending. Helping Bronze players improve their skills and see what they need to be working on isn't condescending. Volunteering at homeless shelters helping people who have it worse than anyone isn't that sort of thing. And yes I fucking care about all these sorts of people, or else I wouldn't have bothered. And trust me, I didn't get anything in return for having done any of it. I could go on all night, but if you're claiming that I'm "very condescending" because I got some 5-star entertainment value out of hard-countering a guy who is attacking me for no rational reason at all, then I'd suggest you rethink that claim .
On April 03 2012 13:12 Golgotha wrote: north korea is not why we are sad.
the true reason lies within the strict and conformist culture we have and how it pervades into our politics, economics, and social structure.
but to be honest...Korea is like the BEST place for sad folks. Seriously, you can drink the night away, eat mind blowing good food, club hopping, karaoke with friends, more drinking, smoking (beware of doing drugs in korea, it can get fked up for you ) and of course PC BANG!
so much to do folks. so if u are depressed go there and have wicked fun.
Sounds pretty cool, but America's Finest City is sick too. I gotta say, as far as drinking the night away goes, soju is pretty fucking awesome. During my spring break, I bought some Jinro, drank it, and hit parties/clubs and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I'd say I like soju almost as much as vodka as far as taste and strength go, and how much more awesome and fun parties get. Thank you Koreans for soju .
may i interrupt, but this is getting hilarious, as well as that discussion about lithuania before ;O
I'm having fun. No harm in that amirite.
But finally. A Lithuanian. Now, can you shed some first-hand light on how things are over there? By that I mean living conditions of the general populace, societal issues, that sort of thing, that is contributing to a rather high suicide rate? My original point was the statistical fact that suicide rates hit extreme highs following the Soviet collapse, and while it has improved since the 90s, it is, well, still the highest in the world . Now, if you know about some of the related issues and if you could shed some light on them, that would be great for the discussion.
Hmm, since i'm living in capital i can't really talk about smaller cities/villages, but i will write about what i noticed so far ;D Most of the suicide cases that i know of were because of alcoholism, debts or just because of life traumas. Alcoholism is actually caused by the "drink to be cool" mentality that came from soviet union and is still pretty big here, especially is smaller villages. Then debts and such can be associated with the collapse, because after that happened there were a lot of frauds and corruption, which led to massive debts and such, since now country is getting more and more stable, suicides because of this reason are becoming extinct. Then the 3rd reason that i mentioned is in no way affected by the collapse, ofcourse you could say that school bullying has been affected by the lifestyle that was "inspired" by soviet union, as in stronger is superior and smart doesn't mean anything, but i don't really know, on top of that some suicides are really silly, for example guy exploding himself because of his lover leaving him <.< To be fair, i don't even know why are people here loving suiciding, never thought too much about it, maybe im just being a bit ignorant. EDIT: oh yeah, sry for the bad quality of post, but i haven't slept whole night and im too tired to even bother fixing it ;/
Sad to hear . Well, hopefully with improving quality of life will come a further reduction in suicides, and that people who have suicidal tendencies learn to see more of the bright side of life. And with relevance to the thread, same goes with regard to Korea.
On April 03 2012 11:09 jellyjello wrote: Korea is the perfect case of rich getting richer (no wonder people are unhappy). The government does very little to protect small businesses that have the potential to grow. The end result is that these businesses stay stagnant instead of being invested and expanding further. Any surplus that these shop owners make, instead, goes to the real state (if not savings account) due to the heavy involvement of the Korean government in the land development (this is a whole another topic).
I want to quote this just because of how true I believe it to be. Small businesses ,which do a large part in the growth of the economy, jobs, and production, are becoming downtrodden in the economic stagnation. This, in turn, only serves to exasperate the problem. When the majority of workers are working for the same corporations, there is no competition among employers, and the employees have less job security, less pay, and more hours.
The only people that are winning in the stagnation of small business, are the people running the corporations.
Not the whole picture, but it's a big cause of the increasing wealth disparity between those on top and those at the bottom.
Did internship with Korean Education Ministry and this sentiment is widespread. The government knows this is an issue and they are actually trying to make amends. One specific thing they are trying to do is lessen the stranglehold that Samsung has over Korean economics. Recently, there was an outrage that Samsung was spreading into every damn market in Korea, such as bakeries....kinda hard to compete with a multi-billion dollar bakery...
HOWEVER, samsung has so many lobbyists and politicians waiting to do their bidding....they ain't gonna take this easily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Korean conglomerates run an overwhelming part of the economy? How can the govt. beat that kind of power? Heck, even in the US we have tons of corporations and tons of business of all sizes, and yet we still have a lobbying problem :s. How is it over in Korea (besides what you already commented on)? Because if the conglomerates run the show, what can the govt. do?
yup exactly what I am talking about. well, like I said it's gonna be fking tough. HOWEVER, the public is starting to become more aware of this situation and more and more are backing the government. This gives them some leverage over the conglomerates. Also, technical wise, they will TRY to reform the structure of these conglomerates so that one man (especially the CEO of Samsung) is not allowed to hold so much power in multiple markets. Currently, the Samsung CEO only has small shares in various sectors of his corporation and businesses, bypassing the problem of being a monopoly. However, in actuality he runs the whole damn show and everyone knows he is the big boss. That is why Samsung can be everywhere and yet not appear to be everywhere.
oh and subsidies for small businesses are a big thing to make it a more level playing field. hoped this helped and I am sorry I do not know more!
First off, lol at the topic starter's name being "optimism" :D.
Moving on, I'd like to give a bit of anecdotal evidence of the economic problems in Korea. I don't know too much about them and I haven't really done my research, but there are families that come over from Korea when the parents are as old as 50 to 60 years old in order to find new careers. At that age, its very scary to think that they need to begin all over again with no pension, no securities, can't speak the language, etc. But they honestly have no choice. At the age of 50 or so, these men (with children in their late teens) lose their jobs to younger employees and are often left with no retirement money back in Korea. It's impossible for them to survive in Korea, and despite the fact that they have such a minimal chance in finding a job in America (some of these families are illegal immigrants mind you), they still believe they have a better chance in America than in their home country.
As for the youth, I also believe that their school hours and their cultural disposition towards senseless overworking is causing massive issues in terms of their happiness. My father (back in the 1970's) attended one of the best high schools in Seoul. He said that the competition was insane. Everyone had to study non-stop. He said that if a student were to stop studying for 1 week, that student could drop from the top 10 or so into absolute oblivion. When I was in high school, I probably could've stopped studying for a month straight and my rank would've dropped at most 1 or 2 places. Today, the students have to study just as much, but if it is true that they still have barely a chance at finding a job, I can see why they would hate their lives. No security despite overworking themselves.
Lastly, and this is a strongly opinionated thought, I hate the shallow modern culture of Korea (I'm American with Korean immigrant parents). I've once read an article saying that in America, the people who are the hardest working at what they do aren't doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc, but instead "popular" high school students. American high school students invest the most amount of energy, time and money into becoming popular that it becomes obsessive. Although I will admit that this may be a bit exaggerated, this mindset has sprouted up in Korea in the recent 10 or so years. With all the plastic surgery and concern about every minute physical detail of their bodies, Korean students don't only have to worry about their studies, but also about their looks. I won't go to far into this, as there has been a lot of discussion over in the recent blog on this topic, but I believe that this mindset does not help the rising stress problems for the South Korean students. In fact, I would not doubt if this is a result of the pressure, as students who cannot keep up in studies (or maybe even are just status quo) seek new means of separating themselves from the packs.
Personally, I think Korea's accelerated success and flaws in their culture make for very unhappy people. Until they learn to change their mindset, they will continue to drill themselves into a worse and worse position until only drastic change will correct their situation.
I thought the article was a great read and highly correlative with a lot of other media I've come upon. I've noticed the TL community houses a fair number of people who regard korea as a type of gaming utopia and tend to idolize anything Korean. Hopefully this article gives them a more open glimpse into the real situation.
On April 03 2012 12:01 kevinthemighty wrote: The real question is what Asian country IS happy?
Funny you asked.
This is another survey that has basically the same results, but includes Asian countries outside of the OECD countries - which don't have a great sampling of Asian countries -
On April 02 2012 18:53 Maitolasi wrote: Korean children study twice as many hours as Finnish children? What the hell? Do they have 12 hour days in school? I can't see how having no hobbies or time with friends is in any way healthy for children.
Yes... yes they do. My parents tell me how the went to school in the morning and came back after it was dark then studied late every day
I think this article is a bit over the top. It makes Korea to sound like a slave driven hell hole. In my experience Korea is made so great by the Koreans themselves. Everyone is friendly and there is a hard to describe sense of innocence that made me love living there. Violent crime and robbery to a large extent just don’t exist and most shops keep stock unguarded outside without fear of people stealing it. I had to explain to my Korean friend why I find that amazing and she wouldn’t believe me. I told her people would just steal stuff if shops left goods outside in England and she thought I was exaggerating or making it up.
The Korean medical system gets a bit of slamming in this article and it is true there is no social welfare support system like my country England has. However the service provided is amazing (you have to wait for months to get anything in England) and the cost is ridiculously cheap compared to other countries that don’t have welfare programmes (All my American friends agree).
I know I was in a quite privileged position probably been paid quite a bit more than average lower level worker in Korea and I am fully aware of how image based and competitive society it is. These are issues I don’t have to deal with been a foreigner but can understand might be very pressuring if I was native.
Life’s largely what you make of it and maybe I was just lucky but all the Koreans I associated with took me in under their wings and we had a lot of fun. I’m going back as soon as my legs better.
I get the general impression the writer was trying to make a point about British social and political policies and thus writing with an agenda which required making Korea out to be a hell whole which just largely isn’t true.
------- I worked in a Korean school and the kids obviously don't have 12 hour school days. But they do work really hard and go to Hagwons (academys) after school for to make up about that kind of time. They normally get sent to camps and things all summer and winter to they have so little free time. Poor things.
Working in Korea as a foriegner is absolutely nothing comparable to actually living in Korea as a Korean. You're paid more than the average korean, you have your own place, you're completely free of the Korean social pressures (this is a huge issue) that exist, and your job is easy-peasy compared what many Koreans have to do.
Korea may just be the best place to live as a foreigner, because you have access to all the good aspects of Korea and avoid all the negative aspects.
I heard the suicide rate is up at a specific time of the year because when they turn a certain age, they take a test that basically determines their future. Mainly cause of the anxiety or fear of not passing? :s
I've worked and lived here for the last 2~ ish years, it's completely different from a foreigner who comes here to teach English and an actual Korean perspective. While I never taught English (worked for Samsung), working brutal hours, having cultural pressures put on you is absolutely awful. Even going to a SKY school - it's hard to get anything anymore.
It's because apparently every single korean listens to the same kpop songs over and over and over and over no exceptions bar none. I would be unhappy too.
Just from an outsider's perspective... I visited Seoul recently as I had a two day stopover on my trip to China. It was depressing. Why?
1. No culture. Just an urban landscape with shitty shops that sell overpriced shit. In countries like China and Japan small shops sell cheapass shit that is interesting. In Korea it's like overpriced everyday bullshit.
2. Crap food. Kim chi is shit, basically cooked vegetables with spices - and you're always left feeling hungry. At least in America you can buy all sorts of shit from all over the world and in decent portions.
3. Pollution. Ugh. No greenery. Just cars, smoke, industrial complexes. Not to mention how fucking cold it is most of the time... I mean, yeah, it's a country that's cold, but you'd think they'd give the city a warmer feeling like Japan etc.
On April 05 2012 17:18 Black Civil Rights wrote: Just from an outsider's perspective... I visited Seoul recently as I had a two day stopover on my trip to China. It was depressing. Why?
1. No culture. Just an urban landscape with shitty shops that sell overpriced shit. In countries like China and Japan small shops sell cheapass shit that is interesting. In Korea it's like overpriced everyday bullshit.
2. Crap food. Kim chi is shit, basically cooked vegetables with spices - and you're always left feeling hungry. At least in America you can buy all sorts of shit from all over the world and in decent portions.
3. Pollution. Ugh. No greenery. Just cars, smoke, industrial complexes. Not to mention how fucking cold it is most of the time... I mean, yeah, it's a country that's cold, but you'd think they'd give the city a warmer feeling like Japan etc.
1. Visits for 2 days and says theres no culture. gtfo troll
2. All you ate was kimchi the entire 2 days? Yeah that would be pretty shitty even for some Koreans.
since i am young in the UK (13) i feel like that my life is consumed by studying and sometimes really unhappy but i muddle throughm i understand why the korean kids are so unhappy. The esports culture in Korea should help if it wasn't fro the stupid laws.
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
This is odd. If their corporations are under international shareholder pressure, then why is there still a discount on Korean equity? They aren't being as profiteering as this economist makes them out to be. If they have been trying to maximize share prices then they've done a terrible job, even in this world economy. Because of things like honor and family, their businesses are actually more risky and it's reflected in their stock prices.
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
What a douche.
If anything, smaller features on asian girls are prettier by most standards, especially when you talk about faces. Ofc bigger eyes are sexier but not typical european kind of eye, but slantier eye with sharper corners. At least thats the trend and the reason why half euro chicks do arabic makeup trying to make they eyes look less round. So youre kind of off base here.
Everything else above the breast asian chicks dominate. When you say they are smaller - how is that a disadvantage? What kind of guy generally wants biggr girls? Unless ure fat or have some silly fetish?
You ever wonder why white chicks do tanning? They dont want to be very white huh? Nobody wants to be pale white son, its fckn disgusting. Asians got amazing skin if they take care of it.
Out of all the guys that I was shooting shit with nobody ever said anything about being turned off by asian chicks, its THE OPPOSITE.
Last thing - its truly mind boggling you rag on them asian girls given where you live. Seriously? You live in UK. WTF. SHUT UP.
Hungary represents again. We hold the world record for highest recorded suicide rate in history.
Gotta say, I'm not surprised by Korea either, especially wrt teen suicide. From what I read on TL the pressure on kids is brutal, both academically and socially.
On April 05 2012 17:18 Black Civil Rights wrote: Just from an outsider's perspective... I visited Seoul recently as I had a two day stopover on my trip to China. It was depressing. Why?
1. No culture. Just an urban landscape with shitty shops that sell overpriced shit. In countries like China and Japan small shops sell cheapass shit that is interesting. In Korea it's like overpriced everyday bullshit.
2. Crap food. Kim chi is shit, basically cooked vegetables with spices - and you're always left feeling hungry. At least in America you can buy all sorts of shit from all over the world and in decent portions.
3. Pollution. Ugh. No greenery. Just cars, smoke, industrial complexes. Not to mention how fucking cold it is most of the time... I mean, yeah, it's a country that's cold, but you'd think they'd give the city a warmer feeling like Japan etc.
On April 06 2012 03:30 Kevan wrote: Guys, guys calm down. We all know Swedish women are the most beautiful.
Hell no. Our women might be beautiful but nothing beats asian girls (especially Japanese girls).
Well, there are beautiful women in every country and I haven't seen them all so I can't comment. But I find it interesting that asian women(or their culture in general), in my experience, are more liked among nerds. Is it because we consume a lot of media from asia or the asian porn or something?
On April 06 2012 03:30 Kevan wrote: Guys, guys calm down. We all know Swedish women are the most beautiful.
Hell no. Our women might be beautiful but nothing beats asian girls (especially Japanese girls).
Well, there are beautiful women in every country and I haven't seen them all so I can't comment. But I find it interesting that asian women(or their culture in general), in my experience, are more liked among nerds. Is it because we consume a lot of media from asia or the asian porn or something?
No i just think they look more beautiful/cuter. And the fact that im a huge fan of Japan and asia (South-Korea, China, Taiwan, Singapore and so on).
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote: 2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
I felt bad at laughing at this, but I did.
Anyway adding on to the education thing. It is just such a huge factor, I am majorly taking into count the example of Universities actually covering down a large diameter (NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO PASS) from the university. And recently I have been studying upon Sir Ken Robinson's speech, largely regarding his performance in TED in 2006 and the Changing Education Paradigms
As a Korean New Zealander, I feel incredibly blessed to have migrated into this country with parents who are (kind of) moving away from the Korean educational mindset, as it just does not work. I am glad that Korean's who moved to this country realized how inefficient the educational system is in Korea, in terms of innovation for the future..
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
What a douche.
If anything, smaller features on asian girls are prettier by most standards, especially when you talk about faces. Ofc bigger eyes are sexier but not typical european kind of eye, but slantier eye with sharper corners. At least thats the trend and the reason why half euro chicks do arabic makeup trying to make they eyes look less round. So youre kind of off base here.
Everything else above the breast asian chicks dominate. When you say they are smaller - how is that a disadvantage? What kind of guy generally wants biggr girls? Unless ure fat or have some silly fetish?
You ever wonder why white chicks do tanning? They dont want to be very white huh? Nobody wants to be pale white son, its fckn disgusting. Asians got amazing skin if they take care of it.
Out of all the guys that I was shooting shit with nobody ever said anything about being turned off by asian chicks, its THE OPPOSITE.
Last thing - its truly mind boggling you rag on them asian girls given where you live. Seriously? You live in UK. WTF. SHUT UP.
small/tall, vocabulary you know. A girl can be tall and thin. And I was not stating the white girls were the prettiest or whatever. I'm more into latinas you see. And then country bashing, great. And I'm the douche. Once upon a time we could have a discussion on TL without any of the participant being overly aggressive, with proper writing, and without insulting. Once upon a time.
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
What a douche.
If anything, smaller features on asian girls are prettier by most standards, especially when you talk about faces. Ofc bigger eyes are sexier but not typical european kind of eye, but slantier eye with sharper corners. At least thats the trend and the reason why half euro chicks do arabic makeup trying to make they eyes look less round. So youre kind of off base here.
Everything else above the breast asian chicks dominate. When you say they are smaller - how is that a disadvantage? What kind of guy generally wants biggr girls? Unless ure fat or have some silly fetish?
You ever wonder why white chicks do tanning? They dont want to be very white huh? Nobody wants to be pale white son, its fckn disgusting. Asians got amazing skin if they take care of it.
Out of all the guys that I was shooting shit with nobody ever said anything about being turned off by asian chicks, its THE OPPOSITE.
Last thing - its truly mind boggling you rag on them asian girls given where you live. Seriously? You live in UK. WTF. SHUT UP.
small/tall, vocabulary you know. A girl can be tall and thin. And I was not stating the white girls were the prettiest or whatever. I'm more into latinas you see. And then country bashing, great. And I'm the douche. Once upon a time we could have a discussion on TL without any of the participant being overly aggressive, with proper writing, and without insulting. Once upon a time.
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment.
You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's.
Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can hea't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide.
It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age.
You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
your acting like those ppl that enforce the correct usage of the term "bonwja" or watever. chill out bro. Some american slaves lived very happy and healthy lives. but were still considered slaves from the lack of freedom granted. there is no extend of pain and misery that comes along with slavery that gives it its definition. your also the type to prolly say that anything less than grandmaster league is fuckin shit at this gamel. just the vibe im gettin bro #just saying
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
What a douche.
If anything, smaller features on asian girls are prettier by most standards, especially when you talk about faces. Ofc bigger eyes are sexier but not typical european kind of eye, but slantier eye with sharper corners. At least thats the trend and the reason why half euro chicks do arabic makeup trying to make they eyes look less round. So youre kind of off base here.
Everything else above the breast asian chicks dominate. When you say they are smaller - how is that a disadvantage? What kind of guy generally wants biggr girls? Unless ure fat or have some silly fetish?
You ever wonder why white chicks do tanning? They dont want to be very white huh? Nobody wants to be pale white son, its fckn disgusting. Asians got amazing skin if they take care of it.
Out of all the guys that I was shooting shit with nobody ever said anything about being turned off by asian chicks, its THE OPPOSITE.
Last thing - its truly mind boggling you rag on them asian girls given where you live. Seriously? You live in UK. WTF. SHUT UP.
small/tall, vocabulary you know. A girl can be tall and thin. And I was not stating the white girls were the prettiest or whatever. I'm more into latinas you see. And then country bashing, great. And I'm the douche. Once upon a time we could have a discussion on TL without any of the participant being overly aggressive, with proper writing, and without insulting. Once upon a time.
You guys are all off topic and incredibly stupid.
^What he said, I actually feel ashamed reading this, if some girl was beside me I'd have a hard time explaining to her how not all men are like you guys.
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
If Asian girls are the prettiest then why do they spend millions of dollars each year trying to look more like European girls?
Exactly what I was going to say, Asian girls are the prettiest if they are not too Asian. xD
What does that even mean? "If they are not too asian?" As in half asian/half caucasian? I'd like to know more about this asian girls want to look like european girl complex besides double eyelid surgery.
Well the average Asian girl has not much boobies, rather small, pronounced cheekbones, slanted eyes (much more than the models). And all the surgery and make up are designed to go away from these characteristics.
What a douche.
If anything, smaller features on asian girls are prettier by most standards, especially when you talk about faces. Ofc bigger eyes are sexier but not typical european kind of eye, but slantier eye with sharper corners. At least thats the trend and the reason why half euro chicks do arabic makeup trying to make they eyes look less round. So youre kind of off base here.
Everything else above the breast asian chicks dominate. When you say they are smaller - how is that a disadvantage? What kind of guy generally wants biggr girls? Unless ure fat or have some silly fetish?
You ever wonder why white chicks do tanning? They dont want to be very white huh? Nobody wants to be pale white son, its fckn disgusting. Asians got amazing skin if they take care of it.
Out of all the guys that I was shooting shit with nobody ever said anything about being turned off by asian chicks, its THE OPPOSITE.
Last thing - its truly mind boggling you rag on them asian girls given where you live. Seriously? You live in UK. WTF. SHUT UP.
small/tall, vocabulary you know. A girl can be tall and thin. And I was not stating the white girls were the prettiest or whatever. I'm more into latinas you see. And then country bashing, great. And I'm the douche. Once upon a time we could have a discussion on TL without any of the participant being overly aggressive, with proper writing, and without insulting. Once upon a time.
You guys are all off topic and incredibly stupid.
I agree, wtf. Stop that shit.
It is just so off-topic and shows mindless thinking into a real issue that is current in the world today, especially when that said issued country has a huge influence on this site(Esports, may I say)
On April 05 2012 17:39 affinity_12 wrote: Japan = nuclear radiation, average girls (not really into ganguro and all that eye-opening lens stuff)
Beijing = good food, average girls, worst pollution
Seoul = ok food, hot girls, ok pollution compared to Beijing
Visited all three cities back in 2007.
As a foreigner I think I was the most welcomed in Beijing, however I experienced no prejudice in any of these 3 countries.
But the pollution is just awful in Beijing, it was so unbearable I had to wear a mask.
lol............ Japan has extremely hot girls. Something must be wrong with you sry.
I must agree, Asian girls are the prettiest, especially Japanese. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
amen to that, love momoka nishina :D
Nono you've got it all wrong! It's all about Anna Anjo!
From what I've heard it's hard to find a hot Japanese girl but when you do, you hit the jackpot. From speculation in S.Korea the girls are usually hotter/prettier because they're practically obsessed with looks / people actually take care of their body.
On April 06 2012 05:51 Chill wrote: Post about the OP or don't post please.
To the people still posting about which country has hotter girls, did you not see this?
On topic: I don't know if it's been mentioned so far in the thread, but has there been any sort of reform or support for reform to make the education system more similar to Western education systems or just more quality over quantity in general?
Japanese girls aren't really my type. I like Asian women who have slanty eyes and more woman looking. And by slanty eyes I don't mean so small that you can't see the eyes.
Japanese girls are short, generally have bigger eyes, have weird fashion tastes and eye-opening lenses are just un-natural looking. I guess they could look more "European", but in the wrong kind of way. Japanese girls remind me of small children most of the time. I don't think European features are attractive in Asian women (except for tall nasal bridges)... just my opinion though.
Anyway back on topic I think Korea is the most "sad" country because they have no time to relax. From what I remember, they work the most hours out of the OECD, spend the most on education and everything needs to be so fast-paced. The competitive nature of Asian society in general doesn't help either.
On April 06 2012 09:36 affinity_12 wrote: Japanese girls aren't really my type. I like Asian women who have slanty eyes and more woman looking. And by slanty eyes I don't mean so small that you can't see the eyes.
Japanese girls are short, generally have bigger eyes, have weird fashion tastes and eye-opening lenses are just un-natural looking. I guess they could look more "European", but in the wrong kind of way. Japanese girls remind me of small children most of the time. I don't think European features are attractive in Asian women (except for tall nasal bridges)... just my opinion though.
Anyway back on topic I think Korea is the most "sad" country because they have no time to relax. From what I remember, they work the most hours out of the OECD, spend the most on education and everything needs to be so fast-paced. The competitive nature of Asian society in general doesn't help either.
Stop talking crap and take a look in the mirror and analyze your own facial features instead. You almost sound like a racist.
We all have different tastes. Let this be the end of this discussion now and stick to the topic.
This growing of unhapiness is seen all over the world, an immoral competitive environement coupled with economic struggle, it has never been healthy, Koreans are hard working people so they will put work beyond everything. That can't go on forever without a severe collective mental breakdown.
South Korea is still an Asian country where pupils study hard and educational qualification is very very important in society. Have no idea the exactly time Korean pupils have to study per day but in my country is about more 10 hours per day ( from 7AM until around 9PM ). The way the traditional Asian parents treat us the kids and so on
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote: And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
On April 06 2012 19:34 lain2501 wrote: This growing of unhapiness is seen all over the world, an immoral competitive environement coupled with economic struggle, it has never been healthy, Koreans are hard working people so they will put work beyond everything. That can't go on forever without a severe collective mental breakdown.
Economic struggle coupled with famine and war are probably the biggest reasons for unhappiness in any society
The GDP is kinda wrong really. Yes per capita it isnt great,but if you look at Seoul, GDP per capita there is very big, similar to other highly developed nations. Only the rural areas dragging the overall GDP down
On April 07 2012 06:01 storkfan wrote: The GDP is kinda wrong really. Yes per capita it isnt great,but if you look at Seoul, GDP per capita there is very big, similar to other highly developed nations. Only the rural areas dragging the overall GDP down
On April 07 2012 06:01 storkfan wrote: The GDP is kinda wrong really. Yes per capita it isnt great,but if you look at Seoul, GDP per capita there is very big, similar to other highly developed nations. Only the rural areas dragging the overall GDP down
That's the same for every country
The difference is Seoul is the 2nd biggest metropolis in the world, so it has vastly more of a wealth gathering advantage on other areas compared to what other countries' cities have.
On April 02 2012 18:53 Tazza wrote: I live in Korea, and yeah, times are really bad. It used to be that you come out of a decent university and you can get a decent job as well, but nowadays, even if you graduate out of one of the top three colleges in korea(SKY), times are still tough. from what my parents have told me, back in their times, the korean economy was just starting and so jobs were everywhere, but nowadays, with the economy sort of at a halt without much room for dramatic progress, there aren't any jobs around. Times are really tough in korea these days even if u get into a good university. imagine if you don't...
Post from way early in the thread, but I can second this. I studied at Korea University Business School, which is the best or second best business school in the country. We were pretty much told point-blank that half of us wouldn't get a job upon graduation in Korea.
It used to be that you just went to a top university and your grades didn't matter, you had a secure job to look forward to. Nowadays, even if you go to a top uni, you better put in the time to acquire other job-related skills (foreign languages, programming, internships etc.) -- called 'specs' in Korea -- or your future is in uncertain terms.
Employers, and especially the chaebols (Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, etc.) have way too much power, and employees way too little. The reason why Korean girls are so pretty and get so much plastic surgery? It's not just competition for a husband, a superficial culture, or for personal reasons -- unattractive (and old) people are severely discriminated against in the labour market.
Read about Korean celebrity suicides, not surprised about Korea's happiness when Korean female celebrities are forced to do plastic surgeries and sleep with their bosses / managers. Along with the nationalistic sentiments within Korea, Koreans look like really insecure people.
You've got to be kidding me. The suicides and unhappiness are due to Western economic policies? This is absolute left wing drivel. The author does not support his thesis at all. He doesn't mention other countries that have prospered by modernizing their financial system. Look at Chile. Also South Korea has socialized health care. That is NOT a "Washingtonian" or whatever he calls it policy at all.
I'm no South Korean expert, but I would personally be less than happy knowing that a neigbhour country may release chaos at any given time, maybe it's because I'm one of those guys that have a phobia related to nuclear war, but I wouldn't sleep comfortably knowing there are nukes pointing towards my country and everything I love, permanently, and knowing one day, because of stupid politics and interests I could possibly die. Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I was very miss-informed.
On April 09 2012 08:30 BerserKr wrote: I'm no South Korean expert, but I would personally be less than happy knowing that a neigbhour country may release chaos at any given time, maybe it's because I'm one of those guys that have a phobia related to nuclear war, but I wouldn't sleep comfortably knowing there are nukes pointing towards my country and everything I love, permanently, and knowing one day, because of stupid politics and interests I could possibly die. Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I was very miss-informed.
Exactly this. Maybe they are depressed because of the compulsory military service. Blaming economic liberty is just plain silly.
after conducting a research trip to South Korea in 2010 I would have to argue that part of this stems from its divided history. North and South Korea are treated by the rest of the world as if they are polar opposites, one a beacon of "democracy" and the other a communist totalitarian holdout. The governments of both have made use of that division to support their own policies and have worked to stifle dissent and attempts at reunification. I think the Korean peninsula in general would improve in terms of mental outlook if only both governments would allow for an eventual reunification of the two Koreas.
On April 09 2012 08:30 BerserKr wrote: I'm no South Korean expert, but I would personally be less than happy knowing that a neigbhour country may release chaos at any given time, maybe it's because I'm one of those guys that have a phobia related to nuclear war, but I wouldn't sleep comfortably knowing there are nukes pointing towards my country and everything I love, permanently, and knowing one day, because of stupid politics and interests I could possibly die. Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I was very miss-informed.
Exactly this. Maybe they are depressed because of the compulsory military service. Blaming economic liberty is just plain silly.
I'm pretty sure both factors are relevant.
It is far from "silly" to point out the economic factors, at least it's less silly than your assumption as someone who doesn't live there especially with several users from Korea confirming some aspects of it.
On April 02 2012 23:22 Velr wrote: Ever been to a Korean subway? People sleeping while standing (if they can't sit down) was a very common sight, from rather young guys (they were more often absorbed into some handheld Iphone/TV whatever) to older ones that looked like business man....
That tells more than thousand studies about a country and it's work mentality... No, it is or should not be normal that people just "shut down" as soon as they get a little break from work because they are to tired.
I don't think this correlates directly with capitalism, but it corelates with a failure in SKoreas developement which follows capitalist ideology.
Let's fix it: Give the people some time to live whiteout immediatly risking poverty and they will be happier (and mroe productive/less ill... In general better off)... (Rocket Science!!)
Okay, let's increase people's safety welfare and you're guaranteeing people will stop sleeping while standing in the subway?
I have a irking suspicion it won't.
Yeah because that was totally his argument. Well done.
You can't follow logic can you?
South Koreans won't stop working hard and studying hard just because more safety nets are out there. It's a cultural perception that isn't created or solved by safety nets.
You took an anecdote about sleeping in subways and turned it into a strawman. Nobody is claiming that a lack of welfare-benefits is the only important factor. I don't think you even understand what logic is.
So you honestly belief that a lack of safety net has no effect on pressure to succeed at all? You can't see that the risk of having no money at all when you fail puts any additional stress on people? And you can't see that this additional stress can contribute to an increase in suicidal thoughts at all? Because that would be ridiculous.
An anecdote that people sleeping in subways is proof that people are working too hard because there isn't enough social nets? Laughable how Velr is trying to make that connection, also laughable how you are defending it.
Doesn't matter what I believe. The comparison is just stupid. How come countries with much fewer social nets have fewer suicide rates? I can name a few 3rd world countries with fewer suicide rates that have zero safety nets. Explain that one to me.
It's called using logic. If you assume one social theory to be correct, at least have the mental courtesy of testing that theory with other countries to see if that theory holds any weight. It doesn't.
Like another poster said, this article is left wing drivel trying to rile up an emotional response from the bleeding hearts (that don't like to think logically) so that western nations don't cut spending on social programs.
On April 07 2012 06:01 storkfan wrote: The GDP is kinda wrong really. Yes per capita it isnt great,but if you look at Seoul, GDP per capita there is very big, similar to other highly developed nations. Only the rural areas dragging the overall GDP down
That's the same for every country
The difference is Seoul is the 2nd biggest metropolis in the world, so it has vastly more of a wealth gathering advantage on other areas compared to what other countries' cities have.
What does that have to do with anything? the GDP of New York City dwarfs an equivalent number of people who live on the farms of Iowa.
EPT
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