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On March 20 2012 09:51 VyingsP wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:29 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 09:18 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 09:09 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 09:05 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 09:00 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 08:50 JohnMatrix wrote:On March 20 2012 08:41 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 08:39 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 08:38 AIOL! wrote:Go melenchon !! I'm voting for him atm  You are smart if you do so . I haven't watched his show, could any of you enlighten me on how he plans on financing his social measures (augmentation of the smic to 1700€ for example) ? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvkNhKzrpw (at 43:50) Very enlightening... Financed 100% with tax increases. What's your opinion on taxing capital for french firms (French firms will have to pay an additional 100 Billion € in taxes if I understood Mr Mélanchon well) in a time of crisis with regards to economic growth ? What crisis ? CEOs salaries kept increasing drastically the past few years, I don't see any crisis. Ok, that was funny. Outrageously high salaries are a problem I agree. However they are only worth a couple of Millions, nowhere near the 160 Billion euros that Mr Mélanchon says he needs for his program. Now how about you answer my question ? I adopt a different point of view regarding this matter I believe, => massive raising in salaries means increase in purchasing power, and that leads to more consommation, so this in itself is good for the economy. Now regarding the tax on capital, you do know most firms are taking HUGE marges to maximize their profit (way more so than what they would need for their sales to be satisfying), and that's exactly the reason we can tax them more without really hurting our economy as long as we protect our trade policies. You remember the massive increase of almost every single thing we can buy with the switch from Francs to Euros ? And the prices that kept raising ever since ? Do you find justified that the most common price for a haircut for example is 20 euros ? We come to a point where we need to stop greediness don't you think ? Haven't all massive redistribution policies (not to say communist) proven to be economic failures in the past ? Don't you fear that by taxing the rich 100% more, they'll find it more advantageous to go pay their taxes in Switzerland or Belgium ? Regarding benefits from firms, I do believe that they need this money to pay their stock holders. Stockholders are basically people who lend you money and who expect you to pay them back with interest. Firms are more then happy to have that money being lend to them because they believe they can make more money with it. Low level economics here but the fact that firms are making profits doesn't mean we can tax them on it. And greediness ? Seriously ? What do you think the firms are doing with all their supposedly left over money ? Last near-communist experiment I heard about took a mediaval country (Holy Russia) and propelled it into the modern era. And then a bloody dictator took control over the whole country and ruined the whole idea. As far as I am concerned, state regulation has a lot of pros. </troll> But I understand your biggest concern : you are afraid of all those capitalist who would take the money they earned in France using all the facilities our country provides (school system, transportation, infrastructures, power plants, police...) and hiding that money in other less-regarding countries (sup Switzerland :D). This concern is about a real threat. This is why the government needs more power over the banks. And guess what, Sarkozy is not the one who will inforce such laws. But with Mélenchon (or Natalie Arthaud if you think Mélenchon is not credible enough) there is a high chance that the french IRS will have enough power/means to investigate and track down all those profiteers. About what the firms do with the left-over : there is NO left-over. All the benefits go to the shareholders. And of course it would be stupid to tax it ! How would Total SARL shareholders live without their yearly earnings ? I have no idea...
I know ! If Total SARL shareholders didn't have their yearly earning they'd just sell their shares and go invest in a US company. Bah, good ridance, who needs them anyways right ? Give the shares to the workers and we'll be better off amirite ?
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Right-wing Sarkozy said a few days ago "I just discovered that big companies don't pay any taxes in France, that's bad."
(source: last week's Weekly Zapping).
If the president himself can "discover" such a thing after 5 years at the top of the state, I guess there is something to be done there.
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On March 20 2012 09:29 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:18 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 09:09 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 09:05 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 09:00 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 08:50 JohnMatrix wrote:On March 20 2012 08:41 Geiko wrote:On March 20 2012 08:39 Mysti_ wrote:On March 20 2012 08:38 AIOL! wrote:Go melenchon !! I'm voting for him atm You are smart if you do so . I haven't watched his show, could any of you enlighten me on how he plans on financing his social measures (augmentation of the smic to 1700€ for example) ? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvkNhKzrpw (at 43:50) Very enlightening... Financed 100% with tax increases. What's your opinion on taxing capital for french firms (French firms will have to pay an additional 100 Billion € in taxes if I understood Mr Mélanchon well) in a time of crisis with regards to economic growth ? What crisis ? CEOs salaries kept increasing drastically the past few years, I don't see any crisis. Ok, that was funny. Outrageously high salaries are a problem I agree. However they are only worth a couple of Millions, nowhere near the 160 Billion euros that Mr Mélanchon says he needs for his program. Now how about you answer my question ? I adopt a different point of view regarding this matter I believe, => massive raising in salaries means increase in purchasing power, and that leads to more consommation, so this in itself is good for the economy. Now regarding the tax on capital, you do know most firms are taking HUGE marges to maximize their profit (way more so than what they would need for their sales to be satisfying), and that's exactly the reason we can tax them more without really hurting our economy as long as we protect our trade policies. You remember the massive increase of almost every single thing we can buy with the switch from Francs to Euros ? And the prices that kept raising ever since ? Do you find justified that the most common price for a haircut for example is 20 euros ? We come to a point where we need to stop greediness don't you think ? Haven't all massive redistribution policies (not to say communist) proven to be economic failures in the past ? Don't you fear that by taxing the rich 100% more, they'll find it more advantageous to go pay their taxes in Switzerland or Belgium ? Regarding benefits from firms, I do believe that they need this money to pay their stock holders. Stockholders are basically people who lend you money and who expect you to pay them back with interest. Firms are more then happy to have that money being lend to them because they believe they can make more money with it. Low level economics here but the fact that firms are making profits doesn't mean we can tax them on it. And greediness ? Seriously ? What do you think the firms are doing with all their supposedly left over money ?
Mélenchon says he will track them anyway, and in case you don't know most of them already do pay their taxes in other countries so it doesn't really matters it's not like if they were of any help. And yet they can still benefit from our health care system and get their plastic surgery in France it's a shame.
You described the system pretty well and it disgusts me to a point you can't imagine, I'm no economy expert and I try to follow my convictions. The first thing is that if nobody initiates a changement then this whole system will be the only one we get to know. Now I intimately believe both in human values and justice / equality for all, and no matter how this system works it just feels so flawed to me, so yeah, maybe this would pose some problems but every problem has a solution. And maybe the solution will be a global revolution on earth and a new global system where firms benefits are shared with every employee of the firm equally (this is what Mélenchon wishes), all that with a maximal salary scale of 1 to 20, meaning that in case of good profits a CEO can increase his wage if he does the same proportionally for all his employees. And WE as frenchs could pull the trigger with Mélenchon and hopefully be followed by other countries.
And yes currently maximizing profits is the golden rule of every single company on this planet, and there are no limits to this system so it's pure greediness, I'll lend you one last example wich is pretty self-explanatory: the essence costs that climb when the oil baril climbs, but don't diminish when the oil baril diminishes...
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François Bayrou is my champion.
One man to reduce debts and deficits, he makes beautiful speeches, and does not make false promises like all the others.
oh one last thing, he his a centrist, which I love, but not a feeble or weak one,
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The "raise minimal wages to raise buying power " idea fails completely as you have to raise taxes significantly on people & businesses to afford it (specially with our already sky-high debt). Thats not how you "fix" an economy, that not how you create economic growth. It failed before in France, it failed everywhere else it has been done. The simple fact that this idea is still present in this campaign, like it was in the last one and probably the one before (but I was too young to care) makes me mad.
I'm so happy I got the fuck away when I could, the next few years are going to be hard for young people looking for work.
Assez amusant, une conversation entre Francais sur un sujet on ne peut plus Franco-Francais menee exclusivement en anglais...
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On March 20 2012 09:51 VyingsP wrote:
But with Mélenchon (or Natalie Arthaud if you think Mélenchon is not credible enough) there is a high chance that the french IRS will have enough power/means to investigate and track down all those profiteers.
About what the firms do with the left-over : there is NO left-over. All the benefits go to the shareholders. And of course it would be stupid to tax it ! How would Total SARL shareholders live without their yearly earnings ? I have no idea...
Wait... doesn't Artaud want to abolish private property? Or is that the NPA?
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On March 20 2012 10:06 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:51 VyingsP wrote:
But with Mélenchon (or Natalie Arthaud if you think Mélenchon is not credible enough) there is a high chance that the french IRS will have enough power/means to investigate and track down all those profiteers.
About what the firms do with the left-over : there is NO left-over. All the benefits go to the shareholders. And of course it would be stupid to tax it ! How would Total SARL shareholders live without their yearly earnings ? I have no idea... Wait... doesn't Artaud want to abolish private property? Or is that the NPA?
She wants to abolish private property over production facilities. Which means that every firm is under the direct control of the population and not some unknow shareholder. You can still owe your house and your television though^^
+ Show Spoiler +But the trotskist theory is a bit complicated to explain tonight. I am tired now, good night
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I just have one thing to add :
I just read the 7 pages of this thread. When i couldnt understand what politic really was, i supported Socialist Party because my parents agreed with them. Now that i met people, now that i faced the world, i changed my mind, and i actually support Mélenchon.
The common mistake people do when arguing is that, no matter the candidate, they chose an isolated idea to see the eventual aftermaths on our world and think about its viability but they fail to consider the program as a whole, program wich is an accumulation of ideas.
Well, that's not how things work. We are talking about programs, these are not propositions.
Yes, Mélenchon wants to raise taxes for person making more than 300 000€ a year (seriously ? are you going to say to me that you really NEED more ? that you DESERVE more ? Hell no, you're just abusing the system, making poor people work for the lower wages so you can make more money), but that's not it. You can't just assume that it's everything he wants to create.
He also wants to make french people running away pay the difference. If you owe 20 000k € to Switzerland, and if you should have owe 120 000k€ to France (well, ofc these numbers are fictionnal), then you have to give France's fisc 100 000k€. Moreover, machines you use in your factory don't belong to you anymore if you want to leave the country. It belongs to the workers that used it for their whole life. They are those who creates things, those who allowed you to be rich. They deserve to be treated well, and not to die because you are selfish. So, they can take the whole factory.
See ? It's not only one thing, it's a lot of them.
Actually, and seeing what Americans opinion are on the matter (reading reddit and some american's journals) - and it begins to be the same way of thinking in Europe, which is frigtening me) -, people start thinking that the goal of every life is to make money. Hell, no. You dont live to make money. You make money so you can live, so you are able to buy food, water and have some fun. I don't see how it can be a shame to tax rich people.
I will answer to those americans who don't understand that people in Europe - and in France - want to have a powerful state.
For us, life isnt fair. If you let rich people without rule, they will mostly do only what they want ie try by any way to make more money, even if that means they have to destroy other people's life. Our state allow us to make pauses in our life, they grant us time so we can rebuild ourselves.
If your CEO fired you, and if your wife let you down, you can't still count on your State. Why State and not Private insurance ? Because your interests are State's interest. Your interest are private insurances's when you can pay them. If you are having a bad time, you can still count on other people solidarity. That's why France's motto is "Liberty, Equality, brotherhood".
That's why, to me, French spirit is leftist.
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Communism caused the death of approximately 100 000 000 people according to some sources. China's success comes from their capitalist opening, North Korea is a failure, Cuba is a failure, communist Vietnam is a failure, the USSR is a failure, Angola is a failure, etc, etc...
I really don't believe in such theories anymore.
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How does Melenchon have anything to do with North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, USSR and Angola ? How is his program communist ? He's not even a communist he was still in Hollande's party a few years ago. Anyways I don't know about communism so I can't really talk but I'm pretty sure most french communist politicians are trotskysts which is the opposite of Staline.
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On March 20 2012 10:31 Kukaracha wrote:
Communism caused the death of approximately 100 000 000 people according to some sources. China's success comes from their capitalist opening, North Korea is a failure, Cuba is a failure, communist Vietnam is a failure, the USSR is a failure, Angola is a failure, etc, etc...
I really don't believe in such theories anymore.
Well, i don't think you really understand what "communist" means ... Since single country you talked about were stalinist countries. And approximately everybody admitted that this wasnt the same.
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The second I saw that someone was in the Socialist Party running, I knew that very moment that this would turn into a massive debate about socialism/communism/capitalism. :|
Best of luck France, I hope you pick someone the people want and is best for your country.
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On March 20 2012 10:46 Supter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:31 Kukaracha wrote:
Communism caused the death of approximately 100 000 000 people according to some sources. China's success comes from their capitalist opening, North Korea is a failure, Cuba is a failure, communist Vietnam is a failure, the USSR is a failure, Angola is a failure, etc, etc...
I really don't believe in such theories anymore. Well, i don't think you really understand what "communist" means ... Since single country you talked about were stalinist countries. And approximately everybody admitted that this wasnt the same.
That and Mélenchon is NOT communist, the PG (parti de gauche) has an alliance with the PCF (parti communiste français) but Mélenchon isn't from a communist party.
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On March 20 2012 10:31 Kukaracha wrote:
Communism caused the death of approximately 100 000 000 people according to some sources. China's success comes from their capitalist opening, North Korea is a failure, Cuba is a failure, communist Vietnam is a failure, the USSR is a failure, Angola is a failure, etc, etc...
I really don't believe in such theories anymore.
Are you really trying to compare Mélanchon with Staline, Mao, and Kim Jong Il ?
......
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Just downloaded Melanchon's program pdf and to sum it up its spending, spending, more spending.
Theres not a single explanation of how he will create economic growth to support the spending besides taxing the rich extensively which (besides being economic suicide) wont be nearly enough. Its like he lives in a fantasy land where debt doesnt exists. Stereotypical far-left program, nothing to see here.
Im baffled people here take him seriously, I wish economy classes were mandatory pre-bac.
If he was to be elected president, France would be Greece 2.0 except no country is rich enough to bail us out.
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Sounds like France, similar to the U.S.A, has no real excellent candidates. If I lived over there, I would vote Sarkozy for a lack of a better option (mostly because his economics are slightly more sound than Hollande and he supports nuclear power).
Hollande though sounds like a serious nutcase
"His list of policies includes the creation of a band of income tax set to 75% for the income exceeding 1,000,000 € per year"
"He also advocates reducing the share of nuclear power in electricity generation from 75 to 50% in favor of renewable energy sources."
I would never ever ever vote for this guy was he in my country.
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On March 20 2012 12:08 ampson wrote:
Sounds like France, similar to the U.S.A, has no real excellent candidates. If I lived over there, I would vote Sarkozy for a lack of a better option (mostly because his economics are slightly more sound than Hollande and he supports nuclear power).
Hollande though sounds like a serious nutcase
"His list of policies includes the creation of a band of income tax set to 75% for the income exceeding 1,000,000 € per year"
"He also advocates reducing the share of nuclear power in electricity generation from 75 to 50% in favor of renewable energy sources."
I would never ever ever vote for this guy was he in my country.
How does it make him a nutcase ?
Do you even know how does taxation work in France ? There are tons of estate investment that provide tax exemption (Besson bill, Scellier amendment, Robien bill, etc.). Basically, you buy an apartment, and up to 65% (with de Robien bill) of the total value of the apartment is deducted from your taxable revenue. Obviously only very rich people can afford those "gifts".
People with high income don't pay more tax than people with low income. People who pay the more tax in France are middle-class and higher middle class.
75% of the income exceeding 1M€ is perfectly fine to me.
Regarding nuclear energy, I'm mitigated, doing what Germany did was retarded (closing nuclears plants to re-open coal plants instead until something cleaner was found). I think nuclear energy is pretty good. But investing in renewable energies is a decent way of creating jobs and restructuring economy, so I'm all for it.
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On March 20 2012 13:00 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 12:08 ampson wrote:
Sounds like France, similar to the U.S.A, has no real excellent candidates. If I lived over there, I would vote Sarkozy for a lack of a better option (mostly because his economics are slightly more sound than Hollande and he supports nuclear power).
Hollande though sounds like a serious nutcase
"His list of policies includes the creation of a band of income tax set to 75% for the income exceeding 1,000,000 € per year"
"He also advocates reducing the share of nuclear power in electricity generation from 75 to 50% in favor of renewable energy sources."
I would never ever ever vote for this guy was he in my country.
How does it make him a nutcase ? Do you even know how does taxation work in France ? There are tons of estate investment that provide tax exemption (Besson bill, Scellier amendment, Robien bill, etc.). Basically, you buy an apartment, and up to 65% (with de Robien bill) of the total value of the apartment is deducted from your taxable revenue. Obviously only very rich people can afford those "gifts". People with high income don't pay more tax than people with low income. People who pay the more tax in France are middle-class and higher middle class. 75% of the income exceeding 1M€ is perfectly fine to me. Regarding nuclear energy, I'm mitigated, doing what Germany did was retarded (closing nuclears plants to re-open coal plants instead until something cleaner was found). I think nuclear energy is pretty good. But investing in renewable energies is a decent way of creating jobs and restructuring economy, so I'm all for it.
You do have to be careful not to destroy too many jobs in the nuclear sector in the process, otherwise the net gain in jobs will be zero.
The thing that worries me regarding the 75% tax is that it goes right into confiscation of wealth territory. Not only it equates the rich to horrible people, but if you also take into account that he wants to bring back the fortune tax, people may very well be taxed for nearly 100% of their income. How is that in any way fair, and how will it stop the rich from simply emigrating and spending their money elsewhere?
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On March 20 2012 13:18 scFoX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 13:00 endy wrote:On March 20 2012 12:08 ampson wrote:
Sounds like France, similar to the U.S.A, has no real excellent candidates. If I lived over there, I would vote Sarkozy for a lack of a better option (mostly because his economics are slightly more sound than Hollande and he supports nuclear power).
Hollande though sounds like a serious nutcase
"His list of policies includes the creation of a band of income tax set to 75% for the income exceeding 1,000,000 € per year"
"He also advocates reducing the share of nuclear power in electricity generation from 75 to 50% in favor of renewable energy sources."
I would never ever ever vote for this guy was he in my country.
How does it make him a nutcase ? Do you even know how does taxation work in France ? There are tons of estate investment that provide tax exemption (Besson bill, Scellier amendment, Robien bill, etc.). Basically, you buy an apartment, and up to 65% (with de Robien bill) of the total value of the apartment is deducted from your taxable revenue. Obviously only very rich people can afford those "gifts". People with high income don't pay more tax than people with low income. People who pay the more tax in France are middle-class and higher middle class. 75% of the income exceeding 1M€ is perfectly fine to me. Regarding nuclear energy, I'm mitigated, doing what Germany did was retarded (closing nuclears plants to re-open coal plants instead until something cleaner was found). I think nuclear energy is pretty good. But investing in renewable energies is a decent way of creating jobs and restructuring economy, so I'm all for it. You do have to be careful not to destroy too many jobs in the nuclear sector in the process, otherwise the net gain in jobs will be zero. The thing that worries me regarding the 75% tax is that it goes right into confiscation of wealth territory. Not only it equates the rich to horrible people, but if you also take into account that he wants to bring back the fortune tax, people may very well be taxed for nearly 100% of their income. How is that in any way fair, and how will it stop the rich from simply emigrating and spending their money elsewhere?
Well, the new 75% taxation is only a new slice of taxation, the share of the revenue under 1M€ will not be taxed more than before. Unfortunately many misinformed people in France think it means 75% of their revenue will be taken by the treasure....
What about the tax exemption investments I mentioned ? You can even cumulate tax exemption investments.
Each of those tax exemption can get you up to 8% of the total value of the investment each year.
Let's say you earn 1.3M€ a year (assuming a part of your income isn't paid through tax exempted stock options, which is actually frequent for people earning that much). You are currently supposed to pay a 550k€ income tax. (I used the online "calculateur d'impôt sur le revenu").
With all tax exemption programs that exist you'll end up paying something like 420k€, which is barely 30% of your total income. 30% is more or less what middle class and upper middle class salary pay, because they can't afford those "gifts".
With Hollande's proposition, someone earning 1.3M€ would pay close to 50% of tax, instead of 30%, thanks to this new slice.
Sounds fair to me.
It's funny you mention tax evasion. Isn't Sarkozy a very good friend of Johnny Halliday (old French super rockstar) who spends 50.1% of the year in Switzerland so he doesn't have to pay French income tax ?
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On March 20 2012 14:03 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 13:18 scFoX wrote:On March 20 2012 13:00 endy wrote:On March 20 2012 12:08 ampson wrote:
Sounds like France, similar to the U.S.A, has no real excellent candidates. If I lived over there, I would vote Sarkozy for a lack of a better option (mostly because his economics are slightly more sound than Hollande and he supports nuclear power).
Hollande though sounds like a serious nutcase
"His list of policies includes the creation of a band of income tax set to 75% for the income exceeding 1,000,000 € per year"
"He also advocates reducing the share of nuclear power in electricity generation from 75 to 50% in favor of renewable energy sources."
I would never ever ever vote for this guy was he in my country.
How does it make him a nutcase ? Do you even know how does taxation work in France ? There are tons of estate investment that provide tax exemption (Besson bill, Scellier amendment, Robien bill, etc.). Basically, you buy an apartment, and up to 65% (with de Robien bill) of the total value of the apartment is deducted from your taxable revenue. Obviously only very rich people can afford those "gifts". People with high income don't pay more tax than people with low income. People who pay the more tax in France are middle-class and higher middle class. 75% of the income exceeding 1M€ is perfectly fine to me. Regarding nuclear energy, I'm mitigated, doing what Germany did was retarded (closing nuclears plants to re-open coal plants instead until something cleaner was found). I think nuclear energy is pretty good. But investing in renewable energies is a decent way of creating jobs and restructuring economy, so I'm all for it. You do have to be careful not to destroy too many jobs in the nuclear sector in the process, otherwise the net gain in jobs will be zero. The thing that worries me regarding the 75% tax is that it goes right into confiscation of wealth territory. Not only it equates the rich to horrible people, but if you also take into account that he wants to bring back the fortune tax, people may very well be taxed for nearly 100% of their income. How is that in any way fair, and how will it stop the rich from simply emigrating and spending their money elsewhere? Well, the new 75% taxation is only a new slice of taxation, the share of the revenue under 1M€ will not be taxed more than before. Unfortunately many misinformed people in France think it means 75% of their revenue will be taken by the treasure.... What about the tax exemption investments I mentioned ? You can even cumulate tax exemption investments. Each of those tax exemption can get you up to 8% of the total value of the investment each year. Let's say you earn 1.3M€ a year (assuming a part of your income isn't paid through tax exempted stock options, which is actually frequent for people earning that much). You are currently supposed to pay a 550k€ income tax. (I used the online "calculateur d'impôt sur le revenu"). With all tax exemption programs that exist you'll end up paying something like 420k€, which is barely 30% of your total income. 30% is more or less what middle class and upper middle class salary pay, because they can't afford those "gifts". With Hollande's proposition, someone earning 1.3M€ would pay close to 50% of tax, instead of 30%, thanks to this new slice. Sounds fair to me. It's funny you mention tax evasion. Isn't Sarkozy a very good friend of Johnny Halliday (old French super rockstar) who spends 50.1% of the year in Switzerland so he doesn't have to pay French income tax ?
I get that it's 75% for the part above 1M€ only -- but it still means that you're not allowed to earn more than that or you get it taken away. Tax exemptions is not a sufficient excuse; in fact they're supposed to be there to incite people to invest their money instead of hoarding it. If too much tax exemption is a problem, than just put a cap on just how much you can be exempt; problem solved. For the record, I am also of the opinion there are too many ways to get tax exemptions, but it doesn't mean they are all bad.
Regarding tax evasion, if France takes a page out of the American IRS and taxes people living abroad the difference between foreign taxes and what it would have cost in France, the problem will be partially alleviated, but then again people will perhaps abandon their French nationality altogether.
I just want the socialist party go get their head out of the Marxist mindset that the rich are the source of all problems in the country. It's just like the school system: if people have an easier time learning things, that's baaaad. Better dumb things down so that the baccalaureat doesn't mean anything anymore as a diploma.
...
Gneh, it's late, I'm getting cynical. :-/
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EPT
