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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
I don't think you understand how fragile the human head is, or how strong the ground is. I also don't think you understand what it's like to be in such a moment, where the only thoughts in your brain are panicked animal instinct that silence rationality and focus. Do I think Martin was attempting to end Zimmerman's life? Probably not, that depends if Zimmernan's testimony is true or not, but I also think Martin was probably caught up in the moment and didn't realize how much damage he could have been potentially doing. One of my middle school teachers died because her head hit a cement road at the wrong angle, it's serious shit and well it may be easy for you to compute this now while sitting on a chair and posting on a computer, it's not something you can just determine during the night when someones on top of you raining down blows.
And no, I haven't taken a beating like what Zimmerman took before and you probably haven't either judging by your ignorance.
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Zimmerman didnt require medical attention. That says it all. And I have been in fights and have gotten black eyes (Oh ya Zimmerman didnt have one of those) and bruises on various parts of my body. And never did I think my life was in danger and want a gun in my hand. It is just hard for me to believe, with so little damage, a killing is even in the realm of possibility.
Edit: Just read he had a black eye. But didn't see one in the photos. So I dunno.
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On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course.
It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life.
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I agree there is a large grey area. But when a gun comes into play i think "better safe than sorry" shouldn't apply. In my opinion of course.
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On July 19 2012 14:55 natrus wrote:
I agree there is a large grey area. But when a gun comes into play i think "better safe than sorry" shouldn't apply. In my opinion of course.
if we are to believe zimmerman, without provocation and in complete surprise, trayvon punched him hard enough to break his nose and knock him to the ground, and then began slamming his head into concrete. despite zimmerman yelling for help, trayvon continued to pummel him and then when trayvon saw his gun, he reached for it. those are the circumstances you have to consider when determining its self defense unless you completely disregard everything zimmerman says as false.
also, its irrelevant whether the individual is actually in danger, its whether they have a reasonable fear. hindsight is 20/20. its easy for everyone to monday morning quarterback his decision making, its much more difficult to make choices in the heat of the moment when you honestly believe you are about to die.
edit: also, bear in mind, he had seconds to react. he didnt have the luxury of reading threads, reading the news, etc. to form his opinions on what was or was not reasonable. flight or fight response, and he was pinned to the ground.
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On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life.
Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing.
This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life.
If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation.
Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid.
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When did i say it was a regular fight?
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On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid.
Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain.
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On July 19 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:55 natrus wrote:
I agree there is a large grey area. But when a gun comes into play i think "better safe than sorry" shouldn't apply. In my opinion of course. if we are to believe zimmerman, without provocation and in complete surprise, trayvon punched him hard enough to break his nose and knock him to the ground, and then began slamming his head into concrete. despite zimmerman yelling for help, trayvon continued to pummel him and then when trayvon saw his gun, he reached for it. those are the circumstances you have to consider when determining its self defense unless you completely disregard everything zimmerman says as false. also, its irrelevant whether the individual is actually in danger, its whether they have a reasonable fear. hindsight is 20/20. its easy for everyone to monday morning quarterback his decision making, its much more difficult to make choices in the heat of the moment when you honestly believe you are about to die. edit: also, bear in mind, he had seconds to react. he didnt have the luxury of reading threads, reading the news, etc. to form his opinions on what was or was not reasonable. flight or fight response, and he was pinned to the ground.
Without provocation and in complete surprise??? I thought that Zimmerman said there were words before the fighting. He wasn't sucker punched out of no where. And "he didnt have the luxury of reading threads, reading the news, etc. to form his opinions on what was or was not reasonable"?? Why would he? Or was this a sad attempt to try and belittle me?
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On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain.
even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page.
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On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page.
Here's a hypothetical situation:
Zimmerman pulls out gun, Martin wrestles it away and kills Zimmerman with it.
Does the same self-defense/stand your ground thing apply?
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On July 19 2012 23:06 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page. Here's a hypothetical situation: Zimmerman pulls out gun, Martin wrestles it away and kills Zimmerman with it. Does the same self-defense/stand your ground thing apply?
Depends. In this hypothetical situation, is Zimmerman being threatening with the gun? If he pointed the gun at Martin, Martin got the impression that Zimmerman wanted to kill him, wrested the gun away from him and shot Zimmerman with it, that sounds like self-defense to me, yeah.
If the hypothetical situation was of Zimmerman drawing his gun, keeping it at his side, identifying himself as being from the neighborhood watch and explaining to Martin that he should stay put because the cops are coming over, then Martin wrests the gun away and kills Zimmerman with it, then that doesn't sound like self-defense to me.
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On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page.
Given that you are a lawyer and the supposed neutral arbiter of information as OP, I'm surprised your bias towards Zimmerman's story is so transparent, especially considering the unlikelihood of you being paid by the defense. Why exactly is Zimmerman's unabated following of Martin after being told to cease and desist a "ridiculous" ground on which to show aggression on his part?
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On July 19 2012 23:17 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:06 Zorkmid wrote:On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page. Here's a hypothetical situation: Zimmerman pulls out gun, Martin wrestles it away and kills Zimmerman with it. Does the same self-defense/stand your ground thing apply? Depends. In this hypothetical situation, is Zimmerman being threatening with the gun? If he pointed the gun at Martin, Martin got the impression that Zimmerman wanted to kill him, wrested the gun away from him and shot Zimmerman with it, that sounds like self-defense to me, yeah. If the hypothetical situation was of Zimmerman drawing his gun, keeping it at his side, identifying himself as being from the neighborhood watch and explaining to Martin that he should stay put because the cops are coming over, then Martin wrests the gun away and kills Zimmerman with it, then that doesn't sound like self-defense to me.
Exactly, and the latter would qualify for second degree murder.
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On July 18 2012 00:30 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 00:18 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Totally unprovoked is a ridiculous standard. If I'm at a bar and I call someone an asshole and he charges me with a knife should I not be allowed to shoot him if I have gun?
Sure, but that not the correct comparison. If you punch that guy, is he allowed to kill you?
Sorry, my aim wasn't a direct comparison to the situation at hand, just to attack the standard the other guy put fourth. I'd say no, because just a simple punch wouldn't put me in imminent fear of death. However, some random guy I already thought was suspicious approaches me, we get into a scuffle and he's slamming my head into the pavement, then I would be more inclined to stop him at any means.
From my knowledge of the case it went Trayvon walking --> Zimmerman followed --> Trayvon approached/confronted Zimmerman --> they got into a fight where Trayvon slammed Zimmerman's head into the ground --> Zimmerman shot and killed him.
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On July 17 2012 23:58 HomeWorld wrote:
It may sound silly, but I'm quite fond of the current policy regarding firearms in my country. Not many ppl can wear firearms without a good reason and it shows, there are close to none incidents so far.
Maybe US should get over the "wild wild west era" and start banning firearms. Keep in mind, main weapons use is for killing not for defending .. :S
Gun control laws are largely dumb. Guns are legal to own/use here and there isn't a huge amount of people accidentally killing other people or accidental suicides relating to guns per year. A ton of people successfully defend themselves against attacks merely by that. If you research the topic at all the numbers are a bit surprising. I was against guns, then I looked up reasons for/against gun control laws and it turns out that it is all bullshit on the gun prohibition side.
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On July 19 2012 23:21 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:17 Zato-1 wrote:On July 19 2012 23:06 Zorkmid wrote:On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page. Here's a hypothetical situation: Zimmerman pulls out gun, Martin wrestles it away and kills Zimmerman with it. Does the same self-defense/stand your ground thing apply? Depends. In this hypothetical situation, is Zimmerman being threatening with the gun? If he pointed the gun at Martin, Martin got the impression that Zimmerman wanted to kill him, wrested the gun away from him and shot Zimmerman with it, that sounds like self-defense to me, yeah. If the hypothetical situation was of Zimmerman drawing his gun, keeping it at his side, identifying himself as being from the neighborhood watch and explaining to Martin that he should stay put because the cops are coming over, then Martin wrests the gun away and kills Zimmerman with it, then that doesn't sound like self-defense to me. Exactly, and the latter would qualify for second degree murder.
In the latter scenario if the killing was part of the struggle then it wouldn't be murder, it would be self defense. The only way I could see the second scenario resulting in a murder charge is if the fight was over, Martin had the gun and there was a space between them where Martin had complete control over the situation and still shot/killed Zimmerman. Even then I doubt any sort of murder charge would stick.
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On July 19 2012 23:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On July 19 2012 23:17 Zato-1 wrote:On July 19 2012 23:06 Zorkmid wrote:On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page. Here's a hypothetical situation: Zimmerman pulls out gun, Martin wrestles it away and kills Zimmerman with it. Does the same self-defense/stand your ground thing apply? Depends. In this hypothetical situation, is Zimmerman being threatening with the gun? If he pointed the gun at Martin, Martin got the impression that Zimmerman wanted to kill him, wrested the gun away from him and shot Zimmerman with it, that sounds like self-defense to me, yeah. If the hypothetical situation was of Zimmerman drawing his gun, keeping it at his side, identifying himself as being from the neighborhood watch and explaining to Martin that he should stay put because the cops are coming over, then Martin wrests the gun away and kills Zimmerman with it, then that doesn't sound like self-defense to me. Exactly, and the latter would qualify for second degree murder. In the latter scenario if the killing was part of the struggle then it wouldn't be murder, it would be self defense. The only way I could see the second scenario resulting in a murder charge is if the fight was over, Martin had the gun and there was a space between them where Martin had complete control over the situation and still shot/killed Zimmerman. Even then I doubt any sort of murder charge would stick.
The latter scenario is excessive force. Once you have wrestled the gun away, you have ceased the conflict. If the person who originally had the gun were to be stupid enough to try to attack you once you got the gun, then it may be able to be construed as self-defense. But in the latter scenario, it would still be excessive force as the gun was there as a deterrent of violence and not as a direct threat of violence.
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On July 19 2012 23:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 00:30 Zorkmid wrote:On July 18 2012 00:18 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Totally unprovoked is a ridiculous standard. If I'm at a bar and I call someone an asshole and he charges me with a knife should I not be allowed to shoot him if I have gun?
Sure, but that not the correct comparison. If you punch that guy, is he allowed to kill you? Sorry, my aim wasn't a direct comparison to the situation at hand, just to attack the standard the other guy put fourth. I'd say no, because just a simple punch wouldn't put me in imminent fear of death. However, some random guy I already thought was suspicious approaches me, we get into a scuffle and he's slamming my head into the pavement, then I would be more inclined to stop him at any means. From my knowledge of the case it went Trayvon walking --> Zimmerman followed --> Trayvon approached/confronted Zimmerman --> they got into a fight where Trayvon slammed Zimmerman's head into the ground --> Zimmerman shot and killed him.
Out of curiousity, are people willfully ignoring the fact that there was a woman on the phone with Martin, who described Martin trying to flee the situation ("lose him"), and Zimmermann approaching and confronting him afterwards? It's very clear to me that Zimmermann at least initiated the verbal component of the confrontation, and seems likely that he initiated physical contact as well.
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On July 19 2012 23:20 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 19 2012 15:26 BroodKingEXE wrote:On July 19 2012 15:08 Talack wrote:On July 19 2012 13:38 0neder wrote:On July 19 2012 12:55 natrus wrote:
Well his life was NOT in danger is my point. Never taken a beating before??? And from what I have seen. VERY small damage was done to Zimmerman's head. Do you really think Martin was going to end Zimmerman's life? Or even close?
With all due respect, it's a pretty gray area as to when your life becomes 'in danger.' If someone is being violent enough to make it ambiguous to someone else, then both parties are in grave danger. When it comes to self defense, the pragmatic policy is 'better safe than sorry,' within reason, of course. It is my understanding that many US soldiers experience unnecessary casualties for related reasons, because the lawyers have taken control of the DoD and now there are extremely complex and restrictive rules of engagement that are not necessarily practical, and which, if disobeyed, can make your government turn on you, but if heeded could endanger your own life. Yeah Natrus post is so full of ignorance it's amazing. This wasn't some bar-brawl or some high-school fight. This was some random dude that you're scared of already on the street starting to kick the shit out of you, regardless of his fighting experience that is a terrifying thing to be happening for anyone. You don't know if he has a knife, or a gun on him already. You don't know if he's going to be stopping or if he's really going to beat you to death. You don't know if someone is going to help you or if you won't be permanently injured for life, you're scared for your life. If this was in some back-alley and zimmerman was having the shit kicked out of him by some 6''6 280 pound guy and he saved himself by shooting the attacker then we'd all be praising his ability to save his life. But because hind-sight is 20-20 everyone knows exactly what "they would have done' in that situation. Saying that it was just some regular fight is just stupid, flat out stupid. Your wrong about that. Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin was minding his own business when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman started the engagement, so therefore it wasn't an act of self-defense. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, if Zimmerman went after him Martin was acting in self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun I feel is more suspicious (was he looking for trouble)? Than Martin walking around in the rain. even assuming that zimmerman was the aggressor for following him--something i find ridiculous given the circumstances--being the initial aggressor does not mean you cant claim self defense. if you want to educate yourself as to why, the jury instructions on this very issue are on the first page. Given that you are a lawyer and the supposed neutral arbiter of information as OP, I'm surprised your bias towards Zimmerman's story is so transparent, especially considering the unlikelihood of you being paid by the defense. Why exactly is Zimmerman's unabated following of Martin after being told to cease and desist a "ridiculous" ground on which to show aggression on his part?
i dont consider following someone an "aggressor" under self defense law--even assuming he was following trayvon, which he has denied. if you actually think about what people are saying then you will see how ridiculous it is as well. the mere act of following someone is not an aggressive act that triggers the right in another to attack you, which is what you are saying when you define him as an "aggressor." the problem may be that people are confusing a legal term with a lay term. if you read the jury instructions, you will understand better i hope.
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EPT
