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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:06 ranshaked wrote: Wait, like when facebook suggests friends to you? smh. Are they incompetent? Yes, and apparently so. Mara had a nice smile on his face during the exchange. He followed up by having the witness announce her total number of tweets in the entire existence of the account. Answer: 0. | ||
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skyrunner
371 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:06 dotHead wrote: The defense gets stuck on specific words because she can't pronounce them properly. He had to ask her to repeat herself at least a hundred times. She said "Could be Trayvon" "Coulda be Trayvon" "Couldna(sp?) be Trayvon", and "Couldn't be Trayvon", to describe who it was saying "Get off". Of course he had to ask her over and over. He coudn't even read what she said in the transcript because it made no sense, and had to get the tape to play her saying Couldna. No it wasn't repeating answers. It was literally "so in your opinion trayvon confronted zimmerman?" "No, sir" "According to you trayvon confronted zimmeran to..." "No, sir" "trayvon gave you the impression he was gonna confront the man" "No, sir" And also with the spanish speaking woman. The whole surprised/worried thing. And pretty much a whole lot more in everything i've seen from the defense so far. The Girl is of low intelligence i agree, but that i don't know if she is necessarily less of a witness because of that? | ||
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JohnJohnson
United States49 Posts
On March 29 2012 03:20 Boonbag wrote: Rights of self defense are really kind of fucked up in USA. I mean come on, armed people patrolling without any form of control ? What if one of these guys gets drunk, or has violent mood swings ? Form of control? What do you want, agents and cops following every single person that's ever legally purchased a firearm to make sure that they don't do something? People can get drunk and have violent mood swings with their bare hands, as well as knives, blunt objects, cars, anything else they feel like using. There's many documented instances of carrying citizens that have prevented or stopped violent crimes in progress, because they happened to be "patrolling" with weapons. Our country doesn't have the manpower, nor should they, to police every single place at every single time. There's nothing wrong with responsible people owning guns, and I don't think anyone but Zimmerman in this case can say what the true context of the situation was at this point. You're going to have fucked up people that abuse privileges of everything, including firearms and weapons carry, as well as a host of everything else in the world. It's not indicative of a lack of control or rights, it's indicative of bad people. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:01 skyrunner wrote: Yeah ok. Pretty much thought so, but I thought it was kind of... I don't know, obvious maybe? I mean as a juror I would go mostly on what the witness communicated not what the lawyer basically made them say. Depends on the Juror. Personal biases will always lead you to trust some people less than others. Those jurors with those biases simply need to hear the right word to validate why they aren't supposed to believe someone. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:22 JohnJohnson wrote: Form of control? What do you want, agents and cops following every single person that's ever legally purchased a firearm to make sure that they don't do something? People can get drunk and have violent mood swings with their bare hands, as well as knives, blunt objects, cars, anything else they feel like using. There's many documented instances of carrying citizens that have prevented or stopped violent crimes in progress, because they happened to be "patrolling" with weapons. Our country doesn't have the manpower, nor should they, to police every single place at every single time. There's nothing wrong with responsible people owning guns, and I don't think anyone but Zimmerman in this case can say what the true context of the situation was at this point. You're going to have fucked up people that abuse privileges of everything, including firearms and weapons carry, as well as a host of everything else in the world. It's not indicative of a lack of control or rights, it's indicative of bad people. He's upset that a gung-ho vigilante shot a kid. The controls he's talking about is in trying to prevent bullshit like this from happening. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:28 On_Slaught wrote: Interesting testimony from the Spanish speaking women. Saw the person who was on top and who said to call the police (Zimmerman) pacing back and forth with one hand at his head and one at his waist. If he was badly hurt he would probably be cradling his injuries, though this can be discounted because of adrenaline. However that type of pacing can be interpreted as somebody who knows they fucked up trying to figure out what to do and how to get out of this mess. Defense could just say things had gotten out of hand and Zimmerman was ofc shocked by having to shoot somebody. So does this mean it's certain that Zimmerman was on top? | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:28 On_Slaught wrote: Interesting testimony from the Spanish speaking women. Saw the person who was on top and who said to call the police (Zimmerman) pacing back and forth with one hand at his head and one at his waist. If he was badly hurt he would probably be cradling his injuries, though this can be discounted because of adrenaline. However that type of pacing can be interpreted as somebody who knows they fucked up trying to figure out what to do and how to get out of this mess. Defense could just say things had gotten out of hand and Zimmerman was ofc shocked by having to shoot somebody. pacing = sign of guilt? that was certainly not the first thing that popped into my mind. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote: pacing = sign of guilt? that was certainly not the first thing that popped into my mind. Not that I agree with him--but realizing you fucked up is very different from guilt in my opinion. Feeling bad about shooting someone fits with the "somebody who knows they fucked up" description. But no, I don't really know what pacing will tell us other than both his legs work. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote: pacing = sign of guilt? that was certainly not the first thing that popped into my mind. This is an extremely far stretch. Pacing doesn't mean anything. You don't even need adrenaline to not be "cradling your injuries" he didn't have an arm blown off, he had some cuts. People can get up and walk around fine with broken bones. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:39 Infernal_dream wrote: This is an extremely far stretch. Pacing doesn't mean anything. You don't even need adrenaline to not be "cradling your injuries" he didn't have an arm blown off, he had some cuts. People can get up and walk around fine with broken bones. So lets ignore the pacing and get to the real point. Does this mean that Zimmerman was on top of Martin when Martin got shot? | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: So lets ignore the pacing and get to the real point. Does this mean that Zimmerman was on top of Martin when Martin got shot? maybe my TV show bias is showing but shouldn't forensics be able to tell that without any witnesses based on entrance of bullet and any blood etc from the scene? | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:50 crms wrote: maybe my TV show bias is showing but shouldn't forensics be able to tell that without any witnesses based on entrance of bullet and any blood etc from the scene? as far as i have seen/read, they didnt find a bullet in the ground. if thats true, then they are shitty at finding bullets, or zimmerman didnt shoot him while he was allegedly on top of the kid. i need to check whether it lodged in trayvon...ill be back. @thievingmagpie, why do you bother to ask? you have already made up your mind. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:22 JohnJohnson wrote: Form of control? What do you want, agents and cops following every single person that's ever legally purchased a firearm to make sure that they don't do something? People can get drunk and have violent mood swings with their bare hands, as well as knives, blunt objects, cars, anything else they feel like using. There's many documented instances of carrying citizens that have prevented or stopped violent crimes in progress, because they happened to be "patrolling" with weapons. Our country doesn't have the manpower, nor should they, to police every single place at every single time. There's nothing wrong with responsible people owning guns, and I don't think anyone but Zimmerman in this case can say what the true context of the situation was at this point. You're going to have fucked up people that abuse privileges of everything, including firearms and weapons carry, as well as a host of everything else in the world. It's not indicative of a lack of control or rights, it's indicative of bad people. There's also this very highly documented and publicized instance of carrying citizen that killed an innocent (legally, kid was a punk otherwise) highschool youth by trying to prevent or stop violent crimes suspected of being in progress, because they happened to be "patrolling" with weapons. Our country doesn't have the manpower, nor should they, to police every single place at every single time. There's nothing wrong with irresponsible and incompetent people like Zimmerman patrolling our streets, and I don't think that Zimmerman will say the true context of the situation if it means he will be found guilty - therefore, he is not a credible witness to his own scene of alleged crime. You're going to have innocent people die, by allowing people to buy guns without background checks, or patrol neighbourhoods without any proper training. It's not indicative of liberty, it's indicative of idiocy. Liberty and responsibility are the two sides of the same coin. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-behavior-pattern-prosecutor-article-1.1381957 edit: nevermind, autopsy report says no exit wound. recovered in body. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martin-autopsy_n_1525763.html | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote: pacing = sign of guilt? that was certainly not the first thing that popped into my mind. I didn't say it meant he was guilty. It's part of painting a complete picture. You're a lawyer so you should know better than anyone that these trials are about creating a narrative. This is something that fits into the prosecutions picture of what happened and is certainly something you could brush over in closing while going through the events. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
As for the Colombian witness' testimony that GZ was on top. She was referring to a time frame after the shot was fired. That is why they did the demo in the courtroom to time how long it took her to walk from where she was to the window / door, where she saw Z on top. She heard the gun shot first, so it's a matter of George getting out from under Trayvon during the time she walked to see him on top. She did not see GZ on top before the shot was fired. edit: Not that I find her a dishonest witness, because I think she was trying to be honest, but I have trouble believing that her demonstration was entirely accurate because: 1) her walk began immediately from the time she heard the noise. In my thoughts, I would think there would be a moment to process what it was she heard, before deciding to go to the door / window to look out. She described the gunshot not as a gunshot, but like the sound of a skateboard hitting the concrete, so her initial thought was that it was just a child playing outside who made that noise. That doesn't prompt an "immediate" walk to look out, but rather at least a few seconds to ponder, possibly put down what is in her hands, whatever, then walk. 2) her walk was a normal pace, not hurried as if it was important to get there right away to see what happened, like time was of the essence. Her non-rushed pace helps to contradict the idea that she immediately began her trek to see what happened. If she immediately dropped everything to go to see, she would have demonstrated a considerably quicker pace in the courtroom, which everyone saw, she didn't. So, that's why I believe there was plenty of time between the gunshot and her eyewitness account for George to have gotten out from under Trayvon. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:56 On_Slaught wrote: I didn't say it meant he was guilty. It's part of painting a complete picture. You're a lawyer so you should know better than anyone that these trials are about creating a narrative. This is something that fits into the prosecutions picture of what happened and is certainly something you could brush over in closing while going through the events. i read this as you thinking it showed guilt: "can be interpreted as somebody who knows they fucked up trying to figure out what to do and how to get out of this mess." but if you dont think it shows guilt, i am fine with that. i think its very hard to say what pacing means because its hard to know how someone will react after a fight and shooting someone. | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On June 28 2013 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: this says there were exit wounds, so the bullets were not lodged in his body. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-behavior-pattern-prosecutor-article-1.1381957 Then forensics should have been able to find the bullet lodged in the ground at the crime scene, not to mention that the blood spatter for an upward shot to someone on top of you would be much different that that of a downward shot on someone below you. I agree with the other guy, I'm not quite sure why we have to rely eyewitness reports instead of the reports of paid professionals who should have been able to describe the series of events in a matter of minutes. Then again, this might be the "laziness of the police department" that was referred to in the media. I haven't been following the case very closely so I'm not sure what evidence the police investigation managed to find. | ||
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