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Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 191

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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.

If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post.
LaughingTulkas
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1107 Posts
June 28 2013 16:23 GMT
#3801
On June 29 2013 01:19 PCloadletter wrote:
Jonathan Good, thanks, got it.


Legal insurrections has a defense attorney following the case and blogging, I've found it really insightful. Here's his take on teh testimony:

Here
"I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill
LaughingTulkas
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1107 Posts
June 28 2013 16:24 GMT
#3802
On June 29 2013 01:22 xDaunt wrote:
Okay, I just watched the CNN-HLN coverage of this trial for a few minutes. It is horrific beyond description.


It's almost like they WANT riots to happen in the all-but-inevitable not-guilty verdict.It irresponsible and awful.
"I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 28 2013 16:25 GMT
#3803
On June 29 2013 01:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
Opinion question: Will Zimmerman really need to testify if the witnesses are torpedoing the State's case so much?

No.

Regardless of how the case has gone so far, there was no chance that Zimmerman was going to testify at trial. He has given too many statements about what happened. Even under the best of circumstances, it is almost impossible to be entirely consistent when giving so many statements. He would get killed on cross examination. Hell, it would be malpractice for his attorneys to even let him on the stand.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
June 28 2013 16:30 GMT
#3804
On June 29 2013 01:25 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
Opinion question: Will Zimmerman really need to testify if the witnesses are torpedoing the State's case so much?

No.

Regardless of how the case has gone so far, there was no chance that Zimmerman was going to testify at trial. He has given too many statements about what happened. Even under the best of circumstances, it is almost impossible to be entirely consistent when giving so many statements. He would get killed on cross examination. Hell, it would be malpractice for his attorneys to even let him on the stand.


As much as I'd love for Zimmerman to take the stand, xDaunt is 100% correct. If you think it looks bad when someone has a hard time speaking clearly, you should see how bad it looks when someone has talked as much as Zimmerman has.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
June 28 2013 16:42 GMT
#3805
On June 29 2013 01:23 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:19 PCloadletter wrote:
Jonathan Good, thanks, got it.


Legal insurrections has a defense attorney following the case and blogging, I've found it really insightful. Here's his take on teh testimony:

Here

added to op. thanks.

if anyone else has stuff like this, please let me know and i will add it to op. lots of people cant watch the live stream. thanks.
Fulla
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom519 Posts
June 28 2013 16:42 GMT
#3806
So to clarify for someone who hasn't been watching. This witness alone pretty much just ended the entire trial?
New Hearthstone Cards ----> www.youtube.com/FullasGames
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
June 28 2013 16:46 GMT
#3807
On June 29 2013 01:25 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
Opinion question: Will Zimmerman really need to testify if the witnesses are torpedoing the State's case so much?

No.

Regardless of how the case has gone so far, there was no chance that Zimmerman was going to testify at trial. He has given too many statements about what happened. Even under the best of circumstances, it is almost impossible to be entirely consistent when giving so many statements. He would get killed on cross examination. Hell, it would be malpractice for his attorneys to even let him on the stand.

they can put in his statements even without him testifying. i think its 50/50 whether he comes in, and probably 70/30 if they lose the motion for directed verdict. he can do more good than harm in my opinion.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 28 2013 16:47 GMT
#3808
On June 29 2013 01:42 Fulla wrote:
So to clarify for someone who hasn't been watching. This witness alone pretty much just ended the entire trial?


What did he say?


Seriously guys. We need LR for this.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-28 16:47:52
June 28 2013 16:47 GMT
#3809
On June 29 2013 01:47 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:42 Fulla wrote:
So to clarify for someone who hasn't been watching. This witness alone pretty much just ended the entire trial?


What did he say?


Seriously guys. We need LR for this.

trayvon was on top beating on zimmerman in a "ground and pound" MMA style. zimmerman was screaming for help.

On June 29 2013 01:23 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:19 PCloadletter wrote:
Jonathan Good, thanks, got it.


Legal insurrections has a defense attorney following the case and blogging, I've found it really insightful. Here's his take on teh testimony:

Here
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
June 28 2013 16:47 GMT
#3810
On June 29 2013 01:47 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:42 Fulla wrote:
So to clarify for someone who hasn't been watching. This witness alone pretty much just ended the entire trial?


What did he say?


Seriously guys. We need LR for this.


http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-blockbuster-transcript-eyewitness-good-black-guy-in-black-hoodie-on-top-punching-down-mixed-martial-arts-style/
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 28 2013 16:52 GMT
#3811
On June 29 2013 01:47 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:47 Sufficiency wrote:
On June 29 2013 01:42 Fulla wrote:
So to clarify for someone who hasn't been watching. This witness alone pretty much just ended the entire trial?


What did he say?


Seriously guys. We need LR for this.


http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-blockbuster-transcript-eyewitness-good-black-guy-in-black-hoodie-on-top-punching-down-mixed-martial-arts-style/


ty
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
June 28 2013 16:59 GMT
#3812
George Zimmerman trial: Neighbor testifies Trayvon Martin was straddling Zimmerman moments before fatal gunshot

A former neighbor of George Zimmerman testified he saw two men in a "tussle" outside his home the night of Feb. 26, 2012, and said he now believes the person on top in the altercation - which would moments later turn fatal - was Trayvon Martin.

In key testimony, he also said he believes George Zimmerman was the person yelling for help.

PICTURES: George Zimmerman on trial in death of Fla. teen

VIDEO: Zimmerman trial: Prosecutor opens with profanity

John Good took the stand Friday in the fifth day of testimony in the Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial. The former neighborhood watch captain is charged with shooting the unarmed teen as he was walking back to his father's fiancee's home through a Sanford, Fla. gated community.

John Good testified he saw a man in dark clothing on top of a man who was wearing red or light-colored clothing with lighter skin. Zimmerman, 29, was wearing a red jacket the night of the altercation, and Martin was wearing a dark hoodie. However, Good testified that he didn't see the person on top smashing the other person's head into the sidewalk, as Zimmerman claims Martin did before he fatally shot the teen.

READ: Trayvon Martin Shooting: A timeline of events

Taking the stand Thursday, John Good said he was at home watching television with his wife when he heard a "faint noise" that seemed to be getting closer. Outside, he said he saw the person on top of another man.

The man on the bottom, who he said he now believes is George Zimmerman, yelled for help.

"At first it was "What's going on," and no one answered,' " Good said, describing calling out for the men. "And then at that point the person on the bottom, I could finally see, I heard a 'help.' Then at some point I said 'Cut it out.' And then, 'I'm calling 911.' That's when I thought it was getting really serious."

The altercation seemed to escalate, according to Good. The struggle moved to the cement pathway, and he said the person in dark clothing straddled the other man in "mixed martial arts position" he later described to police as a "ground and pound." He said he saw "arm movements going downward," though he couldn't be certain the person on top was striking the person on the bottom.

"The person you now know to be Trayvon Martin was on top, correct?" asked defense attorney Mark O'Mara. "He was the one raining blows down on George Zimmerman, correct?"

"That's what it looked like," Good answered.

Good said he then went back inside to call 911. As he was dialing the phone, he heard a gunshot. His 911 call was played in court as the jury listened.

"I just heard a shot right behind my house. They're wrestling right in back of my porch," Good said on the recording. "...I'm pretty sure the guy's dead out here. Holy sh--."

Later, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda asked whether it was possible a police officer could have used the term "ground and pound" before he did.

"It's possible," Good said.

De la Rionda honed in on Good's earlier statement that he couldn't confirm the person on top was hitting the other person.

"Correct," Good said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591520-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-neighbor-testifies-trayvon-martin-was-straddling-zimmerman-moments-before-fatal-gunshot/
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
June 28 2013 17:01 GMT
#3813
lol. it must suck as a prosecutor to have to throw the police force under the bus to impeach witnesses.

Later, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda asked whether it was possible a police officer could have used the term "ground and pound" before he did.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
June 28 2013 17:03 GMT
#3814
Legal experts, considering the lesser-included manslaughter charge: Would it be improper for a juror to look at it from the perspective that if the State had thought he was guilty of manslaughter, they wouldn't have pursued this ridiculous murder charge, and therefore use that as a factor in their determination that Zimmerman is also not guilty of manslaughter ? In other words, as part of the basis for their verdict, they drew a conclusion from the theory of the prosecution's case being ridiculous instead of consistent with a manslaughter charge ? Does that make sense ?
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
June 28 2013 17:07 GMT
#3815
On June 29 2013 02:03 Kaitlin wrote:
Legal experts, considering the lesser-included manslaughter charge: Would it be improper for a juror to look at it from the perspective that if the State had thought he was guilty of manslaughter, they wouldn't have pursued this ridiculous murder charge, and therefore use that as a factor in their determination that Zimmerman is also not guilty of manslaughter ? In other words, as part of the basis for their verdict, they drew a conclusion from the theory of the prosecution's case being ridiculous instead of consistent with a manslaughter charge ? Does that make sense ?

doubt that. usually with lesser included, the jury can say "i dont think you met second degree, but it was enough for manslaughter so i will go there." they also like to split the baby: i will convict, but the punishment will be less. just to be clear, i am not sure whether they can go for lesser included offenses in Florida since they indicted on second degree murder. I am not familiar enough with the Florida system.
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
June 28 2013 17:07 GMT
#3816
On June 29 2013 01:24 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 01:22 xDaunt wrote:
Okay, I just watched the CNN-HLN coverage of this trial for a few minutes. It is horrific beyond description.


It's almost like they WANT riots to happen in the all-but-inevitable not-guilty verdict.It irresponsible and awful.


Truthfully, given a lot of the local political motives for a number of people involved, it should probably be assumed that's what they'd want. The fact they're going for a Murder 2 charge pretty much told everyone this was heavily political in nature. The DA's office has set themselves up to fail. (The first few days of the Trial have shown they didn't have a prayer on the Motive aspect needed for Murder 2. So that part is just grand standing.)
ranshaked
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States870 Posts
June 28 2013 17:09 GMT
#3817
On June 29 2013 02:03 Kaitlin wrote:
Legal experts, considering the lesser-included manslaughter charge: Would it be improper for a juror to look at it from the perspective that if the State had thought he was guilty of manslaughter, they wouldn't have pursued this ridiculous murder charge, and therefore use that as a factor in their determination that Zimmerman is also not guilty of manslaughter ? In other words, as part of the basis for their verdict, they drew a conclusion from the theory of the prosecution's case being ridiculous instead of consistent with a manslaughter charge ? Does that make sense ?


I don't understand the question.
Personally, the only reason why a murder 2 was pushed was because it would appeal to the people. It would show that he had a trial. Originally they were going to simply state whether or not he stood his ground, but then they decided to go with a m2. The state messed up the Casey Anthony trial in the same way.
ranshaked
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States870 Posts
June 28 2013 17:10 GMT
#3818
On June 29 2013 02:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2013 02:03 Kaitlin wrote:
Legal experts, considering the lesser-included manslaughter charge: Would it be improper for a juror to look at it from the perspective that if the State had thought he was guilty of manslaughter, they wouldn't have pursued this ridiculous murder charge, and therefore use that as a factor in their determination that Zimmerman is also not guilty of manslaughter ? In other words, as part of the basis for their verdict, they drew a conclusion from the theory of the prosecution's case being ridiculous instead of consistent with a manslaughter charge ? Does that make sense ?

doubt that. usually with lesser included, the jury can say "i dont think you met second degree, but it was enough for manslaughter so i will go there." they also like to split the baby: i will convict, but the punishment will be less. just to be clear, i am not sure whether they can go for lesser included offenses in Florida since they indicted on second degree murder. I am not familiar enough with the Florida system.
I don't believe they can. Look at the Casey Anthony trial.
zbedlam
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia549 Posts
June 28 2013 17:12 GMT
#3819
On June 29 2013 00:46 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 23:10 zbedlam wrote:
On June 28 2013 23:06 jeremycafe wrote:
On June 28 2013 23:04 zbedlam wrote:
On June 28 2013 23:00 jeremycafe wrote:
On June 28 2013 22:50 zbedlam wrote:
Someone being beaten to death doesn't say help once or twice, I would say this witness is helping the state marginally so far.


How does this help the state? He didn't say it once or twice. He was only watching for around 10 seconds. You can hear the entire cry for helps in the 911 call. It was clearly more than 1 or two times.

He made a comment that the voice sounded different on the tape. Well its a recording vs hearing it in person. People tell me I sound like I am black when hearing my voice over the phone, but not in person. We don't sound 100% the same when being recorded. The defense will catch this I hope.


If someone was on top of you beating to death, and you heard another person telling you two to break it up. Would you say "help" once or twice over the course of 10 or so seconds?

But yes nothing this witness says is proof either way, however the voices being definitely different is suggestive.


I don't understand, you don't seem to be following his testimony. The cries for help came at the end of his 10 seconds, not the beginning. He yelled out for them to stop, then the person started yelling for help. If you line the 911 call up with what he is saying, it is the same person crying for help many many times. Have you not listened to the 911 call? The person crying for help sounds pretty damn desperate to me.


The 911 call is not definitely zimmerman screaming for help, in fact from what I understand they had audio experts claiming it was Trayvon but they were not allowed to testify.

Maybe I am misunderstanding this witness but from what I can see, he didn't paint a picture of the man on the bottom screaming for help over and over again.

they werent allowed to testify because the court found them unreliable. i think you should think twice before relying on them.


I'm not relying on them, I was pointing out that you can't say with certainty that it was Zimmerman screaming for help during the calls either.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 28 2013 17:13 GMT
#3820
On June 29 2013 02:03 Kaitlin wrote:
Legal experts, considering the lesser-included manslaughter charge: Would it be improper for a juror to look at it from the perspective that if the State had thought he was guilty of manslaughter, they wouldn't have pursued this ridiculous murder charge, and therefore use that as a factor in their determination that Zimmerman is also not guilty of manslaughter ? In other words, as part of the basis for their verdict, they drew a conclusion from the theory of the prosecution's case being ridiculous instead of consistent with a manslaughter charge ? Does that make sense ?

Well, it is improper for the jury to consider anything but the evidence admitted at trial and the instructions given to the jury. Jurors are not supposed to think about anything else. Obviously, they always do. So in short, though it would be improper for the jury to draw such an inference, they might do so anyway.
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