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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
Protesters chanting "We want freedom!"
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On July 15 2013 11:37 asdfou420 wrote:
Protesters chanting "We want freedom!"
The freedom to assault strangers and never risk getting shot?
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"we are waiting for the new world order"
not sure he is using that term correctly.
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On July 15 2013 11:39 Artax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 11:37 asdfou420 wrote:
Protesters chanting "We want freedom!" The freedom to assault strangers and never risk getting shot?
The protest is a fucking joke, they even had a woman on the speaker trying to rally the crowd and turn it into feminist protest about rape
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On July 15 2013 10:53 Mania[K]al wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 10:38 Artax wrote:On July 15 2013 10:33 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. It only even made national media because it was a "white" on black crime. All the other enormous amounts of black on X crime pass through daily news without many people paying much attention at all. But when a black person is the victim, suddenly its severely racist and the entire country needs to feel bad for the black community because they're still dealing with racism from us.... or something. Cant remember the last time i saw a jewish person walk down the road and start rioting on a german establishment. Jews have largely moved on from the past and established a successful foothold in the US, thereby ironically making them a target for attack once again. This is all part of the victim/oppressor dichotomy which is drilled into the minds of the public. We've gone from a nation which lauded success and therefore became successful, to a nation which incriminates success and therefore is on the decline globally. And that is exactly the point im trying to make. If this case was seen as every other case - an incident in which a young man lost his life, it wouldnt have even been a blip on the national radar. But the black community as a whole cannot move on from the past. Im not trying to be insensitive but much worse things have happened to groups of people (IE: Holocaust, Japanese occupation of Korea, Colonization of North America) and have been able to go on with their life without requiring an entire month to celebrate them, a channel, a college fund, or an award show. (All of which would be racist if they were for whites only, love the one way racism thats allowed)
I'm sorry to bring this up from 2 pages of the past but these people haven't "moved on" so perfectly you would like. Oddly the Germans themselfs have developed quite an nazi trauma. there is quite a large anti-nazi movement in germany and it is quite dangerous (as a public person) to speak about the nazi time in any way but "nazi are pure evilz". at least in my perception the germans haven't moved on in a healthy way.
Also there is a quite heavy grudge between the Japanese and the Korean (government). Everytime a J politicians visits one of the WW2 shrines, there is an outroar in the K (and chinese) public. I met several Js who "don't like" the Ks. (which is odd b/c the Ks where on the receiving end.) I haven't met that many Ks but relations are far from "normal".
I can only speculate on native americans but afaik there are serious problems within their population like alcoholism.
I was quite disappointed when I found out about these problems because I thought the world would have moved on after almost 70 years and the long peace that followed WW2. Oh boy was i naive.
+ Show Spoiler +I wasn't born in Germany just in case you wonder.
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On July 15 2013 11:36 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 11:31 kmillz wrote:On July 15 2013 11:29 Jisall wrote:On July 15 2013 10:51 kmillz wrote:On July 15 2013 10:47 asdfou420 wrote:On July 15 2013 10:43 kmillz wrote:On July 15 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:On July 15 2013 10:01 Zenocide wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. Because only white people are racist...../sarcasm Can't remember ever hearing about a white person being asked to sit in the back of a bus. Or being pulled over for being white. Racism is not the same when it isn't institutionalized and perpetrated throughout generations.On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a
white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. Zimmerman is not white afaik. And again, a white 17 year old in similar circumstances would not be suspicious to Zimmerman - which is the greater injustice. Regardless of it all, if Zimmerman was a cop; the city police department would be busy preparing for a huge lawsuit. So what is the difference then? Are you saying that because of ancestors several generations back that being racist to someone who is black is worse than being racist to someone who is white? Racism towards whites isnt a thing Are you sure? Cleveland, Ohio. A white man on a moped accidentally bumped into a truck being driven by a black man. He fell over but was not injured. A crowd of 40 white people pulled the black driver from the truck and brutally beat him. One of them climbed in the truck and ran over the driver, killing him. The crowd cheered. Jacksonville, Florida. A group of four to six white men agreed that they would brutalize the next black person they saw walking down the street. That person turned out to be a mentally disabled 50-year-old, whom they beat and stomped into unconsciousness. He later died of his injuries.Are you surprised that you’ve never heard of these sickening murders based on racial hatred? You didn’t see saturation coverage on the news. You didn’t hear politicians decrying racism. You didn’t see a livid Jesse Jackson on CNN. Why? Because these acts of brutality didn’t happen exactly as I described above. Oh, they happened, all right. The only thing is, the races of the attackers and victims were reversed. That is, a white man was beaten and then crushed by a mob of 40 black people who were furious that a black man bumped into his truck.¹ In Jacksonville, it was a gang of black men who stomped a mentally-disabled man to death solely because he was white.² http://violenceagainstwhites.wordpress.com/the-hate-crimes-you-dont-hear-about/From my home city. I'm white, and I would not care to see that on the news. It is an isolated case, and the group of people who caused the crime should be held responsible. Their motive could be anything as motive is just an excuse to commit a crime. Race is an excuse just like any other motive. There is no reason to try and get people emotionally invested in crime by preying on their predisposition to racial drama. Also the Zimmerman Jury returned with a verdict in 24 hours. The decision was not hard. That in itself is telling. Looking objectively, there was no case against Zimmerman to begin with. The state was not even going to bring Zimmerman to trial, until the media blew the case up, at which point they had to. All the arguments against Zimmerman are based in emotion, which is a weak foundation for a case. I don't care to see it in the news either, just pointing out the double standard is all. I completely understand where you were coming from there, I felt like adding to it.
Ah ok, I kinda thought that but wasn't quite sure 
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We should all remember that justice is blind.
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On July 15 2013 11:32 dAPhREAk wrote:
so apparently the police pepper sprayed a bunch of them. and now the streamer is saying its because the marchers were trying to enter a rich part of town. lol.
This whole things resembles a bunch of people throwing a fit for not getting their way. I swear that the DOJ is just going through the motions to get people to calm down.
The DOJ press release response to the NAACP should have said:
"We are looking into this. When we say "looking into this", we mean that everyone who matters has gone home for the weekend and we are going to send a denial to this stupid request on Monday."
Still, I bet CNN's page views must be through the roof. They have 4 nearly identical stories running on the topic. Why write one complete story when you have sell 4 times the add space.
Gunna get the rest of my news on this subject from the BBC. They only report when shit changes.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I take it the protests are still ongoing? How many protests are currently going on? Anyone know?
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The Oakland police dispatch office said about 100 people protested, with some in the crowd breaking windows on businesses and starting small fires in the streets.
Local media reports said some Oakland marchers vandalized a police squad car and police formed a line to block the protesters' path.
The Oakland Tribune said some windows on the newspaper's downtown offices were broken, and footage from a television helicopter show people attempting to start fires in the street and spray painting anti-police graffiti.
Protesters also reportedly burned an American and a California state flag and spray painted Alameda County's Davidson courthouse.
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On July 15 2013 11:54 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 10:53 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 10:38 Artax wrote:On July 15 2013 10:33 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. It only even made national media because it was a "white" on black crime. All the other enormous amounts of black on X crime pass through daily news without many people paying much attention at all. But when a black person is the victim, suddenly its severely racist and the entire country needs to feel bad for the black community because they're still dealing with racism from us.... or something. Cant remember the last time i saw a jewish person walk down the road and start rioting on a german establishment. Jews have largely moved on from the past and established a successful foothold in the US, thereby ironically making them a target for attack once again. This is all part of the victim/oppressor dichotomy which is drilled into the minds of the public. We've gone from a nation which lauded success and therefore became successful, to a nation which incriminates success and therefore is on the decline globally. And that is exactly the point im trying to make. If this case was seen as every other case - an incident in which a young man lost his life, it wouldnt have even been a blip on the national radar. But the black community as a whole cannot move on from the past. Im not trying to be insensitive but much worse things have happened to groups of people (IE: Holocaust, Japanese occupation of Korea, Colonization of North America) and have been able to go on with their life without requiring an entire month to celebrate them, a channel, a college fund, or an award show. (All of which would be racist if they were for whites only, love the one way racism thats allowed) I'm sorry to bring this up from 2 pages of the past but these people haven't "moved on" so perfectly you would like. Oddly the Germans themselfs have developed quite an nazi trauma. there is quite a large anti-nazi movement in germany and it is quite dangerous (as a public person) to speak about the nazi time in any way but "nazi are pure evilz". at least in my perception the germans haven't moved on in a healthy way. Also there is a quite heavy grudge between the Japanese and the Korean (government). Everytime a J politicians visits one of the WW2 shrines, there is an outroar in the K (and chinese) public. I met several Js who "don't like" the Ks. (which is odd b/c the Ks where on the receiving end.) I haven't met that many Ks but relations are far from "normal". I can only speculate on native americans but afaik there are serious problems within their population like alcoholism. I was quite disappointed when I found out about these problems because I thought the world would have moved on after almost 70 years and the long peace that followed WW2. Oh boy was i naive. + Show Spoiler +I wasn't born in Germany just in case you wonder.
-"Official" government outrage is very different from personal anger.
-Not liking someone, even being a racist, is very different from wanting to hurt or kill them.
-World War II outrage is unlike anything else, and we all hope that there won't be anything like it
That said, the Martin family shouldn't be expected to "move on". They should still try to get their justice or some kind of closure, but unfortunately justice in this case does not involve life imprisonment for George Zimmerman. There is reasonable doubt that he wanted to kill Martin or was unjustified in doing so. For many people in this thread, I would hasten to say this does not imply in any way that Zimmerman is innocent or was completely justified. The Martins should and probably will file a wrongful death suit against him in civil court.
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On July 15 2013 12:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 11:32 dAPhREAk wrote:
so apparently the police pepper sprayed a bunch of them. and now the streamer is saying its because the marchers were trying to enter a rich part of town. lol. This whole things resembles a bunch of people throwing a fit for not getting their way. I swear that the DOJ is just going through the motions to get people to calm down. The DOJ press release response to the NAACP should have said: "We are looking into this. When we say "looking into this", we mean that everyone who matters has gone home for the weekend and we are going to send a denial to this stupid request on Monday." Still, I bet CNN's page views must be through the roof. They have 4 nearly identical stories running on the topic. Why write one complete story when you have sell 4 times the add space. Gunna get the rest of my news on this subject from the BBC. They only report when shit changes.
This is an unfortunate legacy of this case. The media isn't there to supply accurate stories or sanitized fact, they exist to get pageviews. And in this case, sensationalizing racial tensions makes for much more exciting stories.
My problem with it is that this basically eliminates any chance for a rational discussion of racism in the US for the 2010s at least. There is a serious problem with racial bias in the judicial system, but the death of Trayvon Martin does not embody those biases.
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On July 15 2013 12:22 Artax wrote:Show nested quote +The Oakland police dispatch office said about 100 people protested, with some in the crowd breaking windows on businesses and starting small fires in the streets.
Local media reports said some Oakland marchers vandalized a police squad car and police formed a line to block the protesters' path.
The Oakland Tribune said some windows on the newspaper's downtown offices were broken, and footage from a television helicopter show people attempting to start fires in the street and spray painting anti-police graffiti.
Protesters also reportedly burned an American and a California state flag and spray painted Alameda County's Davidson courthouse.
Yeah, those are some shitty protesters or just people looking to break stuff and blame it on being really upset about injustice. I think 72 hours and this will all blow over.
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The feds going after Zimmerman again, if they do, will be an incredible miscarriage of justice, whether he's convicted or not. I know that "dual sovereignty" doctrines excuse it legally, but regardless of your convictions on this case, double-jeopardy should be an inviolable principle. They will be trying him based on the same facts and evidence as the first time. Regardless of who makes the charge or what the charge is, that is an intolerable violation of our most basic legal principles. The government doesn't get "play until you win".
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On July 15 2013 12:23 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 11:54 Hryul wrote:On July 15 2013 10:53 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 10:38 Artax wrote:On July 15 2013 10:33 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. It only even made national media because it was a "white" on black crime. All the other enormous amounts of black on X crime pass through daily news without many people paying much attention at all. But when a black person is the victim, suddenly its severely racist and the entire country needs to feel bad for the black community because they're still dealing with racism from us.... or something. Cant remember the last time i saw a jewish person walk down the road and start rioting on a german establishment. Jews have largely moved on from the past and established a successful foothold in the US, thereby ironically making them a target for attack once again. This is all part of the victim/oppressor dichotomy which is drilled into the minds of the public. We've gone from a nation which lauded success and therefore became successful, to a nation which incriminates success and therefore is on the decline globally. And that is exactly the point im trying to make. If this case was seen as every other case - an incident in which a young man lost his life, it wouldnt have even been a blip on the national radar. But the black community as a whole cannot move on from the past. Im not trying to be insensitive but much worse things have happened to groups of people (IE: Holocaust, Japanese occupation of Korea, Colonization of North America) and have been able to go on with their life without requiring an entire month to celebrate them, a channel, a college fund, or an award show. (All of which would be racist if they were for whites only, love the one way racism thats allowed) I'm sorry to bring this up from 2 pages of the past but these people haven't "moved on" so perfectly you would like. Oddly the Germans themselfs have developed quite an nazi trauma. there is quite a large anti-nazi movement in germany and it is quite dangerous (as a public person) to speak about the nazi time in any way but "nazi are pure evilz". at least in my perception the germans haven't moved on in a healthy way. Also there is a quite heavy grudge between the Japanese and the Korean (government). Everytime a J politicians visits one of the WW2 shrines, there is an outroar in the K (and chinese) public. I met several Js who "don't like" the Ks. (which is odd b/c the Ks where on the receiving end.) I haven't met that many Ks but relations are far from "normal". I can only speculate on native americans but afaik there are serious problems within their population like alcoholism. I was quite disappointed when I found out about these problems because I thought the world would have moved on after almost 70 years and the long peace that followed WW2. Oh boy was i naive. + Show Spoiler +I wasn't born in Germany just in case you wonder. -"Official" government outrage is very different from personal anger. -Not liking someone, even being a racist, is very different from wanting to hurt or kill them. -World War II outrage is unlike anything else, and we all hope that there won't be anything like it That said, the Martin family shouldn't be expected to "move on". They should still try to get their justice or some kind of closure, but unfortunately justice in this case does not involve life imprisonment for George Zimmerman. There is reasonable doubt that he wanted to kill Martin or was unjustified in doing so. For many people in this thread, I would hasten to say this does not imply in any way that Zimmerman is innocent or was completely justified. The Martins should and probably will file a wrongful death suit against him in civil court. Florida law gives Zimmerman immunity from civil suits. That's why MOM was so confident in the presser after the verdict on stopping any civil suits.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html
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On July 15 2013 12:31 Budmandude wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 12:23 coverpunch wrote:On July 15 2013 11:54 Hryul wrote:On July 15 2013 10:53 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 10:38 Artax wrote:On July 15 2013 10:33 Mania[K]al wrote:On July 15 2013 09:57 AxUU wrote:
What I don't get is, why is a white person racist for killing a black person. But a black person is NOT a racist for killing a white person? This whole thing is ridiculous, and Zimmerman is innocent. It only even made national media because it was a "white" on black crime. All the other enormous amounts of black on X crime pass through daily news without many people paying much attention at all. But when a black person is the victim, suddenly its severely racist and the entire country needs to feel bad for the black community because they're still dealing with racism from us.... or something. Cant remember the last time i saw a jewish person walk down the road and start rioting on a german establishment. Jews have largely moved on from the past and established a successful foothold in the US, thereby ironically making them a target for attack once again. This is all part of the victim/oppressor dichotomy which is drilled into the minds of the public. We've gone from a nation which lauded success and therefore became successful, to a nation which incriminates success and therefore is on the decline globally. And that is exactly the point im trying to make. If this case was seen as every other case - an incident in which a young man lost his life, it wouldnt have even been a blip on the national radar. But the black community as a whole cannot move on from the past. Im not trying to be insensitive but much worse things have happened to groups of people (IE: Holocaust, Japanese occupation of Korea, Colonization of North America) and have been able to go on with their life without requiring an entire month to celebrate them, a channel, a college fund, or an award show. (All of which would be racist if they were for whites only, love the one way racism thats allowed) I'm sorry to bring this up from 2 pages of the past but these people haven't "moved on" so perfectly you would like. Oddly the Germans themselfs have developed quite an nazi trauma. there is quite a large anti-nazi movement in germany and it is quite dangerous (as a public person) to speak about the nazi time in any way but "nazi are pure evilz". at least in my perception the germans haven't moved on in a healthy way. Also there is a quite heavy grudge between the Japanese and the Korean (government). Everytime a J politicians visits one of the WW2 shrines, there is an outroar in the K (and chinese) public. I met several Js who "don't like" the Ks. (which is odd b/c the Ks where on the receiving end.) I haven't met that many Ks but relations are far from "normal". I can only speculate on native americans but afaik there are serious problems within their population like alcoholism. I was quite disappointed when I found out about these problems because I thought the world would have moved on after almost 70 years and the long peace that followed WW2. Oh boy was i naive. + Show Spoiler +I wasn't born in Germany just in case you wonder. -"Official" government outrage is very different from personal anger. -Not liking someone, even being a racist, is very different from wanting to hurt or kill them. -World War II outrage is unlike anything else, and we all hope that there won't be anything like it That said, the Martin family shouldn't be expected to "move on". They should still try to get their justice or some kind of closure, but unfortunately justice in this case does not involve life imprisonment for George Zimmerman. There is reasonable doubt that he wanted to kill Martin or was unjustified in doing so. For many people in this thread, I would hasten to say this does not imply in any way that Zimmerman is innocent or was completely justified. The Martins should and probably will file a wrongful death suit against him in civil court. Florida law gives Zimmerman immunity from civil suits. That's why MOM was so confident in the presser after the verdict on stopping any civil suits. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html
Never underestimates the legal system's ability to ignore laws like this. Its the same way when a release of claims and liability does not totally protect from liability. The law does not(and cannot) prevent the Martins from filing a case and a Judge still needs to rule that the law applies to the case(basically, the Judge has to grant a motion to dismiss based on immunity). After that, the Martins can appeal the dismissal and the circle continues. Also, the Judge could be bias and not grant the dismissal, leaving Zimmerman to appeal the ruling, claiming he has immunity.
People can always bring stupid, useless lawsuits that will be dismissed.
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On July 15 2013 12:31 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
The feds going after Zimmerman again, if they do, will be an incredible miscarriage of justice, whether he's convicted or not. I know that "dual sovereignty" doctrines excuse it legally, but regardless of your convictions on this case, double-jeopardy should be an inviolable principle. They will be trying him based on the same facts and evidence as the first time. Regardless of who makes the charge or what the charge is, that is an intolerable violation of our most basic legal principles. The government doesn't get "play until you win".
I don't think anyone is expecting them to. Its all PR and politics now, not real law. It about appeasing the side the lost and getting the media to move on from the issue.
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I agree with the defense that if it were a Black man who shot Trayvon Martin, he would never had been tried. The people angry about the verdict seem to be very ignorant of the facts of this case. I don't know how anyone could watch the whole trial and not see how terrible the prosecutors were and how they completely lacked in evidence.
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On July 15 2013 09:20 dAPhREAk wrote:
has anything happened in Florida? i havent heard anything about sanford or miami. seems weird that protests and riots are taking place where the people are unaffected personally.
Well, one possible reason is that self-defense by using a gun on an unarmed attacker was upheld in this case.
No one wants to be the dumbass who decides to beat down the guy packing a .44 right after another guy was just acquitted for using his gun to protect himself from a beat-down.
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EPT
