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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46263 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:09 Infundibulum wrote: ....And? You haven't said why it matters - Zimmerman was the person on trial, not Martin. I'm not saying TM's prior problems were useful for the trial. I was just surprised that TM had such a background, considering he was consistently revered as being a stand-up, innocent individual. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:09 Infundibulum wrote: ....And? You haven't said why it matters - Zimmerman was the person on trial, not Martin. It was actually potentially relevant to show physical capability. It wasn't permitted in because of authentication issues. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:09 Infundibulum wrote: ....And? You haven't said why it matters - Zimmerman was the person on trial, not Martin. It potentially matters when the prosecutor heavily suggested he was a "kid," as to why Zimmerman reasonable couldn't have feared for his life, showing off the old photo of him from years ago and so on to make him seem as harmless as possible. If you can counter that with something like he fought a lot (just an example) then that could be relevant. | ||
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FatChicksUnited
Canada214 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:09 Infundibulum wrote: ....And? You haven't said why it matters - Zimmerman was the person on trial, not Martin. 1) The burglary part is not directly related to his guilt in the eyes of the law. In terms of public opinion, if knowledge of Trayvon's alleged burglary history were more widely known it would have lent some credence to Zimmerman's claim that he followed Trayvon because he saw Trayvon acting suspiciously on that night. At least then he might not be labelled a racist profiler. However, Trayvon was only alleged to have done those things and any evidence of his activities and the alleged cover-up are long destroyed by now, so this is really moot. 2) More directly related to the question of Zimmerman's guilt, evidence as to Trayvon's fighting history, skills, and style would have helped the jury decide material questions such as: a) which of the two were more likely to have started the fight. Zimmerman claims Trayvon sucker punched him on the nose and mounted him, a tactic Trayvon alluded to in his texts. b) which of the two were more likely to have been winning the fight at the time of the gunshot. Trayvon was a fairly experienced fighter, to the point where his brother was asking him for informal teaching, and claimed to have won several fights. Zimmerman was "soft", according to his MMA teacher. c) credibility of Zimmerman's version of the fight. Trayvon described in his texts a fight where he lost because he was knocked to the ground and mounted and promised to learn from the fight. | ||
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czylu
477 Posts
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/judge-tosses-trayvons-mma-texts/ kinda gives you an idea who trayvon martin is. It is relevant in this case b/c of self defense. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm not saying TM's prior problems were useful for the trial. I was just surprised that TM had such a background, considering he was consistently revered as being a stand-up, innocent individual. It is unfortunate, but i don't know if it's surprising given his messed up family and home life situation, which leads to trouble at school and so on. That kind of thing is compounded too when you're a teenager... e.g. my home life was fine and i still did drugs with friends, skipped class sometimes, got drunk on shitty liquors on weekend nights - all standard shit, and I grew up in a middle class white area which means I was lucky enough to be able to do those things and have no real lasting consequences. If i was poor/a minority/had a shit family things might not be so lucky. I have a suspicion, that people like to bring up TM's background as a troubled kid because they think it somehow justifies him being dead, and it reinforces the racist idea of black people being scary thugs. It is really unfortunate that it got dragged into the conversation of the case, seeing as how GZ was the one that actually killed someone, and also had a fairly noteworthy history: police academy reject cum neighborhood watch captain, frequent 911 caller, obsessed with black people. But I seem to hear way less about that than whether or not TM smoked weed or stole. | ||
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FatChicksUnited
Canada214 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:30 Infundibulum wrote: It is unfortunate, but i don't know if it's surprising given his messed up family and home life situation, which leads to trouble at school and so on. That kind of thing is compounded too when you're a teenager... e.g. my home life was fine and i still did drugs with friends, skipped class sometimes, got drunk on shitty liquors on weekend nights - all standard shit, and I grew up in a middle class white area which means I was lucky enough to be able to do those things and have no real lasting consequences. If i was poor/a minority/had a shit family things might not be so lucky. I have a suspicion, that people like to bring up TM's background as a troubled kid because they think it somehow justifies him being dead, and it reinforces the racist idea of black people being scary thugs. It is really unfortunate that it got dragged into the conversation of the case, seeing as how GZ was the one that actually killed someone, and also had a fairly noteworthy history: police academy reject cum neighborhood watch captain, frequent 911 caller, obsessed with black people. But I seem to hear way less about that than whether or not TM smoked weed or stole. Nobody here thinks it justifies Trayvon being dead (at least I hope not). Aside from the burglary and his attacking the bus driver, it's mostly normal adolescent male activity. What 16-year old male doesn't like guns and fighting, and tried a little weed? He had many good attributes as well, volunteer work, and his friendship with Rachel when nobody else was nice to her shows he wasn't a complete thug. Rumors are he was looking into SATs and wanted to go to college. He wasn't a hopeless kid or a deadlock to be a future drug dealer, just someone trying to figure things out. Like you pointed out, he had a broken family. Why I believe his past is at least partially relevant is it shows that Zimmerman's account of the incident is at least consistent with Trayvon's temperament and fighting skills. *edit*: Clarifying: nobody thinks Trayvon deserved to die just because he was a thug. But when he put Zimmerman in the position that he did, Zimmerman was left with little choice but to shoot. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:28 FatChicksUnited wrote: 1) The burglary part is not directly related to his guilt in the eyes of the law. In terms of public opinion, if knowledge of Trayvon's alleged burglary history were more widely known it would have lent some credence to Zimmerman's claim that he followed Trayvon because he saw Trayvon acting suspiciously on that night. At least then he might not be labelled a racist profiler. However, Trayvon was only alleged to have done those things and any evidence of his activities and the alleged cover-up are long destroyed by now, so this is really moot. 2) More directly related to the question of Zimmerman's guilt, evidence as to Trayvon's fighting history, skills, and style would have helped the jury decide material questions such as: a) which of the two were more likely to have started the fight. Zimmerman claims Trayvon sucker punched him on the nose and mounted him, a tactic Trayvon alluded to in his texts. b) which of the two were more likely to have been winning the fight at the time of the gunshot. Trayvon was a fairly experienced fighter, to the point where his brother was asking him for informal teaching, and claimed to have won several fights. Zimmerman was "soft", according to his MMA teacher. c) credibility of Zimmerman's version of the fight. Trayvon described in his texts a fight where he lost because he was knocked to the ground and mounted and promised to learn from the fight. Yeah there's not a lot of evidence (hence the verdict) but TM being on top of GZ before being shot is probably what happened. The gray area not focused on was what lead up to the fight, I think, and that is GZ's intent when approaching Trayvon. The guys not a cop, can't make arrests, doesn't have any way of restraining TM, just goes with his gun in the waistband. What was he expecting/trying to do? AFAIK we only have GZ's testimony about that portion of the incident and who started the fight, since the only other person who could accurately dispute is dead. We can speculate from the texts who might have punched first but i don't think that brings anything beyond the level of reasonable doubt. | ||
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FatChicksUnited
Canada214 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:37 Infundibulum wrote: Yeah there's not a lot of evidence (hence the verdict) but TM being on top of GZ before being shot is probably what happened. The gray area not focused on was what lead up to the fight, I think, and that is GZ's intent when approaching Trayvon. The guys not a cop, can't make arrests, doesn't have any way of restraining TM, just goes with his gun in the waistband. What was he expecting/trying to do? AFAIK we only have GZ's testimony about that portion of the incident and who started the fight, since the only other person who could accurately dispute is dead. We can speculate from the texts who might have punched first but i don't think that brings anything beyond the level of reasonable doubt. What was George trying to do? Here's the thing. Most people aren't aggressive, most people aren't looking for fights. George had tracked and reported many other suspicious individuals. 95% of them turned out to be just neighbors walking around. The other 5% didn't turn violent, they just left. I'll bet some of those people confronted George. Maybe they had a quick conversation. Nothing ever happened. I'll bet these situations happen every day, all over America, and a very very small percentage of these confrontations ever turn violent. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
Some statements in this thread really show me that the US American way to back your own prejudices up is to dig as long in someones private life until you find something to make this person look evil. If you put this in context with the NSA scandal, it strongly looks to me like the time of witch hunts - you can find SOMETHING in everyones private life. Sorry if this was too off topic but some of the comments here were just disgusting. If you want something to feel good/bad about the verdict: This guy had his face and name shown in newspapers/tv shows world wide. Do you really think he will live a happy life after the verdict? He is pretty much fucked up, even if he'd decide to live at a foreign place, e.g. here in Austria people would recognize and probably beat the shit out of him. And now it's time to head over to the gun control thread and make sure that such things won't happen again, peace out, everybody! | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:52 Prugelhugel wrote: I didn't really follow the case and won't make a statement on how I think about the verdict, but I have to say one thing: Some statements in this thread really show me that the US American way to back your own prejudices up is to dig as long in someones private life until you find something to make this person look evil. If you put this in context with the NSA scandal, it strongly looks to me like the time of witch hunts - you can find SOMETHING in everyones private life. Sorry if this was too off topic but some of the comments here were just disgusting. If you want something to feel good/bad about the verdict: This guy had his face and name shown in newspapers/tv shows world wide. Do you really think he will live a happy life after the verdict? He is pretty much fucked up, even if he'd decide to live at a foreign place, e.g. here in Austria people would recognize and probably beat the shit out of him. And now it's time to head over to the gun control thread and make sure that such things won't happen again, peace out, everybody! Bringing gun control into this is off-topic, however the other things you mentioned were on topic. In the U.S there is no prejudice. Most people heard the verdict, and trust that the jury made the right decision based on the facts. It took them less then 24 hours to deliberate, the case had to be open and close. The protests and riots you see are a minority of the population who view this case threw the lens of racism. Zimmerman has been told to wear bulletproof vests outdoors now, death threats have been made to him over twitter. To be honest, one will probably back it up. Regardless of whether Zimmerman was at fault, his life is destroyed. The media placed alot of hype into this case, and as such there are people who would be disappointed no matter what the verdict because of their preconceived notions. Also going to your point about personal life choices. It is pretty much a fact that nobody is perfect. Everybody makes questionable choices. Obama and Clinton both admitted to smoking pot, George Bush had some mad parties back in college. And we elect these people to lead us. People understand mistakes, the points in this thread you dislike are there in order to dull the poster child kid image that is the dominant viewing of Trayvon. It is a combination of the poster child image, and the racial undertones portrayed by the media that made this case into the national phenomenon that it become, and play a major role in why there are protests and riots occuring in the U.S. right now. | ||
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BrainPaste
United States18 Posts
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On July 15 2013 18:04 BrainPaste wrote: It is sad to see that people are so caught up in this particular case when there are literally revolutions and wars happening around the world, and the American media chooses to force feed us this case where one person died. And nobody talks about the bankers and the federal reserve which should be audited, which is the one thing that is actually negatively affecting each and every one of you. This is no different from wanting to talk about all the great games and high quality matches at MLG Anaheim and finding out that actually most people just want to complain about Naniwa/Polt. Or how much of the conversation in WCS America and WCS Europe is complaining about too many Koreans, with very little discussion about actual StarCraft. Sorry but this is what people want to talk about. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On July 15 2013 18:04 BrainPaste wrote: It is sad to see that people are so caught up in this particular case when there are literally revolutions and wars happening around the world, and the American media chooses to force feed us this case where one person died. And nobody talks about the bankers and the federal reserve which should be audited, which is the one thing that is actually negatively affecting each and every one of you. You might like it here more.  | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On July 15 2013 18:04 BrainPaste wrote: It is sad to see that people are so caught up in this particular case when there are literally revolutions and wars happening around the world, and the American media chooses to force feed us this case where one person died. And nobody talks about the bankers and the federal reserve which should be audited, which is the one thing that is actually negatively affecting each and every one of you. This is the 'Shooting of Trayvon Martin' discussion thread, not the 'bankers and the federal reserve' thread. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
And since most americans like their guns, cases like this have to be considered a side effect of lack of gun-control. Law suggests to get a gun an defend yourself. You can make up millions of scenarios in wich a gun would "safe the innocent" but death of innocent is quite permanent consequence from a quick trigger finger. Also it is pretty helpful for them that the whole public discussion cricles arround "racism". I can´t beleive some twitter posts about "injustice". GZ was found "not-guilty". His murder was sanctioned by law. He wasn´t charged because of his actions or evidence, but because of public-pressure. Persecution was plainly political. The angry mob wants so see him hanged, and still does. Sad thing, he has to go out in amored-vest and maybe even carrying a gun, afraid of someone attacking him. He is free by law to shoot anyone aproaching him, because of the public threats that are made against him. (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IfIEverSeeZimmerman&src=tyah) There is at least a social-media witchhunt on GZ going on. His brother statet "he wears bullet-proof west all the time, and he has all reasons to stay armed | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12491 Posts
Was pretty sad to hear given what I've read in the thread, really. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On July 15 2013 17:58 Jisall wrote: Bringing gun control into this is off-topic, however the other things you mentioned were on topic. No gun control is completely on topic. Zimmerman will get his gun back despite having proven that he misused it, allegedly because he fears for his life. But he could easily request a new name and move to another state, hide for a few months and his life would be the same again. PS : Though perhaps he didn't mis-use it and guns are actually made to kill people and in that way he did use it perfectly. On July 15 2013 20:40 Nebuchad wrote: Swiss and french media are doing a really shitty job of covering the case. French at least acknowledged that GZ could have been innocent, but they didn't expand at all on his version of the story and just sided directly with the manifestants. Especially the swiss media treated this almost as a failure of the justice system. Was pretty sad to hear given what I've read in the thread, really. That's cultural. GZ is guilty if we use our own laws. Thus it is inconceivable that he has been released. As for the coveraged in itself, I would argue that the outcome of such a ludicrous trial is of limited consequences for both of these countries. Article 122-25 du Code Pénal Français : N'est pas pénalement responsable la personne qui, devant une atteinte injustifiée envers elle-même ou autrui, accomplit, dans le même temps, un acte commandé par la nécessité de la légitime défense d'elle-même ou d'autrui, sauf s'il y a disproportion entre les moyens de défense employés et la gravité de l'atteinte. N'est pas pénalement responsable la personne qui, pour interrompre l'exécution d'un crime ou d'un délit contre un bien, accomplit un acte de défense, autre qu'un homicide volontaire, lorsque cet acte est strictement nécessaire au but poursuivi dès lors que les moyens employés sont proportionnés à la gravité de l'infraction. Is not criminally liable who, faced with unjustified attack to oneself or others, accomplishes at the same time an act ordered by the necessity of self-defense of herself or others, except when there is disproportion between the means of defense used and the gravity of the infringement. Is not criminally liable who, to stop the execution of a crime or an offense against property, commits an act of defense, other than murder, if the act is strictly necessary for the purpose acknowledged that the means used are proportionate to the seriousness of the offense. PS : I should add that other than murder doesn't mean that every violent aggression followed by death is a considered a murder. There must have proof of an intention to give death or be qualified as such by the judge. Had Zimmerman been judged in France, he would probably not have been able to use the excuses of self-defense in front of a jury - who would have seen his actions as deliberate, notably his refusal to listen to the police. But I can't express an opinion about the exact qualification of his actions under French laws though. | ||
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