EPTShooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 453
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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:49 farvacola wrote: Maybe this says something about the college I went to and the people I consort with, but where I come from, "getting your ass beat" looks way worse than what happened to Zimmerman, which looks more like, "got his nose broken and a few scrapes.". Oh well. Perhaps we can all move on soon enough. I completely agree! I'm not someone to question a man's fear of his own life, but I've been ASS BEAT before and I woke up sore and without my wallet. This is how it goes. But if you're a mewling coward, yes, you just shoot him | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
One year ago, I had the impression that TM was a 12 year old kid with a bag of skittles who basically got shot in the back on a dark day. While in the meantime, GZ fell down after he killed the kid and lightly bruised his nose. Man, that guy was either going to have life, or death penalty. What I read (the conclusion of the trial) left me floored. What, TM is a 17 year old, 160 pound teenager, who was on top of GZ and punching him? The description I got from major media outlets at the time of the event are so far from reality that I am simply flabbergasted. | ||
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Boiler Bandsman
United States391 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Polls spoilered: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Just looking at the arguments and facts presented in the trial... I agree with the acquittal- the prosecution failed at establishing guilt. (131) Should be manslaughter- the prosecution demonstrated he was guilty of at least this. (7) Should be murder- the prosecution demonstrated he was guilty of this. (4) Other (3) 145 total votes Your vote: Just looking at the arguments and facts presented in the trial... (Vote): I agree with the acquittal- the prosecution failed at establishing guilt. and Poll: Regardless of the verdict, which do you feel is most accurate? GZ is truly innocent. (89) GZ truly committed manslaughter. (19) Other (13) GZ truly committed murder. (7) 128 total votes Your vote: Regardless of the verdict, which do you feel is most accurate? (Vote): GZ is truly innocent. I think these polls are an excellent encapsulation of the fact that the best-informed people agreed with the verdict. This thread has been extremely well-done, and the discussion has made anyone who participated (and voted) better-informed about this case. Meanwhile, the drive-by types who paid no attention at all between the original sensational story and the verdict are all over Twitter advocating murder and mayhem. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:49 farvacola wrote: Maybe this says something about the college I went to and the people I consort with, but where I come from, "getting your ass beat" looks way worse than what happened to Zimmerman, which looks more like, "got his nose broken and a few scrapes.". Oh well. Perhaps we can all move on soon enough. One can only hope. Personally, I think Zimmerman is an idiot. He had the responsibility of authority in this situation, meaning he had the responsibility of deescalation, but chose to ignore that. I don't think he's guilty of manslaughter, because his life was in danger (to the best of our knowledge), but his actions leading up to it deserve serious reprimand. The issue is that there is no way to reprimand him outside of this case, which could only end in 2 very extreme ways. Maybe there's some room for this in a civil case though, but I have my doubts there as well. | ||
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Boiler Bandsman
United States391 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:00 slyboogie wrote: I completely agree! I'm not someone to question a man's fear of his own life, but I've been ASS BEAT before and I woke up sore and without my wallet. This is how it goes. But if you're a mewling coward, yes, you just shoot him GZ's head was being beaten repeatedly into the goddamn concrete. There was physical evidence backing this up, if not outright confirming it. Martin was using lethal force. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:46 slyboogie wrote: Look, I get it. George Zimmerman was getting his ass beat. I get it. But let's perform a though experiment. Let's say George Zimmerman was beaten to death by Trayvon Martin. Would you buy the defense that Martin saw Zimmerman reach for his gun? Is that not enough to make him fear for his own life? Are you saying, whoever arose out of that titanic struggle between overweight gun toting neighborhood watchman and 17 year old black teenager, would be found innocent in a court of law? No, because there is another party in this. There is a witness who say Trayvon on top beating on Zimmerman. This man called for Trayvon to stop. If Trayvon stops and then Zimmerman shoots him you have murder because Zimmerman wasn't in danger If Trayvon stops, Zimmerman gos for his gun and Trayvon punches him in the face and kills him then you can argue Trayvon was acting in self defense. If Trayvon doesn't stop and Zimmerman shoots him you have a case for self defense from Zimmerman If Trayvon doesn't stop and Zimmerman doesn't shoot him Zimmerman ends up in whatever state he would be when the police finally arrive. The fact that someone came to try and break up the fight 40? seconds before the shooting changes the entire situation. Do i agree that Zimmerman should have shot Trayvon? no, but according to the law he was in his right to do so. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:01 fezvez wrote: I have to say that I am pretty ashamed that I basically understood nothing of the case. One year ago, I had the impression that TM was a 12 year old kid with a bag of skittles who basically got shot in the back on a dark day. While in the meantime, GZ fell down after he killed the kid and lightly bruised his nose. Man, that guy was either going to have life, or death penalty. What I read (the conclusion of the trial) left me floored. What, TM is a 17 year old, 160 pound teenager, who was on top of GZ and punching him? The description I got from major media outlets at the time of the event are so far from reality that I am simply flabbergasted. Welcome to dealing with the Media. It's always a question of "what actually important information did you leave out?". In this case, quite a lot. In the USA, "journalist" is in competition with "lawyer" for least-trustworthy occupation. There's a reason why. | ||
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Oleo
Netherlands279 Posts
In the end GZ was the original agressor and I think there should be some accountablility for his actions, which got a 17-year old killed, that evening even if he has the law on his side, although self defense has i.m.o. not been sufficiently proven, based on the evidence presented. In the end no system is perfect and sometimes some people who we may feel should not go free go free, be it because of imperfect laws or an imperfect system. | ||
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Robotix
United States51 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:07 Taf the Ghost wrote: In the USA, "journalist" is in competition with "lawyer" for least-trustworthy occupation. There's a reason why. No. "Journalist" and "lawyer" are in competition for the second least-trustworthy occupation. "Politician" is far ahead of them in first. Other than that, I agree completely. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
How injured Zimmerman was is irrelevant, what's important is how he was receiving the wounds and the likelihood of serious injuries being developed if the situation continued - that's why they had witnesses on to verify that having your head slammed down is extremely dangerous. | ||
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farvacola
United States18825 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:04 Boiler Bandsman wrote: GZ's head was being beaten repeatedly into the goddamn concrete. There was physical evidence backing this up, if not outright confirming it. Martin was using lethal force. Those injuries are not consistent with lethal force. Not in the least. I'm not saying that Zimmerman could not have reasonably been in fear for his life, I'm saying that a broken nose and slight lacerations are not "ass beat" material, and that Zimmeran's cowardice ended up a boon to his case. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:15 farvacola wrote: Those injuries are not consistent with lethal force. Not in the least. Having someone on the ground and taking swings at them is "lethal force". One solid connection to the head, which hits the pavement and you can quite easily kill someone. It's the same reason that using a knife is "lethal force", even if you have to connect to one of a few spots to actually kill someone. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:01 fezvez wrote: What I read (the conclusion of the trial) left me floored. What, TM is a 17 year old, 160 pound teenager, who was on top of GZ and punching him? The description I got from major media outlets at the time of the event are so far from reality that I am simply flabbergasted. Yes. He was born in 1995. There's also nothing unusual about fighting back when a man has been chasing you at night with no attempt to hide the fact. | ||
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farvacola
United States18825 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:17 Taf the Ghost wrote: Having someone on the ground and taking swings at them is "lethal force". One solid connection to the head, which hits the pavement and you can quite easily kill someone. It's the same reason that using a knife is "lethal force", even if you have to connect to one of a few spots to actually kill someone. Look, it's very simple. If Trayvon had the upper hand for even half as much time as John Good says while being proficient in hand to hand combat, Zimmerman might never have even gotten to his gun at all and Zimmerman's face and head would look significantly worse. If the time frames presented are correct, Trayvon had no idea how to throw a punch and had very little chance of actually hurting Zimmerman mortally. Edit: Just so it's clear, I'm not arguing that the lack of severity necessarily changes the not guilty verdict; I think a good case can be made for Zimmmerman being genuinely afraid for his life. But, given what we know about his experience with fighting, there is a good chance he vastly overestimated his opponent. | ||
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ConGee
318 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:18 DemigodcelpH wrote: Yes. He was born in 1995. There's also nothing unusual about fighting back when a man has been chasing you at night with no attempt to hide the fact. There's a huge difference between fighting back and escalating the confrontation to the point where the other person fears for their life. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:19 farvacola wrote: Look, it's very simple. If Trayvon had the upper hand for even half as much time as John Good says while being proficient in hand to hand combat, Zimmerman might never have even gotten to his gun at all and Zimmerman's face and head would look significantly worse. If the time frames presented are correct, Trayvon had no idea how to throw a punch and had very little chance of actually hurting Zimmerman mortally. Thank you for being able to calmly relying these facts while your head isn't being hit. You can hardly fault Zimmerman for not correctly reading the situation while hes down there. | ||
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Boiler Bandsman
United States391 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:19 farvacola wrote: Look, it's very simple. If Trayvon had the upper hand for even half as much time as John Good says while being proficient in hand to hand combat, Zimmerman might never have even gotten to his gun at all and Zimmerman's face and head would look significantly worse. If the time frames presented are correct, Trayvon had no idea how to throw a punch and had very little chance of actually hurting Zimmerman mortally. + Show Spoiler + So your argument is based on what? Your belief that the evidence (the eyewitness testimony) is wrong because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived narrative? Your beef is not with opinions, it's with basic facts in evidence. EDIT: You ninja edited me.  The fact remains that TM was on top, doing something that very realistically could have killed or maimed GZ. The fact that it did not happen is irrelevant and not conclusive proof of the contention that he was not using lethal force. | ||
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farvacola
United States18825 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:22 Gorsameth wrote: Thank you for being able to calmly relying these facts while your head isn't being hit. You can hardly fault Zimmerman for not correctly reading the situation while hes down there. Again, let me repeat what I added in above, because I'm not arguing that Zimmerman necessarily acted negligently as opposed to simply being a coward. You are right, properly estimating your opponent during a conflict is something not many people without experience can do, and this is why, along the contours of the law, Zimmerman has a good legal claim of self-defense. That does not necessitate any degree of severity on the part of his being beat. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:49 farvacola wrote: Maybe this says something about the college I went to and the people I consort with, but where I come from, "getting your ass beat" looks way worse than what happened to Zimmerman, which looks more like, "got his nose broken and a few scrapes.". Oh well. Perhaps we can all move on soon enough. Should he have waited to shoot until he was a bit more battered? In need of serious medical treatment, perhaps? In any case, Z said he shot because he thought Trayvon was reaching for his gun. That's as good a reason as any to shoot when your life is in danger. | ||
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