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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 02 2013 14:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
America, the country where you get shot if you get upset that your being followed.
And since you've come on board to accept the evidence (I'm proud of your last few pages of posts, btw, the objectivity), you know that he wasn't shot because he got upset. He got shot because he put Zimmerman in a position to be able to shoot him in self-defense.
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On July 02 2013 14:11 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ? The shooting people part. Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to do there.
Well, how about the fact that there are consequences for your actions, and when you attack someone you don't get to determine what is going to be done in response.
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On July 02 2013 14:06 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message). I've lived in the South for my entire life, and this is one of the things that is socially ground into most people. Don't give anyone a reason to shoot you, guns are prominent, gun culture is big, don't step on old man jenkins's lawn, don't rob his house, and don't beat him up. He has a shotgun, he'll shoot you in self-defense and win in court if your loved ones sue. It's just a good lesson all around imo, don't fight people, because fists never end a fight, guns do.
"don't give anyone a reason to shoot you"
I don't know about you but if somebody is following me when i'm alone in the dark. I might just take that as a reason to shoot them. Especially if i'm considering that gun culture is big and the person could very easily be holding and especially if said culture is basically saying it's perfectly fine for people to look for reasons to use their weapon.
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On July 02 2013 14:13 omnic wrote:
I don't know about you but if somebody is following me when i'm alone in the dark. I might just take that as a reason to shoot them.
You have just disqualified yourself from any conversation over whether Zimmerman was acting in self-defense or not. Thanks for playing.
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On July 02 2013 14:13 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:11 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ? The shooting people part. Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to do there. Well, how about the fact that there are consequences for your actions, and when you attack someone you don't get to determine what is going to be done in response.
Firearms don't need to be in this equation. Around here, we don't tend to kill each other very much and it's not because everybody's got the tools to kill everybody else at any given time.
The idea that people in the south don't kill each other solely because they're afraid of each other's deadly weapons is kind of funny, especially since they kill each other up to 6x more than we do up here somehow...
It's kind of strange anyway that people would keep calm because they're coerced into being nice. Essentially you've got a bunch of people pretending to be nice to avoid getting killed. And they call it society, being held together by threats of death alone.
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On July 02 2013 14:16 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:13 omnic wrote:
I don't know about you but if somebody is following me when i'm alone in the dark. I might just take that as a reason to shoot them. You have just disqualified yourself from any conversation over whether Zimmerman was acting in self-defense or not. Thanks for playing.
Good to know that you get to dictate what is fair game in a discussion and that pointing out hypocrisy apparently means you don't get to talk.
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On July 02 2013 14:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. Well, with the notoriety of this case, if everyone concludes that Trayvon kicked this guy's ass and then got shot for it, that does make for a hell of a deterrent. Maybe people will learn not to attack people, no matter how angry they are. You simply don't know if you're gonna get shot. Especially since (assuming acquittal) I would imagine they'd assume that "crackers" can feel free to do what Zimmerman did. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message). America, the country where you get shot if you get upset that your being followed. I guess Snowden was right running to russia.
Are you stupid?
He got shot for acting like a fucking barbarian and brutally attacking Zimmerman.
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On July 02 2013 14:16 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:13 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 14:11 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ? The shooting people part. Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to do there. Well, how about the fact that there are consequences for your actions, and when you attack someone you don't get to determine what is going to be done in response. Firearms don't need to be in this equation. Around here, we don't tend to kill each other very much and it's not because everybody's got the tools to kill everybody else at any given time. The idea that people in the south don't kill each other solely because they're afraid of each other's deadly weapons is kind of funny, especially since they kill each other up to 6x more than we do up here somehow... It's kind of strange anyway that people would keep calm because they're coerced into being nice. Essentially you've got a bunch of people pretending to be nice to avoid getting killed. And they call it society, being held together by threats of death alone.
Any response I've started to write has strayed into gun thread territory. So, just take this to mean I disagree, but will try to refrain from derailing.
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On July 02 2013 14:20 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:16 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 14:13 omnic wrote:
I don't know about you but if somebody is following me when i'm alone in the dark. I might just take that as a reason to shoot them. You have just disqualified yourself from any conversation over whether Zimmerman was acting in self-defense or not. Thanks for playing. Good to know that you get to dictate what is fair game in a discussion and that pointing out hypocrisy apparently means you don't get to talk.
Disqualified, as in you're welcome to continue to participate, but anyone who read your justification for shooting someone you think is following you pretty much discredits you as a provider of anything intelligent on this case.
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On July 02 2013 14:25 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:16 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 14:13 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 14:11 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ? The shooting people part. Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to do there. Well, how about the fact that there are consequences for your actions, and when you attack someone you don't get to determine what is going to be done in response. Firearms don't need to be in this equation. Around here, we don't tend to kill each other very much and it's not because everybody's got the tools to kill everybody else at any given time. The idea that people in the south don't kill each other solely because they're afraid of each other's deadly weapons is kind of funny, especially since they kill each other up to 6x more than we do up here somehow... It's kind of strange anyway that people would keep calm because they're coerced into being nice. Essentially you've got a bunch of people pretending to be nice to avoid getting killed. And they call it society, being held together by threats of death alone. Any response I've started to write has strayed into gun thread territory. So, just take this to mean I disagree, but will try to refrain from derailing.
Fair enough. If you care enough, you can write to me in a PM, but I recognize your name and we're not likely to come to an agreement. I've been around the block as far as gun laws go and I don't think it's the point of the issue.
Guns as a deterrent can work but it seems a bit barbaric to me - that's just an opinion. The death of kids could be a deterrent, I just think it's questionable to instrumentalize it. They're people... If it can act as a deterrent, fine - but let's not ask for more dead kids now.
I felt like the point was "let's hope that more people get killed so they'll understand that it's dangerous to attack people". Surely there are better ways.
That said, I'll go crash. Cheers.
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On July 02 2013 14:26 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:20 omnic wrote:On July 02 2013 14:16 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 14:13 omnic wrote:
I don't know about you but if somebody is following me when i'm alone in the dark. I might just take that as a reason to shoot them. You have just disqualified yourself from any conversation over whether Zimmerman was acting in self-defense or not. Thanks for playing. Good to know that you get to dictate what is fair game in a discussion and that pointing out hypocrisy apparently means you don't get to talk. Disqualified, as in you're welcome to continue to participate, but anyone who read your justification for shooting someone you think is following you pretty much discredits you as a provider of anything intelligent on this case.
Funny, I think the same thing every time I read a post of yours especially one that tries to shut down a specific part of the conversation when somebody makes a point.
But that's to be expected from somebody that actually construed my post as saying it's acceptable to shoot somebody for following them rather than pointing out hypocrisy in the idea that we should be spreading (and subtly praising) the idea that people are looking for a reason to shoot somebody as long as they can try to justify it.
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On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that.
assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot.
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On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot.
Isn't the post you quoted talking about how a neighborhood watch that shoots people, even when justified, can't qualify for best neighborhood watch ever?
I'm just lost as to why advocacy is being discussed when Dj is talking about being a night watchman?
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On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot.
He didn't say the judicial system is deceitful he said lawyers. Their job isn't to uncover or release the truth. Their job is to either defend or prosecute in these cases.
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So some "experts" are now wondering if the prosecution just went through all this in order to cool racial tensions and knew they couldn't get a 100% guilty verdict.
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On July 02 2013 14:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. Isn't the post you quoted talking about how a neighborhood watch that shoots people, even when justified, can't qualify for best neighborhood watch ever? I'm just lost as to why advocacy is being discussed when Dj is talking about being a night watchman?
learn how to read better.
On July 02 2013 14:41 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. He didn't say the judicial system is deceitful he said lawyers. Their job isn't to uncover or release the truth. Their job is to either defend or prosecute in these cases.
two equal opponents fighting over the truth is the best way to get to the truth. the process is good; it is not deceitful.
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I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation?
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On July 02 2013 14:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions
Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman.
It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. Isn't the post you quoted talking about how a neighborhood watch that shoots people, even when justified, can't qualify for best neighborhood watch ever? I'm just lost as to why advocacy is being discussed when Dj is talking about being a night watchman? learn how to read better. Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:41 omnic wrote:On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions
Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman.
It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. He didn't say the judicial system is deceitful he said lawyers. Their job isn't to uncover or release the truth. Their job is to either defend or prosecute in these cases. two equal opponents fighting over the truth is the best way to get to the truth. the process is good; it is not deceitful.
The process can be good just as it can be deceitful. Don't get me wrong i'm all in favor of the judicial system but i'm not going to act like lawyers put the truth before their client. Plenty of lawyers will admit to defending (and even successfully defending) a client that they believed to guilty.
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On July 02 2013 14:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So some "experts" are now wondering if the prosecution just went through all this in order to cool racial tensions and knew they couldn't get a 100% guilty verdict.
I don't feel like searching through the last 100 some pages, but I distinctly remember mentioning this idea in this thread.
/tootsownhorn
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On July 02 2013 14:52 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 14:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. Isn't the post you quoted talking about how a neighborhood watch that shoots people, even when justified, can't qualify for best neighborhood watch ever? I'm just lost as to why advocacy is being discussed when Dj is talking about being a night watchman? learn how to read better. On July 02 2013 14:41 omnic wrote:On July 02 2013 14:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience. I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. assuming qualified advocates as we have here, the advocacy system is the best system for getting the truth. the fact that you think the judicial system is a deceitful system makes you look like an idiot. He didn't say the judicial system is deceitful he said lawyers. Their job isn't to uncover or release the truth. Their job is to either defend or prosecute in these cases. two equal opponents fighting over the truth is the best way to get to the truth. the process is good; it is not deceitful. The process can be good just as it can be deceitful. Don't get me wrong i'm all in favor of the judicial system but i'm not going to act like lawyers put the truth before their client. Plenty of lawyers will admit to defending (and even successfully defending) a client that they believed to guilty.
you are still confusing the role of a single lawyer and that of the advocacy system. you need two equal sides seeking the truth, not one. thats why people dont go undefended, and courts admonish people who want to go pro per severely.
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EPT
