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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 02 2013 12:29 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm anxious to hear the first leader of the African-American community come out and use this as a teaching moment about how young African-Americans are better off to restrain themselves rather than using violence when they feel they've been profiled or otherwise treated unfairly. It seems the community is defending his response as how he grew up, or part of his culture, which I don't contend to be false, but it definitely needs to change.
Probably won't happen. Assuming there's an acquital black leader will either remain silent or be on tv bemoaning what a travesty of justice this was and how horribly racist the judicial system and police are.
Outrage is big business these days.
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On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back*
Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him.
I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger.
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On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger.
Looks like you've got it all figured out man.
If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them.
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On July 02 2013 12:32 ConGee wrote:
Question to the lawyers:
What's the chance that the case is concluded without the defense having to take their turn on the stand?
You mean what are the chances that the judge grants the defense a directed verdict after the prosecution rests? I'm not sure, but it's gotta be pretty close. It depends upon the standard for granting a directed verdict in Florida. If, for the purposes of considering the motion for a defensive verdict, the judge has to construe everything in favor of the prosecution, then the state may have just enough to get by virtue of Rachel Jeantel's testimony and the testimony of some of the neighbors. The real problem for State in terms of surviving a directed verdict may be John Good's testimony. I don't know if the State has presented anything that rebuts it. If not, then the defense may get the directed verdict. I just don't really know because I haven't taken the time to track and align competing facts that have been entered into evidence.
If the standard is anything less than construing all facts in favor of the State, then I think the direct verdict is granted.
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Well, fuck me. Watching Piers Morgan, he's talking to some guy who was recruited last week by "church friends" of Rachel Jeantel to prepare her for going to Court. Yeah, church friends ...
Anyways, xDaunt, about the directed verdict, do you suppose the public outrage likely to result from anything but a guilty verdict will play into her decision to take the brunt herself with a directed verdict or let it go to the jury so she's not to blame ?
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On July 02 2013 13:22 Kaitlin wrote:
Well, fuck me. Watching Piers Morgan, he's talking to some guy who was recruited last week by "church friends" of Rachel Jeantel to prepare her for going to Court. Yeah, church friends ...
Anyways, xDaunt, about the directed verdict, do you suppose the public outrage likely to result from anything but a guilty verdict will play into her decision to take the brunt herself with a directed verdict or let it go to the jury so she's not to blame ?
I would expect the black community to be very unhappy if a directed verdict is granted. While they may swallow a jury verdict, I just don't see them accepting the judgment of one white woman who appears to e ruling by fiat (even if they are totally wrong about what happened). I'm sure that the judge will have this on her mind. She probably will look for an excuse to avoid granting a directed verdict if it is a close call.
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On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them.
Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense?
The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented.
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On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented.
I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers).
My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault.
Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience.
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that.
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On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience.I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that.
No he did not disobey "the cops". He didn't listen to a suggestion given to him by a 911 dispatcher who cannot order people for liability reasons and they zero authority.
What's with the bold part as well? It wasn't a slight inconvenience, he was mounted and being MMA style beaten. He was yelling for help for nearly 40 seconds until he resorted to using his firearm.
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On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them.
The lead investigator on the case, a high-ranking police homicide detective or agent or whatever he is, said Zimmerman appeared to him to be in earnest and honest. Add those two and you've got telling the truth. That's what a jury is going to believe.
People killed because of legitimate self-defense were trying to commit murder or inflict severe bodily harm. Based on the testimony of the most credible (and probably most credible of) witnesses presented by the prosecution, not even the defense, this was a legitimate case of self-defense. The jury heard Zimmerman in his own words just a few minutes after the shooting tell his story by the proxy of modern technology, the kind of almost-but-not-quite time travel that is one of those really cool things humans can do (sorry but it is cool when you think about it even the most mundane-seeming things like audio and video recordings). They then heard highly credible police witnesses, including an officer who at the time wanted Zimmerman charged with manslaughter, testify that in their expert opinion (when it comes to the credibility of suspects' statements police are considered informal experts) Zimmerman was truthful to them.
That add ups to a directed verdict of not guilty and a defense-judge tag-team coring of the prosecution, or an acquittal after a scathing and momentous defense closing argument. It also really really heavily suggests Zimmerman's story is true. Which is why the directed verdict or acquittal will leave the prosecution unable to sit for weeks. The prosecution has presented no evidence within a country mile of beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, much less the serious and weighty charge of second-degree murder. Life in prison with your first parole hearing 20+ years away thanks to the poisonous nature of the charges, or forever in jail. The prosecution's argument rests on Zimmerman provoking a fight, because he was so frustrated for non-racial reasons or not but heavily implied to be racial. That he got so angry probably because Trayvon was just immediately a young black punk to him that he spontaneously formed the intent to shoot him if not kill him. From the testimony of major prosecution witnesses, that's nonsense. Major prosecution witnesses have testified that Zimmerman was subdued to say the least, also that Zimmerman said that to him it didn't matter if he killed Martin in self-defense, it was wrong and just as bad no matter how or why. The defense will bring up Martin complaining to the police about racial abuses against blacks and being active trying to help black people in other ways.
These are the things the defense will be saying to the judge or the jury, except if it is to the judge they will be mostly professionally snarky; to the jury, it would be a permaban. Opening and closing arguments in court have a whole big lot more leeway than we do here.
The judge and defense in court or the defense in the media and public opinion is gonna get Old Testament on the prosecution's asses so maybe you should stop talking about the guy like he's a dick. You don't have to but maybe you and everyone else should.
A lot less people would die in the long run if a lot more wanna-be murderers or cripplers got it; but thinking it through that would mean probably hundreds or thousands of deaths in a short period to have an actual acute and long-lasting deterrent effect and that much blood no people wouldn't stand for it and they shouldn't have to stand for it so I take that part back and will say that I was wrong to say it.
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On July 02 2013 13:53 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:36 AndAgain wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. Let me get this straight: are you saying that it's never justified to kill in self defense, or are you saying Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? The former is clearly a ridiculous position and the latter seems to be contradicted by the evidence that has been presented. I'm not saying it's never justified to kill in self defense but I have to say that I'm quite disgusted by the fact that someone should get praise for it. As for what Zimmerman was doing, I wasn't there and I'm not enough of a dumbass to pretend that I have the truth based on "evidence" cleverly brought forward by people who's jobs revolve around deceit (lawyers). My point is, best case scenario: this is a case of self defense, so why say "Best Neighborhood Watch Ever"? Look at the outcome. I've seen better. And look at the events. To my knowledge at least, Zimmerman disobeyed the cops at some point did he not? Either way, kid's dead - it's a shit neighborhood watch, even if it wasn't his fault. Hell, best case scenario, a dude who's job has to do with security had to resort to a firearm to deal with a 17 year old 150 pounds kid. Had that been me, I'd have thought maybe I was outside of my area of expertise. Maybe I should work in an office where I won't have to use lethal force at the slightest inconvenience.I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. No he did not disobey "the cops". He didn't listen to a suggestion given to him by a 911 dispatcher who cannot order people for liability reasons and they zero authority. What's with the bold part as well? It wasn't a slight inconvenience, he was mounted and being MMA style beaten. He was yelling for help for nearly 40 seconds until he resorted to using his firearm.
Which still does little to make it the best neighborhood watch ever and to reduce the incidence of punk kids.
And for most competent security people who are on the field, I'd think that 150 lbs 17 year olds are at best a minor inconvenience.
On July 02 2013 13:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:07 Djzapz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Looks like you've got it all figured out man. If more George Zimmermans were around and killed punk kids, we'd have less punk kids because they'd be getting killed. It's actually pretty smart. I like that your idea of a good solution is to kill the people. Got problem? Punk kids bothering you? Just fucking kill them. The lead investigator on the case, a high-ranking police homicide detective or agent or whatever he is, said Zimmerman appeared to him to be in earnest and honest. Add those two and you've got telling the truth. That's what a jury is going to believe. People killed because of legitimate self-defense were trying to commit murder or inflict severe bodily harm. Based on the testimony of the most credible (and probably most credible of) witnesses presented by the prosecution, not even the defense, this was a legitimate case of self-defense. The jury heard Zimmerman in his own words just a few minutes after the shooting tell his story by the proxy of modern technology, the kind of almost-but-not-quite time travel that is one of those really cool things humans can do (sorry but it is cool when you think about it even the most mundane-seeming things like audio and video recordings). They then heard highly credible police witnesses, including an officer who at the time wanted Zimmerman charged with manslaughter, testify that in their expert opinion (when it comes to the credibility of suspects' statements police are considered informal experts) Zimmerman was truthful to them. That add ups to a directed verdict of not guilty and a defense-judge tag-team coring of the prosecution, or an acquittal after a scathing and momentous defense closing argument. It also really really heavily suggests Zimmerman's story is true. Which is why the directed verdict or acquittal will leave the prosecution unable to sit for weeks. The prosecution has presented no evidence within a country mile of beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, much less the serious and weighty charge of second-degree murder. Life in prison with your first parole hearing 20+ years away thanks to the poisonous nature of the charges, or forever in jail. The prosecution's argument rests on Zimmerman provoking a fight, because he was so frustrated for non-racial reasons or not but heavily implied to be racial. That he got so angry probably because Trayvon was just immediately a young black punk to him that he spontaneously formed the intent to shoot him if not kill him. From the testimony of major prosecution witnesses, that's nonsense. Major prosecution witnesses have testified that Zimmerman was subdued to say the least, also that Zimmerman said that to him it didn't matter if he killed Martin in self-defense, it was wrong and just as bad no matter how or why. The defense will bring up Martin complaining to the police about racial abuses against blacks and being active trying to help black people in other ways. These are the things the defense will be saying to the judge or the jury, except if it is to the judge they will be mostly professionally snarky; to the jury, it would be a permaban. Opening and closing arguments in court have a whole big lot more leeway than we do here. The judge and defense in court or the defense in the media and public opinion is gonna get Old Testament on the prosecution's asses so maybe you should stop talking about the guy like he's a dick. You don't have to but maybe you and everyone else should.
The first thing that's obvious from your posts is your constant appeals to authority. You seem to think that police officers are perfect in some way.
As for the rest of what you said, well it does nothing to change my mind. No reason to praise people for this kind of stuff. No reason to suggest that more of this would somehow reduce crime or whatever.
Read my last post before this if you don't understand what I'm saying.
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On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that.
Well, with the notoriety of this case, if everyone concludes that Trayvon kicked this guy's ass and then got shot for it, that does make for a hell of a deterrent. Maybe people will learn not to attack people, no matter how angry they are. You simply don't know if you're gonna get shot. Especially since (assuming acquittal) I would imagine they'd assume that "crackers" can feel free to do what Zimmerman did. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message).
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On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. Well, with the notoriety of this case, if everyone concludes that Trayvon kicked this guy's ass and then got shot for it, that does make for a hell of a deterrent. Maybe people will learn not to attack people, no matter how angry they are. You simply don't know if you're gonna get shot. Especially since (assuming acquittal) I would imagine they'd assume that "crackers" can feel free to do what Zimmerman did. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message).
Well yeah due to the notoriety of this case in particular perhaps, but if this happened more often, all you'd have is kids getting shot, which presumably would have to be the main concern, why are those dumb kids doing this?
I think the moral question here is, if you're at the point where you're praising a deterrent which involves the death of kids, perhaps you should go back and look to see if you've exhausted all of your options... Deterrents are nice and all but that's a heavy price to pay. Edit: At least to those of us who actually give a crap about people's lives... naturally if you're in favor of killing all the people who do bad things, we won't come to an agreement.
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On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. Well, with the notoriety of this case, if everyone concludes that Trayvon kicked this guy's ass and then got shot for it, that does make for a hell of a deterrent. Maybe people will learn not to attack people, no matter how angry they are. You simply don't know if you're gonna get shot. Especially since (assuming acquittal) I would imagine they'd assume that "crackers" can feel free to do what Zimmerman did. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message).
America, the country where you get shot if you get upset that your being followed.
I guess Snowden was right running to russia.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message).
I've lived in the South for my entire life, and this is one of the things that is socially ground into most people. Don't give anyone a reason to shoot you, guns are prominent, gun culture is big, don't step on old man jenkins's lawn, don't rob his house, and don't beat him up. He has a shotgun, he'll shoot you in self-defense and win in court if your loved ones sue. It's just a good lesson all around imo, don't fight people, because fists never end a fight, guns do.
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On July 02 2013 14:06 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message). I've lived in the South for my entire life, and this is one of the things that is socially ground into most people. Don't give anyone a reason to shoot you, guns are prominent, gun culture is big, don't step on old man jenkins's lawn, don't rob his house, and don't beat him up. He has a shotgun, he'll shoot you in self-defense and win in court if your loved ones sue. It's just a good lesson all around imo, don't fight people, because fists never end a fight, guns do.
Yee haw?
To many like myself, it just seems uncivilized.
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What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ?
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On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ?
The shooting people part.
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On July 02 2013 14:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:10 Kaitlin wrote:
What is uncivilized about learning not to fucking attack people ? The shooting people part.
Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to do there.
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On July 02 2013 14:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:59 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Djzapz wrote:
I'll say this - had it been me, I may have done the same thing as the "best case scenario". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I could have sucked at my job and then managed to pull off a lethal self-defense. But how in hell would it make it the best neighborhood watch ever? How would that reduce the number of annoying punk kids? Not properly, I can say that. Well, with the notoriety of this case, if everyone concludes that Trayvon kicked this guy's ass and then got shot for it, that does make for a hell of a deterrent. Maybe people will learn not to attack people, no matter how angry they are. You simply don't know if you're gonna get shot. Especially since (assuming acquittal) I would imagine they'd assume that "crackers" can feel free to do what Zimmerman did. National message, you never know when someone is armed, so don't give them a self-defense argument (which really isn't a bad message). America, the country where you get shot if you get upset that your being followed. I guess Snowden was right running to russia.
Lmao you and all your posts are so ridiculous.
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EPT
