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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 02 2013 12:29 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm anxious to hear the first leader of the African-American community come out and use this as a teaching moment about how young African-Americans are better off to restrain themselves rather than using violence when they feel they've been profiled or otherwise treated unfairly. It seems the community is defending his response as how he grew up, or part of his culture, which I don't contend to be false, but it definitely needs to change.
I hate Touré as a pundit, but he already kind of did soon after the incident occurred (and caught some shit for it).
http://ideas.time.com/2012/03/21/how-to-talk-to-young-black-boys-about-trayvon-martin/
Edit: He did write this soon after the case began headline news, so he presumes Trayvon's 'guiltlessness' at the end. It would be interesting if he ever addresses Trayvon's attack of Zimmerman (probably when pigs fly).
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On July 02 2013 16:40 Defacer wrote:
LOL.
I don't think Obama said anything along the lines of Zimmerman being guilty, but more like 'if I had a son he would look like Trayvon' and 'this should be investigated' and 'being young and black kind of sucks this way.'
Yeah, but can you see how him saying that can rile people up? He's the President of the United States, the most well-respected African American male in the world, making a comment empathizing with the dead victim of a controversial case.
Back when George Bush was president (HW, not Dubya), he made a small comment about liking pork rinds. Sales of pork rinds shot up within weeks, and they're disgusting. Even my mother bought us a few bags to try out, and she wasn't even American.
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On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this?
Other than the testimony of the girl Martin was talking to?
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On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger.
I actually respect you, but the assertion that George Zimmerman did a good job is the stupidest thing you've ever written that I've read.
Have you ever been in a fight? Do you have friends that ever started a fight, or did some other stupid shit in high school? Do they deserve to die because of it? Would you be okay if some 'good samaritan' stuck his nose in and shot your friend?
Here's a fact that's undeniable: Zimmerman somehow managed to kill a teenager who's only intent that night was to go to his dad's girlfriend's house. Bravo.
Maybe self-defense will exonerate Zimmerman, but your standard for civil society is the occasional teenager getting shot for starting a fight you should move to Pakistan or Somalia or some other fucked up country.
Edit: You already took back what you said, so nevermind. It's Canada day, so I'm behind. Happy Canada day!
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On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Maybe self-defense will exonerate Zimmerman, but your standard for civil society is the occasional teenager getting shot for starting a fight you should move to Pakistan or Somalia or some other fucked up country.
That's actually bullshit. I come from a respectable family who teaches their kids how to behave in a civil society. I've never been in a real violent fight, although minor scuffles are common in a teenage high school. If it takes a gunshot to show that teen violence is unacceptable, then that's one positive outcome. Put the fear of death in them and they'll start behaving right.
What do I have to back up this claim? I come from a minority race, although I'm not black. My (great) grandfathers were almost penniless when they came across the sea to start a new life. We were being abused by mostly white racists for half a century, but today things are much better and people are almost always friendly. We're known for going to university, making an honest living and generally boasting low crime rates.
Why can't black people be the same? Why is it that nearly every black community around the world is infamous for a few things? I disagree on the whole "colonial slavery" rationale, I don't believe that the whites of yesteryear liked us any better than they did the blacks. I think the truth is that their community needs some harsh discipline to start delivering results. Don't get me wrong there are some very respectable blacks who live a righteous lifestyle but then again, statistics don't lie.
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On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Have you ever been in a fight? Do you have friends that ever started a fight, or did some other stupid shit in high school? Do they deserve to die because of it? Would you be okay if some 'good samaritan' stuck his nose in and shot your friend?
There is a HUGE difference between fighting among acquaintances in high school/college, in public around other high school/college acquaintances, and fighting an unknown stranger, alone, in the dark, on a stormy night.
If I were to attack you on the street outside of a bar with 15 people around us and you started screaming HELP HELP HELP. Someone would likely tackle me off of you and hold me back. Probably even call the cops for you. Now if I were to attack you and no one was around and you started screaming HELP HELP HELP and no one came to your aid, what would you think? What would go through your mind if you are screaming HELP while I'm straddling you pummeling your face in and not a soul is around to pull me off of you?
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On July 02 2013 17:09 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Maybe self-defense will exonerate Zimmerman, but your standard for civil society is the occasional teenager getting shot for starting a fight you should move to Pakistan or Somalia or some other fucked up country. That's actually bullshit. I come from a respectable family who teaches their kids how to behave in a civil society. I've never been in a real violent fight, although minor scuffles are common in a teenage high school. If it takes a gunshot to show that teen violence is unacceptable, then that's one positive outcome. Put the fear of death in them and they'll start behaving right. What do I have to back up this claim? I come from a minority race, although I'm not black. My (great) grandfathers were almost penniless when they came across the sea to start a new life. We were being abused by mostly white racists for half a century, but today things are much better and people are almost always friendly. We're known for going to university, making an honest living and generally boasting low crime rates. Why can't black people be the same? Why is it that nearly every black community around the world is infamous for a few things? I disagree on the whole "colonial slavery" rationale, I don't believe that the whites of yesteryear liked us any better than they did the blacks. I think the truth is that their community needs some harsh discipline to start delivering results. Don't get me wrong there are some very respectable blacks who live a righteous lifestyle but then again, statistics don't lie.
I'm Asian, and I have basically the same backstory.
You're opening up a massive can of worms, without a single explanation or a silver bullet solution.
For example, in Vancouver, there's a lot of Natives/indigenous people that live in poverty and have serious drug/alcohol related issues. They spend a lot of time in and out of jail. Part of the reason individuals have trouble escaping their poverty is that they are part of a community that indoctrinates them with resentment — towards white culture and their own. They also have very few positive role models, in their own communities or in the media. It's a lot harder to pursue an education or know the path to success when you have people in your family that are alcoholics, or are high school dropouts, or are have been to jail.
It's a vicious cycle. It can take generations to escape. My grandma grew up in the HK ghetto with a 3rd grade education, had 12 children, and I'm the first and only grandchild to graduate with a university degree. That's considered a big win. Compare that to my non-immigrant friends that have uncles, or doctors or consultants in their family ... growing up surrounded by success and education is simply par for course. I'm envious that their legacy is so well-established.
As for a lack of discipline in the Black community, I agree. But I think you'd agree that discipline administered at the end of the gun just breeds more resentment. The discipline has to come from within their community, not outside of it.
Sorry to everybody for the tangent, I just thought your point of view was interesting. Be thankful you come from a family of hard workers, like I did.
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On July 02 2013 17:09 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Have you ever been in a fight? Do you have friends that ever started a fight, or did some other stupid shit in high school? Do they deserve to die because of it? Would you be okay if some 'good samaritan' stuck his nose in and shot your friend? There is a HUGE difference between fighting among acquaintances in high school/college, in public around other high school/college acquaintances, and fighting an unknown stranger, alone, in the dark, on a stormy night.
Hey, I know the difference. But most 17 year olds don't. They do stupid shit all the time.
Edit: Although I've seen some fights between high school and college kids that were absolutely terrifying. Unless you're under 12, don't get into fights.
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On July 02 2013 17:30 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 17:09 Dosey wrote:On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Have you ever been in a fight? Do you have friends that ever started a fight, or did some other stupid shit in high school? Do they deserve to die because of it? Would you be okay if some 'good samaritan' stuck his nose in and shot your friend? There is a HUGE difference between fighting among acquaintances in high school/college, in public around other high school/college acquaintances, and fighting an unknown stranger, alone, in the dark, on a stormy night. Hey, I know the difference. But most 17 year olds don't. They do stupid shit all the time.
Zimmerman appears to be innocent by US law as the prosecution has no solid evidence to indicate that his life wasn't in danger.
However, I couldn't have set it better myself, he did not act admirably in any way, shape or form. Was Trayvon in the right attacking him? Probably not, but since we don't know exactly how the fight broke out it is speculation.
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On July 02 2013 17:30 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 17:09 Dosey wrote:On July 02 2013 16:55 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 02 2013 07:38 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 Infernal_dream wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. I wouldn't say worst ever. Maybe if he immediately shot him or something. But not for shooting him when he was in a fight. There's people at my work actually convinced that GZ slammed his own head into the ground to cause the cuts. My building has a Neighborhood Watch, and we have managed to kill 0 relatives of the people that live here. *pats himself on the back* Is there something other than race (besides being pissed off that the racial victimology and outrage angle you've been jumping on mercilessly has been shot below the waterline) that causes you and Magpie to be snarky mean girls towards Zimmerman? The idea that he profiled and stalked Martin intending to harm or restrain him is totally without credibility after today. The police testifying have basically all said that they, men who are trained and experienced in being cynical and cutting through bullshit, said they believe Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman said he only left his car to get a street name to give to the police and that he was going back to his car when Martin jumped him unprovoked and starting beating on him. I'll say it, George Zimmerman: Best. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. If more George Zimmermans were around punk kids of any race would be less likely to think pounding the crap out of a stranger is the solution to being pissed off at that stranger. Have you ever been in a fight? Do you have friends that ever started a fight, or did some other stupid shit in high school? Do they deserve to die because of it? Would you be okay if some 'good samaritan' stuck his nose in and shot your friend? There is a HUGE difference between fighting among acquaintances in high school/college, in public around other high school/college acquaintances, and fighting an unknown stranger, alone, in the dark, on a stormy night. Hey, I know the difference. But most 17 year olds don't. They do stupid shit all the time. Edit: Although I've seen some fights between high school and college kids that were absolutely terrifying. Unless you're under 12, don't get into fights.
That doesn't excuse what he did or make light of what he could have potentially done to Zimmerman if Zimmerman did not defend himself. It also doesn't take away from the absolute terror that Zimmerman probably felt when he realized no one was coming to his aid. It is entirely possible that Martin wouldn't have known when to stop and inflicted permanent damage upon Zimmerman, maybe even kill him, especially with no one there to stop him. As someone who has been in many fights, I can honestly say that if my friends weren't around to pull me off of some of the guys I fought, I fear what may have happened. When your blood is pumping and all you see is red, you sometimes don't even realize how much damage you are doing until it is done.
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On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this?
I find your inability to believe that a teenager doesn't need a good reason to get into a fight with someone very strange. Perhaps you lived a very sheltered life? So many times growing up I saw fights happen for literally no reason other than teenagers trying to be tough. I was at a party once in high school. Talking and laughing with some friends- some sober gate crashers turn up and one of them comes up to me and says 'what did you say about my brother?' I replied 'I don't know your brother'. Next thing the guy was swinging at me and I ended up with a black eye and friend got a chipped tooth. In our shock we never even tried to fight back. Another time a group of friends drinking in a park at night. One of our group was sitting on the ground a little apart from us. Suddenly a group of other teenagers that we hadn't interacted with in anyway ran up and started beating the shit out of him with bats and bottles. Kid was taken away in an ambulance unconscious and bleeding from head wounds.
The only plausible explanation I can think of for why they attacked, apart from just that they were bullies and enjoyed inflicting pain and being 'tough', is the fact that in both cases (and several others I witnessed) the attackers were Maori/Polynesian and the victims were white. But yet the ultimate taboo is to ever suggest that a darker-skinned person might ever attack a lighter-skinned for racist reasons even though you're quite happy to attribute racist reasons to Zimmerman's actions. Apparently only white people are capable of racist violence, correct?
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On July 02 2013 16:19 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:16 TOCHMY wrote:
I've been following the trial on and off at work, having seen only fractions of the trial. How is it going for Zimmerman at this point do you think? Well, experts are debating if the defense is even going to put on a case, if that helps. Every witness called by the prosecution has helped the defense more than the prosecution with the possible exception of Rachel Jeantel.
With the possible exceptiong of Rachel Jeantel... who admitted to lying under oath multiple times in previous statements. So take that for what it's worth.
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Woah, is the judge actually going to grant a mistrial based upon the Serino's testimony bolstering Zimmerman's credibility?
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On July 02 2013 22:11 xDaunt wrote:
Woah, is the judge actually going to grant a mistrial based upon the Serino's testimony bolstering Zimmerman's credibility?
Nevermind, it looks like the State is only asking the Court to order the jury to disregard Serino's testimony on that point. I don't recall the State lodging any objections during the line of questioning.
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On July 02 2013 22:14 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:11 xDaunt wrote:
Woah, is the judge actually going to grant a mistrial based upon the Serino's testimony bolstering Zimmerman's credibility? Nevermind, it looks like the State is only asking the Court to order the jury to disregard Serino's testimony on that point. I don't recall the State lodging any objections during the line of questioning.
They didnt, it was the last question and no objection
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On July 02 2013 19:56 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this? I find your inability to believe that a teenager doesn't need a good reason to get into a fight with someone very strange. Perhaps you lived a very sheltered life? So many times growing up I saw fights happen for literally no reason other than teenagers trying to be tough. I was at a party once in high school. Talking and laughing with some friends- some sober gate crashers turn up and one of them comes up to me and says 'what did you say about my brother?' I replied 'I don't know your brother'. Next thing the guy was swinging at me and I ended up with a black eye and friend got a chipped tooth. In our shock we never even tried to fight back. Another time a group of friends drinking in a park at night. One of our group was sitting on the ground a little apart from us. Suddenly a group of other teenagers that we hadn't interacted with in anyway ran up and started beating the shit out of him with bats and bottles. Kid was taken away in an ambulance unconscious and bleeding from head wounds. The only plausible explanation I can think of for why they attacked, apart from just that they were bullies and enjoyed inflicting pain and being 'tough', is the fact that in both cases (and several others I witnessed) the attackers were Maori/Polynesian and the victims were white. But yet the ultimate taboo is to ever suggest that a darker-skinned person might ever attack a lighter-skinned for racist reasons even though you're quite happy to attribute racist reasons to Zimmerman's actions. Apparently only white people are capable of racist violence, correct?
Bullies don't attack people stronger than them. I find it hard to believe Martin was "bullying" Zimmerman. Anecdotal evidence is never very good.
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On July 02 2013 19:56 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this? I find your inability to believe that a teenager doesn't need a good reason to get into a fight with someone very strange. Perhaps you lived a very sheltered life? So many times growing up I saw fights happen for literally no reason other than teenagers trying to be tough. I was at a party once in high school. Talking and laughing with some friends- some sober gate crashers turn up and one of them comes up to me and says 'what did you say about my brother?' I replied 'I don't know your brother'. Next thing the guy was swinging at me and I ended up with a black eye and friend got a chipped tooth. In our shock we never even tried to fight back. Another time a group of friends drinking in a park at night. One of our group was sitting on the ground a little apart from us. Suddenly a group of other teenagers that we hadn't interacted with in anyway ran up and started beating the shit out of him with bats and bottles. Kid was taken away in an ambulance unconscious and bleeding from head wounds. The only plausible explanation I can think of for why they attacked, apart from just that they were bullies and enjoyed inflicting pain and being 'tough', is the fact that in both cases (and several others I witnessed) the attackers were Maori/Polynesian and the victims were white. But yet the ultimate taboo is to ever suggest that a darker-skinned person might ever attack a lighter-skinned for racist reasons even though you're quite happy to attribute racist reasons to Zimmerman's actions. Apparently only white people are capable of racist violence, correct?
A couple of things:
1) Perhaps you should refrain from using a double negative - already at the very first sentence you make it rather hard to follow what you are trying to say.
2) You might want to refrain from guessing about peoples background on the internet as you really do not have any way of knowing - and the relevance is probably zero anyway.
3) In both of your anecdotes the violence was committed by people who obviously were out seeking violence. Somehow walking to someones house with a bag of skittles doesn't strike me as having that primary purpose, but perhaps skittles in a plastic bag signal "I am out to fuck shit up" in Florida culture? Mind you I never denied the occurrence of random violence, but considering where the alterication took place, where Martin was originally spotted and the history of Zimmerman, if true, at some point Martin must have decided to go out of his way and beating up Zimmerman instead of getting to previously mentioned house - we lack a good explanation as to why. Now I do not know how it feels to suffer from perceived racial profiling all the time, and perhaps this really was the straw that broke the camels back, I am just not convinced by the story of how the conflict went down.
4) Zimmerman is latino, not white.
5) I never stated anything concerning racism - that is all on you.
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On July 02 2013 22:15 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:56 tomatriedes wrote:On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this? I find your inability to believe that a teenager doesn't need a good reason to get into a fight with someone very strange. Perhaps you lived a very sheltered life? So many times growing up I saw fights happen for literally no reason other than teenagers trying to be tough. I was at a party once in high school. Talking and laughing with some friends- some sober gate crashers turn up and one of them comes up to me and says 'what did you say about my brother?' I replied 'I don't know your brother'. Next thing the guy was swinging at me and I ended up with a black eye and friend got a chipped tooth. In our shock we never even tried to fight back. Another time a group of friends drinking in a park at night. One of our group was sitting on the ground a little apart from us. Suddenly a group of other teenagers that we hadn't interacted with in anyway ran up and started beating the shit out of him with bats and bottles. Kid was taken away in an ambulance unconscious and bleeding from head wounds. The only plausible explanation I can think of for why they attacked, apart from just that they were bullies and enjoyed inflicting pain and being 'tough', is the fact that in both cases (and several others I witnessed) the attackers were Maori/Polynesian and the victims were white. But yet the ultimate taboo is to ever suggest that a darker-skinned person might ever attack a lighter-skinned for racist reasons even though you're quite happy to attribute racist reasons to Zimmerman's actions. Apparently only white people are capable of racist violence, correct? Bullies don't attack people stronger than them. I find it hard to believe Martin was "bullying" Zimmerman. Anecdotal evidence is never very good.
I find it interesting that you're sure Zimmerman is the stronger of the two.
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Anyone else get a lol out of the lawyers not knowing how to open the dvd tray for the laptop?
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On July 02 2013 22:38 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:15 Klondikebar wrote:On July 02 2013 19:56 tomatriedes wrote:On July 02 2013 16:22 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 16:18 Kaitlin wrote:On July 02 2013 16:04 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 14:49 Ghostcom wrote:
I would just like to point out that contrary to popular belief, police officers are no better than the average population at detecting lies - which is 50%. You really might as well just throw a coin.
I would really like someone to, within the parameters of the Zimmerman story, come up with a reasonable explanation for why Martin forced a confrontation, because as far as I can tell the only way that happens is if Martin acts irrational to the extreme - but I might simply have missed the explanation? Quoting myself as no one has answered. Did I miss the explanation or is everyone else at a loss for Martins motive as well? I thought I had already thrown out there that Martin was likely pissed because another "cracker" had treated him as suspicious simply because he was black and Martin when he thought Zimmerman was vulnerable thought he was going to get his revenge. Teach him a lesson. Hard to believe ? I simply missed it - and I would label it in the category of believable but not convincing. Is this "merely" your suggestion (not that it doesn't count of course), or have the defence hinted at this? I find your inability to believe that a teenager doesn't need a good reason to get into a fight with someone very strange. Perhaps you lived a very sheltered life? So many times growing up I saw fights happen for literally no reason other than teenagers trying to be tough. I was at a party once in high school. Talking and laughing with some friends- some sober gate crashers turn up and one of them comes up to me and says 'what did you say about my brother?' I replied 'I don't know your brother'. Next thing the guy was swinging at me and I ended up with a black eye and friend got a chipped tooth. In our shock we never even tried to fight back. Another time a group of friends drinking in a park at night. One of our group was sitting on the ground a little apart from us. Suddenly a group of other teenagers that we hadn't interacted with in anyway ran up and started beating the shit out of him with bats and bottles. Kid was taken away in an ambulance unconscious and bleeding from head wounds. The only plausible explanation I can think of for why they attacked, apart from just that they were bullies and enjoyed inflicting pain and being 'tough', is the fact that in both cases (and several others I witnessed) the attackers were Maori/Polynesian and the victims were white. But yet the ultimate taboo is to ever suggest that a darker-skinned person might ever attack a lighter-skinned for racist reasons even though you're quite happy to attribute racist reasons to Zimmerman's actions. Apparently only white people are capable of racist violence, correct? Bullies don't attack people stronger than them. I find it hard to believe Martin was "bullying" Zimmerman. Anecdotal evidence is never very good. I find it interesting that you're sure Zimmerman is the stronger of the two.
Last I checked guns beat bags of skittles. Unless tasting the rainbow grants powers of which I am not aware.
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EPT
