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LeLfe
France3160 Posts
On March 20 2012 23:40 endy wrote: I already did. And I will not come back as long as Sarkozy is president. 2 of my best friends did as well, and are not planning to come back... Sarkozy or not :/ | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 20 2012 23:41 Kerm wrote: This video means nothing. I'm not even talking about the fact that's it's in french on this enligh-speaking forum, or the fact that it's a video made by the UMP ( Sakozy's party) in order to be caricatural and just try to append the term"liar" on François Hollande. This video just shows that he said one year ago that the very proposition he made about that 75% taxe rate would not have "any effect". Wow. Guess what, everybody knows that this tax rate change would not have a big effect as far as governement debt is concerned. This would not bring lots of money in. No one's denying it. It's a symbolic measure, asking very rich people to show they are helping in this time of crisis, when unemployement skyrockets as CAC40 bosses revenue raises by 34% percent (!!). I don't see contradiction here, only evolution from something that was "not that usefull" one year to something that's a good symbol in the current context. So if we're gonna talk politics here, what about discussing real stuff, instead of going with buzzwords, stupid video and catchy phrases (as most politicians do btw) ? The video is made by UMP, but it shows actual footage from TF1 with François Hollande. He doesn't only say that it won't have any effect (everyone knows that), he also explicitly says that such a measure will cause rich people (such as Bettancourt) to leave France and that therefor is counter-productive. It's funny to note that the next days, he then understood how bad this proposition was and then decided to propose a new "bouclier fiscal" (fiscal shield ?) that he has fought so hard against during 5 years... I've tried talking about "real politics" on this forum, but the users only seem interested in talking about Sarkozy's vacation and rich friends. Would you like to talk about how the financing of Hollande's campaign is 90% based on taxe increases to limit France's debt, and financed 100% by an impossible growth rate figure for the rest of his program ? (Hollande thinks the growth rate will be 2,25 % in 2012-2017 whereas the OCDE has predicted a little over 1%) | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpgjfw_exclusif-le-sarkopipo-demasque_news | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
For clarification, the two round system means that i can vote for the person i WANT to win in the first round (Green) and then get serious and vote against the person i don't want to win in the second round right? (PS this is what happens when you a student of politics in the UK, you learn almost nothing of other country's systems...) | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 20 2012 23:57 chuky500 wrote: Geiko you say people will flea France if taxes are too high but you don't seem to know the program of Sarkozy. He took the idea from Melenchon to tax people overseas : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpgjfw_exclusif-le-sarkopipo-demasque_news That's a smart idea. Mélanchon brought up this idea a couple of years back, then forgot about it. When Sarkozy brought it up again, both him and Hollande inserted it in their program. The idea is that, if you are abroad, you still "owe" something to France, because French nationality gives you rights (social aids, retirements etc...). The only risk is that people will give up their nationality, but since those people already don't pay taxes in France, we're not losing money. In reality however, this idea will never see practical applications, much like the 75% tax idea. It's mainly just demagogy (not one side has the monopole for demagogy) edit: the video shows Mr Copé arguing that raising taxes will make rich people leave France. You never see him argue that it's a bad idea to try to tax people who do this. I'd like to remind you that the tax idea is a tax on income and not capital (as it's impossible to tax capital in a foreign country). So when Mr Mélanchon says he will raise taxes in France, then get the money back by taxing people abroad we try to leave France, this is a half lie because he'll never be able to get back the capital that has left France. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:02 Geiko wrote: That's a smart idea. Mélanchon brought up this idea a couple of years back, then forgot about it. When Sarkozy brought it up again, both him and Hollande inserted it in their program. The idea is that, if you are abroad, you still "owe" something to France, because French nationality gives you rights (social aids, retirements etc...). The only risk is that people will give up their nationality, but since those people already don't pay taxes in France, we're not using money. In reality however, this idea will never see practical applications, much like the 75% tax idea. It's mainly just demagogy (not one side has the monopole for demagogy) This idea is a lot more applicable than the 75% tax : it's more or less what the US does, while the 75% tax is very likely to be cancelled by the Conseil Constitutionnel. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:04 corumjhaelen wrote: This idea is a lot more applicable than the 75% tax : it's more or less what the US does, while the 75% tax is very likely to be cancelled by the Conseil Constitutionnel. It's true that it is more applicable, and Hollande got it right (for once) when he said we would need to focus on partnerships with Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland in order to make it work. Everyone agrees however that it has a limited scope due to, as I've said previously, the fact that this is a tax on income and not on capital. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:02 Geiko wrote: That's a smart idea. Mélanchon brought up this idea a couple of years back, then forgot about it. When Sarkozy brought it up again, both him and Hollande inserted it in their program. The idea is that, if you are abroad, you still "owe" something to France, because French nationality gives you rights (social aids, retirements etc...). The only risk is that people will give up their nationality, but since those people already don't pay taxes in France, we're not using money. In reality however, this idea will never see practical applications, much like the 75% tax idea. It's mainly just demagogy (not one side has the monopole for demagogy) No, Sarkozy just brought this idea 2 weeks ago while Melenchon has been saying this everywhere for the last year. You should watch more political shows. Surili, yes that's how it works. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:09 chuky500 wrote: No, Sarkozy just brought this idea 2 weeks ago while Melenchon has been saying this everywhere for the last year. You should watch more political shows. Surili, yes that's how it works. I'm willing to bet 1 Million Esport $ that I've watched more political shows then you in the past year  No need for ad hominems in this thread please ^^Mélanchon came up with it first but has only just recently been talking about it a lot more since Sarkozy used it in his program. Even then, I fail to see how noting who came up with it first is in any way relevant ? Unless you can find a video of Sarkozy publicly saying that it's a bad idea ? | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:16 chuky500 wrote: How come you wrote everywhere that rich would flea France because of taxes if you already knew about this idea ? Let me explain once more: If you raise taxes (160 Billions € additional taxes in Mélanchon's program), rich people will leave France. That's an economic certainty (as well as the fact that it will be horrible for french growth and productivity...). Saying that you will get all that money back by taxing abroad is a lie, because you can only tax income and not capital. Rich people pay the majority of their taxes in form of ISF (tax on important capital) and other capital related tax (impots sur le patrimoine) and very little in the form of income tax (rich people usually have the means to lower their salary, or evade this tax if it is too important). On March 21 2012 00:16 chuky500 wrote: You're wrong about Mélenchon forgetting about this idea because first it's written in his program and 2nd he mentioned it in every single show he was in. How is this important ? | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:21 Geiko wrote: Let me explain once more: If you raise taxes (160 Billions € additional taxes in Mélanchon's program), rich people will leave France. That's an economic certainty (as well as the fact that it will be horrible for french growth and productivity...). Saying that you will get all that money back by taxing abroad is a lie, because you can only tax income and not capital. Rich people pay the majority of their taxes in form of ISF (tax on important capital) and other capital related tax (impots sur le patrimoine) and very little in the form of income tax (rich people usually have the means to lower their salary, or evade this tax if it is too important). How is this important ? It became improtant when you bet 1 million esports $ | ||
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LeLfe
France3160 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:25 chuky500 wrote: It became improtant when you bet 1 million esports $ 1 million is quite a wager | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10776 Posts
Sweden/Denmark and others with expensive high taxbrackets seem to do really fucking terrible and everyone there seems to be miserable..... Tip: If the only thing that is keeping rich people in your country are low taxes then you allready failed. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:25 chuky500 wrote: It became improtant when you bet 1 million esports $ I've literally watched over 24 hours of political debates over the past 2 weeks. I sat through all 3 of Sarkozy big meetings speechs, 2 of Hollands, 1 of Lepen, Mélanchon and Bayrou. In addition to which I have seen most of the "Des paroles et des Actes" (2 of Bayrou, 1 of Sarkozy, 1 of Hollande, 1 of Lepen, and half of Mélanchon's). Edit: I also forgot about the funny ones on TF1 where citizen's ask questions, I saw Sarkozy's, and half of Hollande's, as well as excerpts from Mélanchon's. When it's not electoral periods, I check at least once a week for intersting speechs at the sénat and asssemblée. I've also gone through the whole of the boring "Primaires Socialistes".Probably more than you have in the past year, so there, I won 1 Millions esport $. Now that I've shown you my e-penis is bigger than yours (...), would care to move on to another subject ? On March 21 2012 00:32 Velr wrote: I like this fairy tale of "high taxes making rich people go away so countries become poor"... Sweden/Denmark and others with expensive high taxbrackets seem to do really fucking terrible and everyone there seems to be miserable..... Tip: If the only thing that is keeping rich people in your country are low taxes then you allready failed. Then again, you're from switzerland where very rich people actually pay less tax then middle class people (I should know...) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10776 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
You have to somehow tax the rich more than the poor, the poor can't really take more than that >< there's like no good solution :D poor unhappy and poorer, rich unhappy and leaving. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:36 Velr wrote: Yeah, and it's wrong/bad... And also has nothing to do with this topic? Why do you think no ones try to correct this injustice and raise the taxes for rich people ? I'll give you the answer: because all of the canton's are afraid that the rich would leave to another canton (taxes are determined regionally fo the most part and not nationally in Switzerland). Do you think the canton of Geneva for example have "failed" (your words) at everything else when they propose ridiculously low "forfait fiscaux" to the extremely wealthy tax payers ? I would say this has a lot to do with the topic as it directly underlines the fact that rich people have no problem moving somewhere else when taxes become too important. | ||
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colate
Norway121 Posts
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Isken
Korea (South)1131 Posts
On March 21 2012 00:43 colate wrote: Jean-Marie Le Pen sounds familiar to me. Doesn't he support the ideas of right extremists? I think I recall he 'supported' the ideas of Anders Bering Breivik (22.July massacre in Norway) but not the killing spree itself. It would be coherent with his stance (not the killing obv). Denouncing the danger of immigration and... and can't say more or else It'll be my political opinion which has no place here :p | ||
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