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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
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On July 15 2013 12:42 Thor.Rush wrote:
I agree with the defense that if it were a Black man who shot Trayvon Martin, he would never had been tried. The people angry about the verdict seem to be very ignorant of the facts of this case. I don't know how anyone could watch the whole trial and not see how terrible the prosecutors were and how they completely lacked in evidence.
No, if it were a black man who shot Trayvon he would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY /sarcasm
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My greatest change during this case was my opinion of Zimmerman's lawyer. I started off looking down on him as incompetent after his knock-knock joke entrance. But I came to greatly respect him as a man of intelligence and integrity after following the case, and finally listening to him lambast the media and the prosecution for this whole charade. I wanted to cheer after that press conference.
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On July 15 2013 12:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 12:31 Budmandude wrote:On July 15 2013 12:23 coverpunch wrote:On July 15 2013 11:54 Hryul wrote:On July 15 2013 10:53 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 10:38 Artax wrote:On July 15 2013 10:33 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. It only even made national media because it was a "white" on black crime. All the other enormous amounts of black on X crime pass through daily news without many people paying much attention at all. But when a black person is the victim, suddenly its severely racist and the entire country needs to feel bad for the black community because they're still dealing with racism from us.... or something. Cant remember the last time i saw a jewish person walk down the road and start rioting on a german establishment. Jews have largely moved on from the past and established a successful foothold in the US, thereby ironically making them a target for attack once again. This is all part of the victim/oppressor dichotomy which is drilled into the minds of the public. We've gone from a nation which lauded success and therefore became successful, to a nation which incriminates success and therefore is on the decline globally. And that is exactly the point im trying to make. If this case was seen as every other case - an incident in which a young man lost his life, it wouldnt have even been a blip on the national radar. But the black community as a whole cannot move on from the past. Im not trying to be insensitive but much worse things have happened to groups of people (IE: Holocaust, Japanese occupation of Korea, Colonization of North America) and have been able to go on with their life without requiring an entire month to celebrate them, a channel, a college fund, or an award show. (All of which would be racist if they were for whites only, love the one way racism thats allowed) I'm sorry to bring this up from 2 pages of the past but these people haven't "moved on" so perfectly you would like. Oddly the Germans themselfs have developed quite an nazi trauma. there is quite a large anti-nazi movement in germany and it is quite dangerous (as a public person) to speak about the nazi time in any way but "nazi are pure evilz". at least in my perception the germans haven't moved on in a healthy way. Also there is a quite heavy grudge between the Japanese and the Korean (government). Everytime a J politicians visits one of the WW2 shrines, there is an outroar in the K (and chinese) public. I met several Js who "don't like" the Ks. (which is odd b/c the Ks where on the receiving end.) I haven't met that many Ks but relations are far from "normal". I can only speculate on native americans but afaik there are serious problems within their population like alcoholism. I was quite disappointed when I found out about these problems because I thought the world would have moved on after almost 70 years and the long peace that followed WW2. Oh boy was i naive. + Show Spoiler +I wasn't born in Germany just in case you wonder. -"Official" government outrage is very different from personal anger. -Not liking someone, even being a racist, is very different from wanting to hurt or kill them. -World War II outrage is unlike anything else, and we all hope that there won't be anything like it That said, the Martin family shouldn't be expected to "move on". They should still try to get their justice or some kind of closure, but unfortunately justice in this case does not involve life imprisonment for George Zimmerman. There is reasonable doubt that he wanted to kill Martin or was unjustified in doing so. For many people in this thread, I would hasten to say this does not imply in any way that Zimmerman is innocent or was completely justified. The Martins should and probably will file a wrongful death suit against him in civil court. Florida law gives Zimmerman immunity from civil suits. That's why MOM was so confident in the presser after the verdict on stopping any civil suits. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html Never underestimates the legal system's ability to ignore laws like this. Its the same way when a release of claims and liability does not totally protect from liability. The law does not(and cannot) prevent the Martins from filing a case and a Judge still needs to rule that the law applies to the case(basically, the Judge has to grant a motion to dismiss based on immunity). After that, the Martins can appeal the dismissal and the circle continues. Also, the Judge could be bias and not grant the dismissal, leaving Zimmerman to appeal the ruling, claiming he has immunity. People can always bring stupid, useless lawsuits that will be dismissed.
My bad, that naivete comes with being an engineer and I forget that in the legal system you can sue even if you have no grounds to do so under the law. I'm just used to laws always being followed and take that for granted (i.e. the laws of thermo).
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On July 15 2013 05:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
This is highly abnormal for a single man who wanted to be a cop but failed and suggests some kind of lingering obsession. I seriously hope you're not trying to argue this point.
What may appear to be lingering obsession to one person, could be seen as admirable determination by another. I really wonder if you're trolling. GZ wasn't single the night of the shooting. That he called his wife after the shooting was discussed during the trial.
http://marriage.about.com/od/infamous/p/Shellie-Dean-And-George-Zimmerman-Marriage-Profile.htm
If that website is wrong, feel free to correct, anyone.
Some posters really need to put on their thinking caps and try to start from scratch. Though it's not an order anyone has to follow, the president is also calling for calm reflection.
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On July 15 2013 13:25 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
This is highly abnormal for a single man who wanted to be a cop but failed and suggests some kind of lingering obsession. I seriously hope you're not trying to argue this point.
What may appear to be lingering obsession to one person, could be seen as admirable determination by another. I really wonder if you're trolling. GZ wasn't single the night of the shooting. That he called his wife after the shooting was discussed during the trial. http://marriage.about.com/od/infamous/p/Shellie-Dean-And-George-Zimmerman-Marriage-Profile.htmIf that website is wrong, feel free to correct, anyone. Some posters really need to put on their thinking caps and try to start from scratch. Though it's not an order anyone has to follow, the president is also calling for calm reflection.
zimmerman is and was married.
its not an order, its just a suggestion...it does not have the force of law, damnit!! ;-)
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Stuck on the "we don't need you to follow him" line like a broken record...
Any violence in the Z protests?
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We knew a fair bit of his past history. It's not exactly surprising that he had done stuff like that before, given all the other evidence.
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Huffington Post rooting on the rioters in Oakland. what a shitty rag of media.
Oakland's Trayvon Martin Protests Underscore City's History Of Racially Charged Violence (PHOTOS)
When protests in Oakland, Calif. took a violent turn Saturday night, it was nothing the city hadn't seen before.
More than a hundred demonstrators gathered downtown to march against the verdict in the George Zimmerman trial, which allowed a man who shot and killed an unarmed black teenager to walk free. But while other events that materialized across the country remained mostly peaceful, Oakland's were marred by window-smashing, flag burning and other forms of vandalism, including aggressive graffiti declaring "Kill Zimmerman" and "F*ck the Police."
Though Saturday's activity was relatively tame compared to past instances -- nobody was arrested or visibly harmed -- it's a story that unfolds time and again in the small port city on the San Francisco Bay.
"You can't go six months without something getting smashed," longtime Oakland resident Max Allstadt, who attended the protests, told The Huffington Post. "The people doing it have various ideological justifications, but outside the Twitter echo chamber they've created for themselves, there's not a lot of support."
Twitter lit up with commenters both encouraging and denouncing the destruction. "Do you know why some groups feel the need to march and break windows in #Oakland? Because nobody is listening to their demands for fairness," tweeted Steven Tavares, a reporter for the East Bay Citizen. "Not sure why Oakland business are suffering because of Florida's sh*tty laws, if you care to explain," responded @JulioD. Occupy Oakland attempted to settle the matter with the widely re-tweeted, "Calm down, twitter. A few broken windows in #Oakland is not a #riot, its a dance party."
In recent years in Oakland, events that have often started as peaceful marches have quickly turned aggressive. During an Occupy rally on May Day last year, authorities used tear gas to disperse rioters. In the months that preceded the May confrontation, the city had become a national symbol of violent clashes between protesters and police.
(Story continues below)
Trayvon Martin Protests In Oakland, Calif.
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According to Allstadt, the majority of Saturday's demonstrators weren't engaging in violent behavior, but they weren't trying to stop it, either. "It was a few small groups of people smashing stuff within a larger crowd," he said. "Some people were supportive, a few were absolutely condemning, but the biggest group was the one that doesn't smash but believes they shouldn't tell others to stop."
That Oakland residents would protest the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who died at the hand of a neighborhood watchman while returning from the store with little more than a bag of Skittles in his possession, comes as no surprise. The same weekend the jury handed George Zimmerman his not guilty verdict, the movie "Fruitvale Station" opened in theaters, telling the story of another unarmed black man killed by a gun-wielding authority figure -- but in Oakland.
"Fruitvale" chronicles the life and death of 22-year-old Oscar Grant, who was shot to death on an Oakland train platform by a transit officer in the early hours of New Year's Day, 2009. The officer who shot Grant served 11 months for involuntary manslaughter, a decision that sparked angry riots on the streets of the city.
"It’s a given that most of Oakland is mad about the Trayvon Martin verdict," Allstadt explained. "Nobody is cheering on George Zimmerman."
Oakland has a long history of racially-charged cases that involve shootings by officers, including those of Alan Blueford and Raheim Brown, black teenagers killed by police in 2012 and 2010, respectively.
"The thing about Oakland is that we’ve got nine, 10 names like [Trayvon's] that people know," Allstadt said. "We have a list of martyrs in this town, and everyone's talking about all of them right now."
Beyond the pockets of unrest, local civil rights activists are finding nonviolent ways to continue the conversation. Local shoe store SoleSpace is inviting residents, especially children, to participate in an "Art Wall 4 Justice" that will decorate its storefront.
And Richard Raya, executive director of Oakland-based nonprofit Youth Radio, is planning a series of public forums in which community members are encouraged to discuss Trayvon Martin, Oscar Grant and wider social justice issues. "Oakland is a special place," Raya told HuffPost. "It’s a place where people pay attention to what’s happening locally and nationally, and people act. It's who we are."
More protests are expected Sunday night and into the week. Still, Allstadt points out that the potential for violent activity, though perhaps isolated, is worth paying attention to. "I would agree that breaking things is a distraction," he said, "but it's happening in more places, and it's happening more intensely. It's a good barometer of just how mad people are."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/14/oakland-trayvon-martin_n_3595505.html#slide=2693489
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dont forget participating in organized fights ala fight club and attempting to buy a firearm.
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On July 15 2013 16:00 dAPhREAk wrote:dont forget participating in organized fights ala fight club and attempting to buy a firearm.
I missed those two... source?
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On July 15 2013 16:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 16:00 dAPhREAk wrote:dont forget participating in organized fights ala fight club and attempting to buy a firearm. I missed those two... source?
just search for it. these are the text messages that the prosecutor hid from the defense. these are the text messages for which the prosecutor is being investigated for discovery abuse and potential sanctions/disbarment.
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This kinda answers my question as to why someone would do anything but comply with someone who has a gun.
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On July 15 2013 16:38 Jisall wrote:This kinda answers my question as to why someone would do anything but comply with someone who has a gun.
Except Zimmerman's firearm was concealed. Why do people keep trying to hammer on that? It's just as bad as "HE WAS ORDERED BY DA POLICE TO STOP FOLLOWING HIM". No, just no.
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And why exactly does any of Martin's past history matter? Zimmerman did not know and could not have known any of those things about Martin the night of the shooting.
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On July 15 2013 17:05 Infundibulum wrote:And why exactly does any of Martin's past history matter? Zimmerman did not know and could not have known any of those things about Martin the night of the shooting.
It's irrelevant that Zimmerman didn't know that. Which is exactly why it was withheld in court. But it does show that Trayvon was involved in violent and illegal activities.
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On July 15 2013 17:06 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 17:05 Infundibulum wrote:And why exactly does any of Martin's past history matter? Zimmerman did not know and could not have known any of those things about Martin the night of the shooting. It's irrelevant that Zimmerman didn't know that. Which is exactly why it was withheld in court. But it does show that Trayvon was involved in violent and illegal activities.
....And? You haven't said why it matters - Zimmerman was the person on trial, not Martin.
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EPT
